Australian Politics Forum - Nietzsche Was Right: There Is No Right and Wrong

Lisa Jones

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Re: Nietzsche Was Right: There Is No Right and Wrong
Reply #30 - Jul 2^nd, 2015 at 7:22pm

Soren wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2015 at 7:09pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2015 at 9:27am:

Soren wrote on Mar 12^th, 2015 at 12:56pm:

Quote:

Nietzsche Was Right: There Is No Right and Wrong

That's rights!!!

No, wait... that's wrong!

No, wait....

Nietzsche was sure he was right when he said there is no right or wrong and anyone who thought otherwise was sure to be wrong.

No wonder his mind collapsed at the sight of a suffering horse (a wrong)

Is that why he died a pathetic and insane reclusive nutter?

Well, that is imposed hindsight I couldn't resist. Actually he was a syphilitic and that's what made him mad and eventually killed him.
But a suffering horse breaking his heart is both a deeply moving event and testament to his solidly humane and good qualities as a person - and also a tragically telling refutation of his lucid ideas.
I have taken to heart only one of his many excellent aphorisms: a pupil repays his master poorly if he remains a pupil.
So I am not a pupil of Nietzsche.
And am.

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: Nietzsche Was Right: There Is No Right and Wrong
Reply #31 - Jul 2^nd, 2015 at 9:03pm

Soren wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2015 at 7:06pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2015 at 6:40pm:

Nietzsche isn't all bad. His criticisms of equality are spot on.

Not a thing you can say if you accept what is nothing more than a linguistic paradox that he was taken in by: there is no right or wrong.

He also said that there are no such things as facts, only interpretations, which is the same sort of elegant-looking quip that appeals to the young and young at heart but which turns out to be a load of nonsense.

Johnson refuted Bishop Berkeley's similar relativising attempts by kicking a stone, demonstrating that facts, like material objects, exist. Nietzsche didn't read Boswell.

Given that morality has changed over time, a point he shows in On the Genealogy of Morals, it is hard to argue a case for objective, absolute morality.

Nietzsche's point could be refuted by his own hand - that there are only interpretations and not facts - but this would only reaffirm his stance that morality isn't stagnant.

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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: Nietzsche Was Right: There Is No Right and Wrong
Reply #32 - Jul 2^nd, 2015 at 9:17pm

He doesn't say an unequal society can be proven objectively; he can only argue the point that it's preferable. And he does so by arguing that it's the artists, great statesmen, thinkers, and leaders that make cultural greatness. Equality leads to the bottom dwellers, who create nothing and inspire no one, deciding everyone should be equal to them.

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Soren

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Re: Nietzsche Was Right: There Is No Right and Wrong
Reply #33 - Jul 2^nd, 2015 at 9:52pm

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2015 at 9:03pm:

Soren wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2015 at 7:06pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2015 at 6:40pm:

Nietzsche isn't all bad. His criticisms of equality are spot on.

Not a thing you can say if you accept what is nothing more than a linguistic paradox that he was taken in by: there is no right or wrong.

He also said that there are no such things as facts, only interpretations, which is the same sort of elegant-looking quip that appeals to the young and young at heart but which turns out to be a load of nonsense.

Johnson refuted Bishop Berkeley's similar relativising attempts by kicking a stone, demonstrating that facts, like material objects, exist. Nietzsche didn't read Boswell.

Given that morality has changed over time, a point he shows in On the Genealogy of Morals, it is hard to argue a case for objective, absolute morality.

Nietzsche's point could be refuted by his own hand - that there are only interpretations and not facts - but this would only reaffirm his stance that morality isn't stagnant.

Morality is NOT changing. Antigone, the Iliad, the story of the taming of Enkidu, the Bible, Marcus Aurelius, Boethius, Julius Caesar, etc would be meaningless to us if morality was really changing over time.

