Australian Politics Forum - South Australia: massive oil reserves discovered

longweekend58

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Re: South Australia: massive oil reserves discovered
Reply #75 - Jan 20^th, 2015 at 11:08am

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jan 20^th, 2015 at 11:03am:

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 20^th, 2015 at 9:52am:

Swagman wrote on Jan 20^th, 2015 at 8:22am:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jan 20^th, 2015 at 8:12am:

Who has the largest sovereign fund in the world again? Why?

Oil is a totally different commodity to iron ore and coal. It's highly inelastic demand and scarcity means that exorbitant super profit taxes do not scare away capital investment.

it is worth noting that the high taxes Norway imposes has currently rendered their oil industry unprofitable. Oil may be inelastic but that is changing. the massive increases in the quantity of retrievable oil has sent prices down and made it a buyers market. you really CAN tax an oil industry away and we need to keep that in mind.

and yet they have a $700B sovereign wealth fund. Talk all you want, the benefits are staring you right in the face. And all you can do is blabber about how Costello managed to finally pull Howard's fingers away from the coffers just long enough in order to save just a bit of what was possible if not for the lying rodent wasting it all away in order to stay elected.

so what? They have had a highly profitable oil industry and they saved from it. We had a profitable mining industry and we banked $230B from it. Which other govt has created a fund like that? Only Howard.

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Melanias purse

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Re: South Australia: massive oil reserves discovered
Reply #76 - Jan 20^th, 2015 at 11:12am

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 20^th, 2015 at 11:04am:

Melanias purse wrote on Jan 20^th, 2015 at 10:40am:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 20^th, 2015 at 9:24am:

Melanias purse wrote on Jan 20^th, 2015 at 9:16am:

John Smith wrote on Jan 20^th, 2015 at 8:34am:

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 20^th, 2015 at 8:03am:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jan 19^th, 2015 at 8:41pm:

What needs to happen today is for nonstop documentaries about Norway being aired on South Australian tvs, showing how to really benefit from oil.

Or they can take the small trickle down approach swampie is suggesting.

You mean like the $104B sovereign wealth fund we have now courtesy of John Howard? I agree that much of the massive royalties from this should go to a sovereign wealth fund. I wonder if WA will be pushing for their GST reform if this all comes to fruition in the next 5 years?

104B? where'd that number come from?

It comes from the money federal employees put into their super fund. Longy explained it all the other day.

He's now changed the maths (language?) to a "sovereign wealth fund".

Not bad, eh?

Is that the cash stored in the Caymans that is allegedly meant to cover the politician and public servant superannuation schemes - but at the drop of a government could suddenly become a slush fund for expatriate politicians fleeing the guillotine?

Hardly 'our' sovereign slush fund, is it?

Hardly. Kudos to Longy though - he's managed to turn a federal employee super fund into a national sovereign wealth fund.

If you read the constitution of the Future Fund you will see that it is a Superannuation fund UNTIL SUCH time as that obligation is covered or until 2020 at which time it turns into a Sovereign Wealth Fund. Amazing what a bit of reading will do for ignorance.

Are you changing the subject because no oil reserves have been discovered, Longy?

Good work.

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longweekend58

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Re: South Australia: massive oil reserves discovered
Reply #77 - Jan 20^th, 2015 at 11:18am

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jan 20^th, 2015 at 11:08am:

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 20^th, 2015 at 11:04am:

it is a Superannuation fund UNTIL SUCH time as that obligation is covered or until 2020 at which time it turns into a Sovereign Wealth Fund.

Then call it what it actually is until it changes.

Who knows what will happen to the world economy in the next 5 years.

It was at 107 Bil in 2013 33 bil short of it 2020 target, but with commodities coming off the boil, well halving in value a loss could well be posted this year.

IM guessing I am the only one on here who even knew it. But I do find it entertaining how the usual suspects routinely blame howard for basically everything - including things he didn't do - and then blame him for things he should have done and then find out he did anyhow.

Your standards are not only very high but hopelessly hypocritical. You have to not only DO but also NOT DO the same think to win praise.

