Australian Politics Forum - Prepare to be educated righties

Swagman

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Re: Prepare to be educated righties
Reply #30 - Dec 22^nd, 2014 at 8:31am

John Smith wrote on Dec 21^st, 2014 at 5:40pm:

what happens at retirement time is the same thing that happens now, to those less well off

govts not there to prop up your lifestyle
.. it's there to provide the basics

Well congrats Smithy, welcome to my way of thinking.....looks like all these informative and educational posts of mine have finally cracked that indoctrinated brain of yours and shown you the light of reality..... Cheesy

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Swagman

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Re: Prepare to be educated righties
Reply #31 - Dec 22^nd, 2014 at 9:30am

Its time wrote on Dec 21^st, 2014 at 8:04pm:

Swagman wrote on Dec 21^st, 2014 at 5:27pm:

Its time wrote on Dec 20^th, 2014 at 11:48pm:

https://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/news/politics/2014/12/20/how-john-howards-ta...

Hewson smashes what you think you know to pieces .

...ironic to see a raving lefty fruitloop using a 'righty' to educate the masses...

Couldn't find a credible Pinko one I suppose? Grin

What's wrong swag? Clutching at straws attacking the poster don't you think? Once again Hewson tells it exactly as it is. What don't you deflect like you always do and refer to yourself as Australia's only net taxpayer , you got nothing Cheesy

That's banter not abuse SOW.

Hewson didn't write your linked article SOW.... he's just been selectively quoted by the author... Roll Eyes

The structural deficit argument is not a bad one from the Lefty point of view except that Labor did not have the balls to act upon it and reverse the tax cuts. Rudd had the numbers to do exactly that and failed.

Also I'd argue that Dr John if given the chance would also comment that his GST package could have delivered over 50% more GST revenue over the last 20 years (last year alone that was around $25 Billion)

Given that tax cuts actually induce spending, and GST taxes spending Howard's tax cuts. The big end of town spends a shite load more than the little end and arguably the GST take would have been much larger minimising any structural impact.

Also Dr John would also say that the 'regressive tax boogieman' argument for the GST is C R A P.

Because the bottom end of town are the beneficiaries of taxation

. The little end of town use the public services and collect the hand outs that tax revenues from whatever source produce.

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Bam

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Re: Prepare to be educated righties
Reply #32 - Dec 22^nd, 2014 at 9:54am

Swagman wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2014 at 9:30am:

Its time wrote on Dec 21^st, 2014 at 8:04pm:

What's wrong swag? Clutching at straws attacking the poster don't you think? Once again Hewson tells it exactly as it is. What don't you deflect like you always do and refer to yourself as Australia's only net taxpayer , you got nothing Cheesy

That's banter not abuse SOW.

Personal attacks against other posters is abuse and your pretending it's something else doesn't change that. Best not to do it, just in case.

Quote:

The structural deficit argument is not a bad one from the Lefty point of view except that Labor did not have the balls to act upon it and reverse the tax cuts. Rudd had the numbers to do exactly that and failed.

A silly argument. Abbott and Hockey aren't doing any better.

Quote:

Also Dr John would also say that the 'regressive tax boogieman' argument for the GST is C R A P.

Link, please.

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You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to hold opinions that you can defend through sound, reasoned argument.

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Dnarever

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Re: Prepare to be educated righties
Reply #33 - Dec 22^nd, 2014 at 10:02am

longweekend58 wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2014 at 6:33am:

WE would be $30B richer????

the GOVT would be $30B richer and WE (ie you and me) would be $30B poorer.

or did you miss this concept???

I earn fairly good money and am willing to accept that you probably do OK as well however I am nowhere near the top 20% where 80% of this bonus went so no you miss the mark probably nobody here would be much worse off and we would likely all benefit more from a balanced budget.

Now lets have a look at what it does mean.

We are in the position we are because the past Liberal government gave most of their unexpected income to wealthy people and we now see the following Liberal government wanting to recover from this unaffordable splurge by taking money off of the working class and poor in the community.