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Emma

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Re: Nietzsche Was Right: There Is No Right and Wrong
Reply #34 - Jul 2^nd, 2015 at 10:06pm

Soren wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2015 at 6:59pm:

Emma wrote on Jul 1^st, 2015 at 9:58pm:

Soren wrote on Jul 1^st, 2015 at 10:20am:

Emma wrote on Jun 28^th, 2015 at 1:43am:

there is no right or wrong. Only thinking makes it so.

I've thought about that quite a lot over the years. I came to agree. It is all relative to the circumstances.

Ah, there is no right or wrong, only relativised self-regard and self-referential subjectivity.
But it is wrong.
You could not have a justice system if this tosh was actually true, or a functioning transport or education or industrial system.

This is so.
Perhaps ..I mean everything can be right or wrong, depending on your cultural norms.
For example, I think locking up refugees like POWs is wrong, but Abbott and Co. think it is right.
I think freedom of choice is right, but Abbott and Co. think it is wrong.

I think owning weapons for personal protection is right, but others think it is wrong.

Get the idea.?

I think it is a good example of contemporary narcissism. There is an element of purported generosity and open-mindedness to it but in reality it is faked.
It is really an inability to accept that you may be wrong and judging things by your own lights may not be the best way. Take your own sign off, for example. Piss off , please, you say, and then post "I mean everything can be right or wrong, depending on your cultural norms".

The worst thing about this narcissism, though, is that it relativises good arguments just as much as it does bad ones and so there is no accepted and shared grounds of reasoning that would allow the distinction.

And if we do not have a shared, common ground of discourse whereby ideas can be weighed and judged, total fragmentation and atomisation of society is just around the corner.But for narcissists that is a price worth paying. To them any price is worth paying.

Soren, we have already turned that corner. Look around you, and realise this is so.

Right or wrong no longer exists in our reality. Australian 'culture' shows this is true. Is it wrong? is it right?

No-one really knows, and most people simply don't care anymore.
Morality? Depends on who has power. Power does not equal morality. I think morality is a harmful concept, because it is based on social mores.

Ethics , on the other hand, holds more gravitas, but no-one talks about ethics either. We live in a wasteland of conflicting opinion, not fact.

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Yadda

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Re: Nietzsche Was Right: There Is No Right and Wrong
Reply #35 - Jul 2^nd, 2015 at 10:38pm

Emma wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2015 at 10:06pm:

Soren wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2015 at 6:59pm:

Emma wrote on Jul 1^st, 2015 at 9:58pm:

Soren wrote on Jul 1^st, 2015 at 10:20am:

Emma wrote on Jun 28^th, 2015 at 1:43am:

there is no right or wrong. Only thinking makes it so.

I've thought about that quite a lot over the years. I came to agree. It is all relative to the circumstances.

Ah, there is no right or wrong, only relativised self-regard and self-referential subjectivity.
But it is wrong.
You could not have a justice system if this tosh was actually true, or a functioning transport or education or industrial system.

This is so.
Perhaps ..I mean everything can be right or wrong, depending on your cultural norms.
For example, I think locking up refugees like POWs is wrong, but Abbott and Co. think it is right.
I think freedom of choice is right, but Abbott and Co. think it is wrong.

I think owning weapons for personal protection is right, but others think it is wrong.

Get the idea.?

I think it is a good example of contemporary narcissism. There is an element of purported generosity and open-mindedness to it but in reality it is faked.
It is really an inability to accept that you may be wrong and judging things by your own lights may not be the best way. Take your own sign off, for example. Piss off , please, you say, and then post "I mean everything can be right or wrong, depending on your cultural norms".

The worst thing about this narcissism, though, is that it relativises good arguments just as much as it does bad ones and so there is no accepted and shared grounds of reasoning that would allow the distinction.

And if we do not have a shared, common ground of discourse whereby ideas can be weighed and judged, total fragmentation and atomisation of society is just around the corner.But for narcissists that is a price worth paying. To them any price is worth paying.

Soren, we have already turned that corner. Look around you, and realise this is so.

Right or wrong no longer exists in our reality. Australian 'culture' shows this is true.

Is it wrong? is it right?

