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Prepare to be educated righties (Read 17491 times)
John Smith
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Re: Prepare to be educated righties
Reply #285 - Dec 30th, 2014 at 10:53am
 
Melanias purse wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 10:17am:
Swagman wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 9:43am:
John Smith wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 9:31am:
Swagman wrote on Dec 29th, 2014 at 8:04pm:
Depends on your vantage point.


how about picking an amount and leaving it there, rather than changing it with every policy .... if 80k is rich, don't claim 150k is poor when they're talking about cuts ...

afterall, you are really concerned about the deficit aren't you? It's wasn't just an excuse to bitch about labor, was it?


Seriously, the Debt levy should have started at $80K (for singles)

My message about tax is simply that the main tax burden is on a minority of people which has to be acknowledged.


We know it’s your "message", Swagman. The point is you’ve proven it wrong. Those on incomes between $38,000 and $180,000 contribute 70% of income tax - the main tax burden. Income tax, as you have also shown, is the largest source of federal taxes.

If your message and your figures are so far out of whack, it dampens the rest of your argument - like the one on penalty rates (which has nothing to do with taxation). It makes you come across as a flagwaver for some other agenda.

This, of course, is exactly the problem the Abbott government is in. They don’t want to raise company taxes because they fear pushing business offshore. They can raise the GST, but this money simply goes to the states. All they have is income tax, which is against their policy to raise as well.

It’s also against their economic theory, which holds that you get more revenue if you lower taxes. Bush, of course, tried this in the states and ended up with a deficit in the trillions.

Oh, and it’s also the Libs’ economic theory to run a surplus.

Looks like Mr Abbott can’t win, doesn’t it? Looks like the only way to achieve victory is to change the "message".

Good propaganda, comrade.



and this is the whole problem with the rhetoric from the liberal party ... they say one thing, do another ..

after all their complaining about budget deficit, they spend every dollar they cut in spending on NEW areas .. they cut taxes when revenue is falling, increase spending when complaining about spending to much ... they don't appear to have a clue
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Melanias purse
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Re: Prepare to be educated righties
Reply #286 - Dec 30th, 2014 at 11:30am
 
John Smith wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 10:53am:
Melanias purse wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 10:17am:
Swagman wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 9:43am:
John Smith wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 9:31am:
Swagman wrote on Dec 29th, 2014 at 8:04pm:
Depends on your vantage point.


how about picking an amount and leaving it there, rather than changing it with every policy .... if 80k is rich, don't claim 150k is poor when they're talking about cuts ...

afterall, you are really concerned about the deficit aren't you? It's wasn't just an excuse to bitch about labor, was it?


Seriously, the Debt levy should have started at $80K (for singles)

My message about tax is simply that the main tax burden is on a minority of people which has to be acknowledged.


We know it’s your "message", Swagman. The point is you’ve proven it wrong. Those on incomes between $38,000 and $180,000 contribute 70% of income tax - the main tax burden. Income tax, as you have also shown, is the largest source of federal taxes.

If your message and your figures are so far out of whack, it dampens the rest of your argument - like the one on penalty rates (which has nothing to do with taxation). It makes you come across as a flagwaver for some other agenda.

This, of course, is exactly the problem the Abbott government is in. They don’t want to raise company taxes because they fear pushing business offshore. They can raise the GST, but this money simply goes to the states. All they have is income tax, which is against their policy to raise as well.

It’s also against their economic theory, which holds that you get more revenue if you lower taxes. Bush, of course, tried this in the states and ended up with a deficit in the trillions.

Oh, and it’s also the Libs’ economic theory to run a surplus.

Looks like Mr Abbott can’t win, doesn’t it? Looks like the only way to achieve victory is to change the "message".

Good propaganda, comrade.



and this is the whole problem with the rhetoric from the liberal party ... they say one thing, do another ..

after all their complaining about budget deficit, they spend every dollar they cut in spending on NEW areas .. they cut taxes when revenue is falling, increase spending when complaining about spending to much ... they don't appear to have a clue


Under Howard, they governed through a mining boom and got lucky. They pretended they kept interest rates down, when this is the job of the RBA.