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« Last Edit: Dec 22^nd, 2014 at 10:10am by Dnarever »

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Dnarever

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Re: Prepare to be educated righties
Reply #34 - Dec 22^nd, 2014 at 10:08am

Swagman wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2014 at 9:30am:

The structural deficit argument is not a bad one from the Lefty point of view except that Labor did not have the balls to act upon it and reverse the tax cuts. Rudd had the numbers to do exactly that and failed.

.

Gillard never had a majority government and even Rudd had no control over the senate, he would have required the Liberals to support any such legislation which is at best unlikely. In the period that Rudd was the PM they were still playing with the idea that the boom would return and income levels would recover to the Howard years level so it wasn't clear that it was absolutely required at that time.

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Melanias purse

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Re: Prepare to be educated righties
Reply #35 - Dec 22^nd, 2014 at 10:49am

longweekend58 wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2014 at 8:24am:

Melanias purse wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2014 at 8:10am:

longweekend58 wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2014 at 6:33am:

Melanias purse wrote on Dec 21^st, 2014 at 5:36pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Dec 21^st, 2014 at 5:10pm:

It is just another wannabe PM lamenting how everything would have been better if HE had been in charge. Howards tax cuts weren't even actual cuts but merely manually keeping tax indexation.

And is there anyone who really believes that if there were another $30Bpa available, that Rudd and Gillard wouldn't have spent that well before now?

and if the argument were true then it does not explain Rudd giving further tax cuts and neither labor buffoon removing them.

How can the article not be true? The Howard tax cuts and super tax concessions to the rich were unprecedented. The IMF described Howard government as the most "profligate" government in Australia’s history. Most of its spending went to the top 10% of earners. It gave the mining boom away, and we now have nothing to show for it.

Without those tax cuts, we’d be 30 billion richer a year. The current deficit is 40 billion. This article describes the legacy bequeathed to Abbott.

And it’s spot-on.

unprecedented and profligate are such evocative terms which when taken out of context give the completely wrong answer. To make my point I refer you to a conversation I had to a woman who won $13M in powerball. her spending was both unprecedented and profligate by the standards of most people and her former experience. But she was very responsible and still had most of it.

Howard's boom was also unprecedented and gave him opportunities to do what no one else had done. "profligate' is one of those terms sometimes used by people who are envious of those with much.

Howards tax cuts were far from unprecedented. The way soe of you carry on you would think there has never been tax cuts before or since even tho Fraser, hawke, Keating, Rudd and Gillard did exactly that.

as for the 'nothing to show for it' claim it sometimes beggars the understanding as to how some people can be so dense. Howard paid off the national debt of $96B. He put $45B in the bank for a rainy day. He put $80B into a future fund as well as built infrastructure.

$230BILLION.

and what did rudd and Gillard do? SPENT EVERY CENT AND THEN SOME. and what do we have to show for it? school halls, wanted or not, useful or not.

nothing else.

Longy, the "futures fund" is another term for federal employees’ superannuation.

so what? do you think that makes it any less valuable? It is still a liability that has to be paid our of taxation if not for this fund.

The Howard government did not spend on infrastructure.

yeah... you keep believing that. 12 years and nothing on infrastructure? you believe anything if it suits you. who built roads? who built hospitals? and the rest?

45 billion after 11 years in government and two of the biggest mining booms in history is, yes, nothing to show for it.

I know you cant count so I will count for you. it was $230B, not $45B. that's not a bad effort. and you lovely labor borrowed almost exactly that amount and all we got were school halls of dubious value. now THATS a failure.

The Howard government has left Abbott with an age of entitlement, tax cuts for the rich, and the idea of a permanent mining boom. Alas, the party’s over.

except it was tax cuts for EVERYONE

The majority of those tax cuts went to the top 10% of income earners, along with the super concessions. The rest of the handouts were in the form of baby bonuses and Family Tax benefits.