Clearly the best PM is a quantum object that can have both states at once.

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sir prince duke alevine

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Re: South Australia: massive oil reserves discovered
Reply #78 - Jan 20^th, 2015 at 11:23am

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 20^th, 2015 at 11:08am:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jan 20^th, 2015 at 11:03am:

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 20^th, 2015 at 9:52am:

Swagman wrote on Jan 20^th, 2015 at 8:22am:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jan 20^th, 2015 at 8:12am:

Who has the largest sovereign fund in the world again? Why?

Oil is a totally different commodity to iron ore and coal. It's highly inelastic demand and scarcity means that exorbitant super profit taxes do not scare away capital investment.

it is worth noting that the high taxes Norway imposes has currently rendered their oil industry unprofitable. Oil may be inelastic but that is changing. the massive increases in the quantity of retrievable oil has sent prices down and made it a buyers market. you really CAN tax an oil industry away and we need to keep that in mind.

and yet they have a $700B sovereign wealth fund. Talk all you want, the benefits are staring you right in the face. And all you can do is blabber about how Costello managed to finally pull Howard's fingers away from the coffers just long enough in order to save just a bit of what was possible if not for the lying rodent wasting it all away in order to stay elected.

so what? They have had a highly profitable oil industry and they saved from it. We had a profitable mining industry and we banked $230B from it. Which other govt has created a fund like that? Only Howard.

So, not only did they sit around and just be satisfied with taking corporate taxes from the funds, but you know what they did? Surprise, surprise - they incorporated an OIL TAX. And all the funds went into a SOVEREIGN FUND. Not the corporate taxes - just the OIL TAX. $700 B!!!

We had a MASSIVE boom. Larger than Norway's oil boom. Imagine what we would've pocketed? Oh wait..I forgot - Gina would moved to Somalia had it happened, and we'd have no one mining. Yeah right Grin

The lying rodent presided over the biggest boom we've ever had, and what did he do? Nothing! It took Costello to save just a small portion of what would've been possible had we not had the biggest economic illiterate as PM.

And All I'm saying is that if we get the oil found in SA, we'd be wise to do the same as Norway, and not just worry about the pittance we'd receive in corporate tax, while international companies pillage the rest.

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Melanias purse

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Re: South Australia: massive oil reserves discovered
Reply #79 - Jan 20^th, 2015 at 11:25am

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jan 20^th, 2015 at 11:08am:

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 20^th, 2015 at 11:04am:

it is a Superannuation fund UNTIL SUCH time as that obligation is covered or until 2020 at which time it turns into a Sovereign Wealth Fund.

Then call it what it actually is until it changes.

Why? The PMO can rebrand these things however they want. It's simple maths.

Longy has spelled it out for us again, thank God. If the idiots refuse to listen, that's their problem.

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Melanias purse

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Re: South Australia: massive oil reserves discovered
Reply #80 - Jan 20^th, 2015 at 11:26am

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 20^th, 2015 at 11:18am:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jan 20^th, 2015 at 11:08am:

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 20^th, 2015 at 11:04am:

it is a Superannuation fund UNTIL SUCH time as that obligation is covered or until 2020 at which time it turns into a Sovereign Wealth Fund.

Then call it what it actually is until it changes.

Who knows what will happen to the world economy in the next 5 years.

It was at 107 Bil in 2013 33 bil short of it 2020 target, but with commodities coming off the boil, well halving in value a loss could well be posted this year.

IM guessing I am the only one on here who even knew it.

You were, Longy. Most helpful.

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Dsmithy70

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Re: South Australia: massive oil reserves discovered
Reply #81 - Jan 20^th, 2015 at 11:27am

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 20^th, 2015 at 11:18am:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jan 20^th, 2015 at 11:08am:

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 20^th, 2015 at 11:04am:

it is a Superannuation fund UNTIL SUCH time as that obligation is covered or until 2020 at which time it turns into a Sovereign Wealth Fund.

Then call it what it actually is until it changes.

Who knows what will happen to the world economy in the next 5 years.

It was at 107 Bil in 2013 33 bil short of it 2020 target, but with commodities coming off the boil, well halving in value a loss could well be posted this year.