No-one really knows, and most people simply don't care anymore.

Morality? Depends on who has power.

Power does not equal morality. I think morality is a harmful concept, because it is based on social mores.

Ethics , on the other hand, holds more gravitas,

but no-one talks about ethics either.

We live in a wasteland of conflicting opinion, not fact.

Emma Peel,

Whether we individually acknowledge the fact, or reject it, we live in a world and a culture today, where increasingly, individuals reject the idea of accountability, for their choices.

e.g.
'Everyone else should be 'good', But its OK if i break community rules [laws].'

Emma Peel,

You stated;
"Morality? Depends on who has power."

e.g.
'If i can break [ignore] the laws of society, and i can get away with it, then what is the problem!!'

Yadda says;

I'm mean, that is how wild animals behave!!

Yadda says;

There is right, and there is wrong.

And if you are a human being, then you know what the difference between the two, is.

Proverbs 14:12
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Matthew 7:12
Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

.

What follows, the world hates ------- >

Love God....
Keep his commandments...

Exodus 20:6
And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Exodus 34:6
And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Deuteronomy 5:10
And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

Deuteronomy 7:9
Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
10 And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.

Deuteronomy 7:12
Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers:

1 Kings 8:23
And he said, LORD God of Israel, there is no God like thee, in heaven above, or on earth beneath, who keepest covenant and mercy with thy servants that walk before thee with all their heart:

Nehemiah 1:5
And said, I beseech thee, O LORD God of heaven, the great and terrible God, that keepeth covenant and mercy for them that love him and observe his commandments:

Psalms 25:10
All the paths of the LORD are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies.

Is it evil, to seek God ?

Many men, say it is both futile and worthless.

That, is their choice.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Emma

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Re: Nietzsche Was Right: There Is No Right and Wrong
Reply #36 - Jul 2^nd, 2015 at 11:13pm

sorry Yadda BUT

God is not in my reality. Yadda wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2015 at 10:38pm:

Emma Peel,

You stated;
"Morality? Depends on who has power."

e.g.
'If i can break [ignore] the laws of society, and i can get away with it, then what is the problem!!'

Yadda says;
I'm mean, that is how wild animals behave!!

Perhaps I play the 'devil's advocate' here.

Personally I live by what I believe is the correct path. I do no harm, and wish no harm, on people, or animals.
Whatever their transgressions against Law.
Law is made by individuals, just as God is created by individuals. Everyone has their own idea of GOD, as written in the Holy BOOK to which they cleve.

IMO there IS NO BOOK that reigns supreme. Your Christian faith no doubt gives you solace. I live my own life. I try the best I can, but I will NOT give over my free will to any GOD.

Don't bother preaching to me or quoting from YOUR sacerd text.
It means nothing except the animal need to belong to a particular tribe.
I am a human.

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Emma

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Re: Nietzsche Was Right: There Is No Right and Wrong
Reply #37 - Jul 2^nd, 2015 at 11:22pm

Oh .. one exception.. if someone seeks to harm me, or mine, I will stand up and do my best to negate their power.

Power does seek to rule all.. whether it is wealth or physical advantage. Or even moralistic rubbish that says everyone has to agree with me or be damned.

TOUGH. I don't agree with that. I'll stand up and fight for my right to be MYSELF.

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Yadda

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Re: Nietzsche Was Right: There Is No Right and Wrong
Reply #38 - Jul 2^nd, 2015 at 11:32pm

Emma wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2015 at 11:13pm:

sorry Yadda BUT

God is not in my reality. Yadda wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2015 at 10:38pm:

Emma Peel,

You stated;
"Morality? Depends on who has power."

e.g.
'If i can break [ignore] the laws of society, and i can get away with it, then what is the problem!!'

Yadda says;
I'm mean, that is how wild animals behave!!

Perhaps I play the 'devil's advocate' here.

Personally I live by what I believe is the correct path. I do no harm, and wish no harm, on people, or animals.
Whatever their transgressions against Law.
Law is made by individuals, just as God is created by individuals. Everyone has their own idea of GOD, as written in the Holy BOOK to which they cleve.