If Labor handed out $7000 to every parent who had a child, you'd be threatening another terrorist attack.

The Abbott government is simply continuing this tradition. Their Paid Parental Leave scheme and Direct Action policies are further handouts. PPL's gone, and I doubt we'll see much put into Direct Action.

The Libs' theories on welfare and spending do not match reality. Tax cuts to the rich do much more damage to a government and an economy than welfare cuts. The US deficit in the trillions tells this story well - the result of the Bush tax cuts and the Iraq war.

Welfare cuts, on the other hand, cost an economy big time. Cuts to health and education effect employment big time. Taxing someone on $200,000 a year an extra 10% does bugger all - all this does is take less out of savings.

Cutting low incomes, welfare, health and education takes money out of spending. As Australia slides into recession, Joe Hockey is telling people to spend spend spend. However, the government is sending mixed messages by making cuts.

The schizophrenic nature of the government's economic "plan" is not good for investors OR consumer confidence. Right now, it's clear that the government does not have a plan. Last year, the plan was to reach surplus in the first term.

Now, Hockey has acknowledged that this would do more harm than good to the economy - if it were even possible.

And all this from a "no nonsense, no surprises" government. "Steady, predictable, reliable, the grown-ups back in charge".

Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?

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longweekend58

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Re: Prepare to be educated righties
Reply #36 - Dec 22^nd, 2014 at 10:57am

Dnarever wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2014 at 10:02am:

longweekend58 wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2014 at 6:33am:

WE would be $30B richer????

the GOVT would be $30B richer and WE (ie you and me) would be $30B poorer.

or did you miss this concept???

I earn fairly good money and am willing to accept that you probably do OK as well however I am nowhere near the top 20% where 80% of this bonus went so no you miss the mark probably nobody here would be much worse off and we would likely all benefit more from a balanced budget.

Now lets have a look at what it does mean.

We are in the position we are because the past Liberal government gave most of their unexpected income to wealthy people and we now see the following Liberal government wanting to recover from this unaffordable splurge by taking money off of the working class and poor in the community.

do you think you could come up with any ideas or opinions that aren't firmly rooted in class-warfare? income tax cuts were the same percentage for everyone. that is the very essence of equality. unless of course you believe that taxation exists in part to punish the high earners - who already pay ten times as much tax as you do now.

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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 78311 Gender:	Re: Prepare to be educated righties Reply #37 - Dec 22^nd, 2014 at 11:00am Swagman wrote on Dec 21^st, 2014 at 7:31pm: John Smith wrote on Dec 21^st, 2014 at 6:10pm: GST? I don't believe that was mention in the OP ....yes it was ignored in the linked article too which just shows it isn't worth a piece of piss because the article was about what Howard did, not about what he didn't do
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John Smith

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Re: Prepare to be educated righties
Reply #38 - Dec 22^nd, 2014 at 11:05am

Swagman wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2014 at 8:31am:

John Smith wrote on Dec 21^st, 2014 at 5:40pm:

what happens at retirement time is the same thing that happens now, to those less well off

govts not there to prop up your lifestyle
.. it's there to provide the basics

Well congrats Smithy, welcome to my way of thinking.....looks like all these informative and educational posts of mine have finally cracked that indoctrinated brain of yours and shown you the light of reality..... Cheesy

your way of thinking? no one would ever have guessed that based on your posts ...

you've always wanted to deny people the basics and support the lifestyles of those that pay 'net tax' haven't you ? Cheesy

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Melanias purse

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Re: Prepare to be educated righties
Reply #39 - Dec 22^nd, 2014 at 11:07am

longweekend58 wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2014 at 10:57am:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2014 at 10:02am:

longweekend58 wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2014 at 6:33am:

WE would be $30B richer????

the GOVT would be $30B richer and WE (ie you and me) would be $30B poorer.

or did you miss this concept???

I earn fairly good money and am willing to accept that you probably do OK as well however I am nowhere near the top 20% where 80% of this bonus went so no you miss the mark probably nobody here would be much worse off and we would likely all benefit more from a balanced budget.