IM guessing I am the only one on here who even knew it. But I do find it entertaining how the usual suspects routinely blame howard for basically everything - including things he didn't do - and then blame him for things he should have done and then find out he did anyhow.

Your standards are not only very high but hopelessly hypocritical. You have to not only DO but also NOT DO the same think to win praise.

Clearly the best PM is a quantum object that can have both states at once.

Then you'd be guessing wrong.

The fact remains until 2020 or 140 billion is the principle it remains a super fund.(

Im not involved in the Howard stuff & try not to be drawn into it.

But hey seeing as we are boasting about "Nation Building" lets seeing you pat Swan on the back

Quote:

In the 2008 Australian federal budget, the Treasurer, Wayne Swan announced that three new funds are to be established, to be managed by the Future Fundt:[2]

Building Australia Fund – An infrastructure fund to improve and create major infrastructure projects (including road, rail, ports and broadband) with an initial allocation of A$20 billion. At 31 December 2013, it was valued at A$4.28 billion.

Health and Hospitals Fund – A health infrastructure fund to provide increased spending on hospitals, medical equipment etc. with an initial allocation of A$10 billion. At 31 December 2013, it was valued at A$2.61 billion.

Education Investment Fund – A fund to provide capital investment in higher education and vocational education and training, with an initial allocation of around A$11 billion; including A$6 billion from the Higher Education Endowment Fund, of which it absorbs. At 31 December 2013, it was valued at A$3.91 billion.

DisabilityCare Australia Fund – A fund to fund the National Disability Insurance Scheme. The Fund is to receive contributions from the increase in the medicare levy by 0.5% to a total of 2% from 1 July 2014.

Careful remember

Quote:

The fund's investment decisions are made at arm's length from the executive.

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Melanias purse

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Re: South Australia: massive oil reserves discovered
Reply #82 - Jan 20^th, 2015 at 11:31am

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jan 20^th, 2015 at 11:23am:

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 20^th, 2015 at 11:08am:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jan 20^th, 2015 at 11:03am:

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 20^th, 2015 at 9:52am:

Swagman wrote on Jan 20^th, 2015 at 8:22am:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jan 20^th, 2015 at 8:12am:

Who has the largest sovereign fund in the world again? Why?

Oil is a totally different commodity to iron ore and coal. It's highly inelastic demand and scarcity means that exorbitant super profit taxes do not scare away capital investment.

it is worth noting that the high taxes Norway imposes has currently rendered their oil industry unprofitable. Oil may be inelastic but that is changing. the massive increases in the quantity of retrievable oil has sent prices down and made it a buyers market. you really CAN tax an oil industry away and we need to keep that in mind.

and yet they have a $700B sovereign wealth fund. Talk all you want, the benefits are staring you right in the face. And all you can do is blabber about how Costello managed to finally pull Howard's fingers away from the coffers just long enough in order to save just a bit of what was possible if not for the lying rodent wasting it all away in order to stay elected.

so what? They have had a highly profitable oil industry and they saved from it. We had a profitable mining industry and we banked $230B from it. Which other govt has created a fund like that? Only Howard.

So, not only did they sit around and just be satisfied with taking corporate taxes from the funds, but you know what they did? Surprise, surprise - they incorporated an OIL TAX. And all the funds went into a SOVEREIGN FUND. Not the corporate taxes - just the OIL TAX. $700 B!!!

We had a MASSIVE boom. Larger than Norway's oil boom. Imagine what we would've pocketed? Oh wait..I forgot - Gina would moved to Somalia had it happened, and we'd have no one mining. Yeah right Grin

The lying rodent presided over the biggest boom we've ever had, and what did he do? Nothing! It took Costello to save just a small portion of what would've been possible had we not had the biggest economic illiterate as PM.

And All I'm saying is that if we get the oil found in SA, we'd be wise to do the same as Norway

Leftard nonsense. The oil is the solution to Mr Abbott's revenue problems. It's black gold.

Once they discover it, they'll issue a license to drill it up, and in 20 years time, when the oil flows, all Mr Abbott's problems will be over.