IMO there IS NO BOOK that reigns supreme. Your Christian faith no doubt gives you solace. I live my own life. I try the best I can, but I will NOT give over my free will to any GOD.

Don't bother preaching to me or quoting from YOUR sacerd text.
It means nothing except the animal need to belong to a particular tribe.

I am a human.

You are correct.

I can see, that i do belong to a 'tribe', of sorts, that i am choosing to belong to a 'tribe', of sorts.

And i have always considered myself to be an individual.

And i choose to live in the world, alone.

But not alone.

Because yes, i do belong to something bigger than myself, and that 'something', is not the 'zeitgeist' of mankind.

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« Last Edit: Jul 2^nd, 2015 at 11:38pm by Yadda »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Emma

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Re: Nietzsche Was Right: There Is No Right and Wrong
Reply #39 - Jul 2^nd, 2015 at 11:41pm

thanks for your reply.

But Yadda .. you choose to be alone? , but not alone ?
Yadda wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2015 at 11:32pm:

Because yes, i do belong to something bigger than myself, and that 'something', is not the 'zeitgeist' of mankind.

Well, if not, then what? do you belong to.?..

GOD is man-made. You couldn't be more a part of the human 'zeitgeist', if you choose a GOD to rule your life.

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Yadda

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Re: Nietzsche Was Right: There Is No Right and Wrong
Reply #40 - Jul 2^nd, 2015 at 11:59pm

Emma wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2015 at 11:41pm:

thanks for your reply.

But Yadda .. you choose to be alone? , but not alone ?
Yadda wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2015 at 11:32pm:

Because yes, i do belong to something bigger than myself, and that 'something', is not the 'zeitgeist' of mankind.

Well, if not, then what? do you belong to.?..

Emma Peel,

In answer, i invite you to judge me.

Do i belong to one of the two groups - in the 'definition' presented below ? ------- >

If yes, which one would you assign me to ?

You do not have to reveal it, if you do not want to.

Quote:

A simple definition of SANITY/INSANITY.

Typically, an unrestrained sane person will act in ways which are harmless to others, and in ways which are creative, and productive [for himself, others, and society].

And typically, and conversely, an unrestrained INSANE person will act in ways which are harmful and destructive to himself, and, or, others around him.

'Normal' criminal behaviour - in mankind
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1293669294/0#0

Emma wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2015 at 11:41pm:

GOD is man-made. You couldn't be more a part of the human 'zeitgeist', if you choose a GOD to rule your life.

If that is your opinion, you are entitled to it.

My opinion does not coincide with yours.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Emma Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9853 OZ Gender:	Re: Nietzsche Was Right: There Is No Right and Wrong Reply #41 - Jul 3^rd, 2015 at 12:18am We live in a wasteland of conflicting opinion, not fact. As to judging you..? Not my job. You can believe whatever you like. It is a free world after all.
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Yadda

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Re: Nietzsche Was Right: There Is No Right and Wrong
Reply #42 - Jul 3^rd, 2015 at 12:27am

Emma wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2015 at 12:18am:

We live in a wasteland of conflicting opinion, not fact.

As to judging you..?

Not my job.
You can believe whatever you like.

It is a free world after all.

Not free, and not sane, imo.

'We live in a wasteland of conflicting opinion.'

.

Psalms 23:1
The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Emma Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9853 OZ Gender:	Re: Nietzsche Was Right: There Is No Right and Wrong Reply #43 - Jul 3^rd, 2015 at 12:50am like I said already, you are welcome to your opinion. I would agree that , in most respects, humans act like the societies in which we live are insane. Hence humans are generally, insane.
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Amadd Gold Member Offline Mo Posts: 6217	Re: Nietzsche Was Right: There Is No Right and Wrong Reply #44 - Jul 3^rd, 2015 at 1:22am Then, there is perspective on offer. Look after you and your own. If there is anything left over, then look after others.
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