Now lets have a look at what it does mean.

We are in the position we are because the past Liberal government gave most of their unexpected income to wealthy people and we now see the following Liberal government wanting to recover from this unaffordable splurge by taking money off of the working class and poor in the community.

do you think you could come up with any ideas or opinions that aren't firmly rooted in class-warfare? income tax cuts were the same percentage for everyone.

Not when you add tax concessions for super contributions, which only the wealthy put extra money into. The impact of this policy took billions out of revenue.

This policy makes some sense when you're trying to increase investment in other sectors of an economy during a mining boom, but it costs a huge amount in revenue. Continuing the policy today helps no one but the rich. It allows them to invest their income in super and avoid paying income tax, which the poor HAVE to pay.

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longweekend58

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Re: Prepare to be educated righties
Reply #40 - Dec 22^nd, 2014 at 11:23am

Melanias purse wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2014 at 10:49am:

longweekend58 wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2014 at 8:24am:

Melanias purse wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2014 at 8:10am:

longweekend58 wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2014 at 6:33am:

Melanias purse wrote on Dec 21^st, 2014 at 5:36pm:

[quote author=longweekend58 link=1419083322/13#13 date=1419145852]It is .

Without those tax cuts, we’d be 30 billion richer a year. The current deficit is 40 billion. This article describes the legacy bequeathed to Abbott.

And it’s spot-on.

$230BILLION.

and what did rudd and Gillard do? SPENT EVERY CENT AND THEN SOME. and what do we have to show for it? school halls, wanted or not, useful or not.

nothing else.

Longy, the "futures fund" is another term for federal employees’ superannuation.

so what? do you think that makes it any less valuable? It is still a liability that has to be paid our of taxation if not for this fund.

The Howard government did not spend on infrastructure.

yeah... you keep believing that. 12 years and nothing on infrastructure? you believe anything if it suits you. who built roads? who built hospitals? and the rest?

45 billion after 11 years in government and two of the biggest mining booms in history is, yes, nothing to show for it.

I know you cant count so I will count for you. it was $230B, not $45B. that's not a bad effort. and you lovely labor borrowed almost exactly that amount and all we got were school halls of dubious value. now THATS a failure.

The Howard government has left Abbott with an age of entitlement, tax cuts for the rich, and the idea of a permanent mining boom. Alas, the party’s over.

except it was tax cuts for EVERYONE

The majority of those tax cuts went to the top 10% of income earners, along with the super concessions. The rest of the handouts were in the form of baby bonuses and Family Tax benefits.

Complete nonsense. every taxpayer got approximately the same percentage in tax cuts - the very epitome of equality. But I guess your maths is so bad that you seem unable to comprehend how a 5% reduction for one person paying $100Kpa in tax is more that 5% on $500pa in tax. INcome tax does not exist to punish people for the audacity of earning more than the poor. they already pay 10-100 times as much as the poor pay. and you want more?

If Labor handed out $7000 to every parent who had a child, you'd be threatening another terrorist attack. Id disapprove of anyone who did it but you would be wanting it cut off from anyone earning about.... what you earn plus $20K

The Abbott government is simply continuing this tradition. Their Paid Parental Leave scheme and Direct Action policies are further handouts. PPL's gone, and I doubt we'll see much put into Direct Action.

The Libs' theories on welfare and spending do not match reality. Tax cuts to the rich do much more damage to a government and an economy than welfare cuts. The US deficit in the trillions tells this story well - the result of the Bush tax cuts and the Iraq war.

You are hopelessly uninformed. if you think the US deficit is the result of Bush tax cuts and the Iraq war then you are a boofhead. The US has been in debt for DECADES. your claim of tax cuts tot he rich causing damage is contrary to every economic theory and every economic practice. Thank God idiots like you don't define economic policy. You are no different to Mugabe and look what he did to that economy.