Hang in there, leftards. Keep voting Liberal. The solution is just around the corner.

Like the sovereign wealth fund that, in 2020, will be a federal super fund again.

Thank heavens the grown-ups are back in charge.

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longweekend58

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Re: South Australia: massive oil reserves discovered
Reply #83 - Jan 20^th, 2015 at 11:46am

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jan 20^th, 2015 at 11:23am:

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 20^th, 2015 at 11:08am:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jan 20^th, 2015 at 11:03am:

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 20^th, 2015 at 9:52am:

Swagman wrote on Jan 20^th, 2015 at 8:22am:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jan 20^th, 2015 at 8:12am:

Who has the largest sovereign fund in the world again? Why?

Oil is a totally different commodity to iron ore and coal. It's highly inelastic demand and scarcity means that exorbitant super profit taxes do not scare away capital investment.

it is worth noting that the high taxes Norway imposes has currently rendered their oil industry unprofitable. Oil may be inelastic but that is changing. the massive increases in the quantity of retrievable oil has sent prices down and made it a buyers market. you really CAN tax an oil industry away and we need to keep that in mind.

and yet they have a $700B sovereign wealth fund. Talk all you want, the benefits are staring you right in the face. And all you can do is blabber about how Costello managed to finally pull Howard's fingers away from the coffers just long enough in order to save just a bit of what was possible if not for the lying rodent wasting it all away in order to stay elected.

so what? They have had a highly profitable oil industry and they saved from it. We had a profitable mining industry and we banked $230B from it. Which other govt has created a fund like that? Only Howard.

So, not only did they sit around and just be satisfied with taking corporate taxes from the funds, but you know what they did? Surprise, surprise - they incorporated an OIL TAX. And all the funds went into a SOVEREIGN FUND. Not the corporate taxes - just the OIL TAX. $700 B!!!

We had a MASSIVE boom. Larger than Norway's oil boom. Imagine what we would've pocketed? Oh wait..I forgot - Gina would moved to Somalia had it happened, and we'd have no one mining. Yeah right Grin

The lying rodent presided over the biggest boom we've ever had, and what did he do? Nothing! It took Costello to save just a small portion of what would've been possible had we not had the biggest economic illiterate as PM.

And All I'm saying is that if we get the oil found in SA, we'd be wise to do the same as Norway, and not just worry about the pittance we'd receive in corporate tax, while international companies pillage the rest.

you persist on pretending that oil is like every other mineral when it clearly is not. it is (or at least was) a super-important commodity in huge demand which was not found in many places and its demand is inelastic - unlike iron ore and coal. if the mining boom had continued, our budget would be $200B better off. If we hadn't had to put up with the rudd/gillard shambles we could have been another $100B-$200B better off. There is another $400B we could have had. but mining IS subject to ebbs and flows and elastic demand.

and as for the 'pittance' in company tax you need to learn that our company tax rate is among the highest in the world.

Australia doesn't have an oil export industry - yet. So we have to work with what we have and to date the ONLY govt to ever save money, especially hundreds of Billions, was Howard. and the biggest spender by far - BY FAR - was Rudd and Gillard.

you need to accept that Howard did a damned fine job which is why you wont find labor criticising him very much. Instead, it is boofheads like you doing it.

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Swagman

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Re: South Australia: massive oil reserves discovered
Reply #84 - Jan 20^th, 2015 at 12:08pm

Melanias purse wrote on Jan 20^th, 2015 at 11:31am:

Leftard nonsense. The oil is the solution to Mr Abbott's revenue problems. It's black gold.

Texas Tea?

On the contrary..........oil would be Lefty Utopia.....a real bottomless Treasury (or the closest thing to it)

Pork Barrel heaven.,,, Cheesy

Hey Aust could join the OPEC cartel and then our Labour cartels (Unions) would have some extra comrades to play with Wink

They could discuss anti-competition tactics until the cows come home... Cheesy

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St George of the Garden Gold Member Offline http://tinyurl.com/n 3o8m2x Posts: 9809 Gender:	Re: South Australia: massive oil reserves discovered Reply #85 - Jan 20^th, 2015 at 12:14pm Where is that $230Bn fund, Longy? Nowhere? Thought so.
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sir prince duke alevine

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Re: South Australia: massive oil reserves discovered
Reply #86 - Jan 20^th, 2015 at 12:14pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 20^th, 2015 at 11:46am:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jan 20^th, 2015 at 11:23am:

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 20^th, 2015 at 11:08am:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jan 20^th, 2015 at 11:03am:

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 20^th, 2015 at 9:52am:

Swagman wrote on Jan 20^th, 2015 at 8:22am:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jan 20^th, 2015 at 8:12am:

Who has the largest sovereign fund in the world again? Why?

Oil is a totally different commodity to iron ore and coal. It's highly inelastic demand and scarcity means that exorbitant super profit taxes do not scare away capital investment.

it is worth noting that the high taxes Norway imposes has currently rendered their oil industry unprofitable. Oil may be inelastic but that is changing. the massive increases in the quantity of retrievable oil has sent prices down and made it a buyers market. you really CAN tax an oil industry away and we need to keep that in mind.

and yet they have a $700B sovereign wealth fund. Talk all you want, the benefits are staring you right in the face. And all you can do is blabber about how Costello managed to finally pull Howard's fingers away from the coffers just long enough in order to save just a bit of what was possible if not for the lying rodent wasting it all away in order to stay elected.

so what? They have had a highly profitable oil industry and they saved from it. We had a profitable mining industry and we banked $230B from it. Which other govt has created a fund like that? Only Howard.

So, not only did they sit around and just be satisfied with taking corporate taxes from the funds, but you know what they did? Surprise, surprise - they incorporated an OIL TAX. And all the funds went into a SOVEREIGN FUND. Not the corporate taxes - just the OIL TAX. $700 B!!!

We had a MASSIVE boom. Larger than Norway's oil boom. Imagine what we would've pocketed? Oh wait..I forgot - Gina would moved to Somalia had it happened, and we'd have no one mining. Yeah right Grin

The lying rodent presided over the biggest boom we've ever had, and what did he do? Nothing! It took Costello to save just a small portion of what would've been possible had we not had the biggest economic illiterate as PM.

And All I'm saying is that if we get the oil found in SA, we'd be wise to do the same as Norway, and not just worry about the pittance we'd receive in corporate tax, while international companies pillage the rest.

you persist on pretending that oil is like every other mineral when it clearly is not. it is (or at least was) a super-important commodity in huge demand which was not found in many places and its demand is inelastic - unlike iron ore and coal. if the mining boom had continued, our budget would be $200B better off. If we hadn't had to put up with the rudd/gillard shambles we could have been another $100B-$200B better off. There is another $400B we could have had. but mining IS subject to ebbs and flows and elastic demand.

and as for the 'pittance' in company tax you need to learn that our company tax rate is among the highest in the world.

Australia doesn't have an oil export industry - yet. So we have to work with what we have and to date the ONLY govt to ever save money, especially hundreds of Billions, was Howard. and the biggest spender by far - BY FAR - was Rudd and Gillard.

you need to accept that Howard did a damned fine job which is why you wont find labor criticising him very much. Instead, it is boofheads like you doing it.

What does any of that have to do with not relying on mining simply through a corporate tax system but via a resource rent tax on profits that goes directly into a sovereign wealth fund?

Something Howard should've setup from day one, but instead chose to hand out in the form of baby cash.

and I'm curoius - what shambles from rudd/gillard are you referring to that could result in us being $200B better off?

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« Last Edit: Jan 20^th, 2015 at 12:31pm by sir prince duke alevine »

Disclaimer for Mothra per POST so it is forever acknowledged: Saying 'Islam' or 'Muslims' doesn't mean ALL muslims. This does not target individual muslims who's opinion I am not aware of.