Welfare cuts, on the other hand, cost an economy big time. Cuts to health and education effect employment big time. Taxing someone on $200,000 a year an extra 10% does bugger all - all this does is take less out of savings. welfare cuts COST and economy?

what are you? the ghost of SOB back again? you gobble up the lefty version of economic management which has given us such stunning examples as Venuzuela, CUba and Russia. welfare is NOT an economic growth policy. That exists only in the minds of fools and children. Welfare is a DRAG on an economy and while I have no problem paying for it and thing we should I will not be told that it is an economic benefit.

Cutting low incomes, welfare, health and education takes money out of spending. As Australia slides into recession, Joe Hockey is telling people to spend spend spend. However, the government is sending mixed messages by making cuts.

but you support increased taxation! do you have an actual policy position that is consistent?

The schizophrenic nature of the government's economic "plan" is not good for investors OR consumer confidence. Right now, it's clear that the government does not have a plan. Last year, the plan was to reach surplus in the first term.

Now, Hockey has acknowledged that this would do more harm than good to the economy - if it were even possible.

And all this from a "no nonsense, no surprises" government. "Steady, predictable, reliable, the grown-ups back in charge".

Perhaps if the govt were actually able to govern there might be a better outcome. But I suspect you don't really support the democratic principle of electing governments to govern unless they agree with you. tell me Im wrong.

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John Smith

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Re: Prepare to be educated righties
Reply #41 - Dec 22^nd, 2014 at 11:26am

Swagman wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2014 at 9:30am:

Rudd had the numbers to do exactly that and failed.

Rudd never had the numbers or his ETS would have passed ... besides, he was only in there for a little over a year before he was removed .. in that time he had to deal with the GFC ... once gillard took over things got worse and they had even less control. Abbott voted against every single savings measure they tried to introduce. Cheesy

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Swagman

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Re: Prepare to be educated righties
Reply #42 - Dec 22^nd, 2014 at 11:27am

Melanias purse wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2014 at 10:49am:

The majority of those tax cuts went to the top 10% of income earners

That's funny because they also pay the majority of the tax......do you recognise a correlation there? Roll Eyes

Melanias purse wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2014 at 10:49am:

The schizophrenic nature of the government's economic "plan" is not good for investors OR consumer confidence

Tell that to the Opposition in the unrepresentative Senate.

Melanias purse wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2014 at 10:49am:

Cutting low incomes, welfare, health and education takes money out of spending. As Australia slides into recession, Joe Hockey is telling people to spend spend spend. However, the government is sending mixed messages by making cuts

That's a catch 22.

Like it or not the people that 'spend the most' are those that 'earn' the disposable incomes to do so.

Funny enough these are the also the people that pay the majority of tax.

So common sense would say that tax cuts or tax hikes to this demographic will therefore have have the most economic impact.

If it wants to increase the money supply the Govt will cut taxes if you want to squeeze it the Govt will increase taxes.

That is why we should have a broader tax system (increased GST) and lower marginal tax rates.

If the Govt wants to stimulate the economic it has to provide incentive to the demographic that will make the most impact which is the demographic that pays the majority of tax.

PS...and the downtrodden benefit from the trickle down Cheesy

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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 78311 Gender:	Re: Prepare to be educated righties Reply #43 - Dec 22^nd, 2014 at 11:30am i think longies about to pop a hernia
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longweekend58

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Re: Prepare to be educated righties
Reply #44 - Dec 22^nd, 2014 at 11:34am

John Smith wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2014 at 11:26am:

Swagman wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2014 at 9:30am:

Rudd had the numbers to do exactly that and failed.

Rudd never had the numbers or his ETS would have passed ... besides, he was only in there for a little over a year before he was removed .. in that time he had to deal with the GFC ... once gillard took over things got worse and they had even less control. Abbott voted against every single savings measure they tried to introduce. Cheesy

you must have gone to the adelcrow school of counting years. Rudd became PM in nov 2007 and was removed in march 2010. that is a LOT more than a year.

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