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St George of the Garden Gold Member Offline http://tinyurl.com/n 3o8m2x Posts: 9809 Gender:	Re: South Australia: massive oil reserves discovered Reply #87 - Jan 20^th, 2015 at 12:18pm ahahahahah Longy, longy, the IMF said only recently said Howard was the most prolific spender! But dream on, better than facing the harsh reality that Abbott stinks like a fresh dog turd, that our Budget and economic problems stem largely from the inept Howard & Costello.
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Armchair_Politician

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Re: South Australia: massive oil reserves discovered
Reply #88 - Jan 20^th, 2015 at 12:23pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 19^th, 2015 at 7:02pm:

perceptions_now wrote on Jan 19^th, 2015 at 6:56pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 19^th, 2015 at 6:46pm:

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/promise-of-oil-thousands-of-jobs-as-companies-hunt-in-great-australian-bight/story-fni6uo1m-1227188977776?sv=9711efc8bb2a213e2e9aa6b83e906d1f&net_sub_uid=77728013&nk=ebb44e85a692cbcf4e1af24f9a32c79a

So much for Peak Oil - another discredited theory.

SA's offshore oil reserves are tipped to perhaps be the worlds LARGEST offshore reserves.

Bad luck, Perc.... WRONG AGAIN

Heard it all before Longy, But it just never actually comes true!

Btw, where does it say -
SA's offshore oil reserves are tipped to perhaps be the worlds LARGEST offshore reserves.

you only have to read. Look for it.

But wouldn't it be nice to have a massive OIL economy booming in south Australia? TEN BILLION in royalties a year perhaps?

It'd be nice to be entirely self-sufficient in regard to oil, to have cheaper fuel and to make some cash by exporting it!

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longweekend58

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Re: South Australia: massive oil reserves discovered
Reply #89 - Jan 20^th, 2015 at 12:29pm

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jan 20^th, 2015 at 11:27am:

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 20^th, 2015 at 11:18am:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jan 20^th, 2015 at 11:08am:

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 20^th, 2015 at 11:04am:

it is a Superannuation fund UNTIL SUCH time as that obligation is covered or until 2020 at which time it turns into a Sovereign Wealth Fund.

Then call it what it actually is until it changes.

Who knows what will happen to the world economy in the next 5 years.

It was at 107 Bil in 2013 33 bil short of it 2020 target, but with commodities coming off the boil, well halving in value a loss could well be posted this year.

IM guessing I am the only one on here who even knew it. But I do find it entertaining how the usual suspects routinely blame howard for basically everything - including things he didn't do - and then blame him for things he should have done and then find out he did anyhow.

Your standards are not only very high but hopelessly hypocritical. You have to not only DO but also NOT DO the same think to win praise.

Clearly the best PM is a quantum object that can have both states at once.

Then you'd be guessing wrong.

The fact remains until 2020 or 140 billion is the principle it remains a super fund.(

Im not involved in the Howard stuff & try not to be drawn into it.

But hey seeing as we are boasting about "Nation Building" lets seeing you pat Swan on the back

Quote:

In the 2008 Australian federal budget, the Treasurer, Wayne Swan announced that three new funds are to be established, to be managed by the Future Fundt:[2]

Building Australia Fund – An infrastructure fund to improve and create major infrastructure projects (including road, rail, ports and broadband) with an initial allocation of A$20 billion. At 31 December 2013, it was valued at A$4.28 billion.

Health and Hospitals Fund – A health infrastructure fund to provide increased spending on hospitals, medical equipment etc. with an initial allocation of A$10 billion. At 31 December 2013, it was valued at A$2.61 billion.

Education Investment Fund – A fund to provide capital investment in higher education and vocational education and training, with an initial allocation of around A$11 billion; including A$6 billion from the Higher Education Endowment Fund, of which it absorbs. At 31 December 2013, it was valued at A$3.91 billion.

DisabilityCare Australia Fund – A fund to fund the National Disability Insurance Scheme. The Fund is to receive contributions from the increase in the medicare levy by 0.5% to a total of 2% from 1 July 2014.

Careful remember

Quote:

The fund's investment decisions are made at arm's length from the executive.

so swan borrowed money to put in the Future Fund. why didn't he borrow $500B and put it into the fund. If you are only borrowing, then what is its value? Howard put away money that was SAVED.

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