Previously under Fraser, they trashed the economy. They kept spending despite recession and huge terms of trade problems. It was left to Hawke and Keating to reform the economy, which paved the way for the Howard government’s lucky streak.

The difference between Rudd/Gillard and Abbott is that the former governments had a plan. They stuck to their guns. They rolled out the NBN. They had a plan to rationalise school funding through Gonski. They had a plan to get more people with disabilities into the workforce through the NDIS.

These were all economic reforms. We are at the end of a mining boom and need to get other sectors up and running. Abbott’s plan is to axe the carbon and mining taxes - that’s it. He’s done.

But wait, there’s more. He now has plans to make massive cuts to health, education and welfare, but put this money into other areas. If the Abbott government had a plan all along, they didn’t do very well at explaining it, as Hockey and Abbott have now conceded.

All Rudd and Gillard ever did was explain their plan. Constantly. They were criticised for being all talk, and in many cases they were. Most of their plans had problems being implimented.

Unlike the current government, however, they were all implimented. They achieved support for their plans in a minority government. This alone shows excellent negotiating skills. Even Bob Katter had good things to say about Gillard.

Mind you, Abbott has quietly done some important trade deals with China and Japan. These deals are important, and the Libs would trumpet them more if they weren’t scared of putting the National Party’s noses out of joint.

The Libs have backed themselves into a corner by opposing Labor as high-taxing spendthrifts, when taxing and spending is the only thing that will put the economy on track again. This is the message of  discontented ex-Nationals like Bob Katter, and it’s popular in the bush. If it involves spending on energy reforms like renewables, it will be popular in the city too.

If the Libs want to move from being an opposition to a government, they need a plan. They also need to adjust their ideology of austerity if they want to turn the economy around. This ideology worked well in boom times, it does not work well now.

It worked well when the Libs were in opposition and didn’t need to make any unpopular cuts. Politically, this won’t work now.

Essentially, the Libs are falling on their own sword. Their chickens are coming home to roost. They could turn things around, but it would raise the obvious question of what the Liberal Party truly stands for.

And Abbott and Hockey are not up to this task.
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« Last Edit: Dec 30th, 2014 at 11:46am by Melanias purse »  
 
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John Smith
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Re: Prepare to be educated righties
Reply #287 - Jan 10th, 2015 at 2:32pm
 
Melanias purse wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 11:30am:
Abbott has quietly done some important trade deals with China and Japan. These deals are important, and the Libs would trumpet them more if they weren’t scared of putting the National Party’s noses out of joint.


the problem is that we haven't seen the fine print ... did he negotiate good terms or did he simply concede to their demands? hearing stories such as japan free to sell whatever they want to us but aussie manufacturers are not free to sell in Japan doesn't inspire a lot of confidence that he negotiated a good deal. I suspect he simply agreed to their demands for the headline value.
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Melanias purse
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Re: Prepare to be educated righties
Reply #288 - Jan 10th, 2015 at 11:44pm
 
John Smith wrote on Jan 10th, 2015 at 2:32pm:
Melanias purse wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 11:30am:
Abbott has quietly done some important trade deals with China and Japan. These deals are important, and the Libs would trumpet them more if they weren’t scared of putting the National Party’s noses out of joint.


the problem is that we haven't seen the fine print ... did he negotiate good terms or did he simply concede to their demands? hearing stories such as japan free to sell whatever they want to us but aussie manufacturers are not free to sell in Japan doesn't inspire a lot of confidence that he negotiated a good deal. I suspect he simply agreed to their demands for the headline value.


China and Japan are manufacturers. Removing tariffs and importing more brings down prices. Toyota’s already advertising free trade deal discounts on cars.

Sure, we don’t know the fine print - I don’t, anyway. But these deals are important, as are other high level talks with China and Japan. It signals our greater integration into the region, which is emerging to become the next economic powerhouse.

I don’t know the details, but this is the policy of both major parties and is supported by recent White Paper on the Asian Century. It’s the major foreign policy theme of the last 30 years.

We aren’t in the British Empire anymore. We need Asia, and Abbott can be credited for being pragmatic enough to recognise this and get the job done.

On this front, he is proving to be quite at odds with the views of John Winston Howard.
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Andrei.Hicks
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Re: Prepare to be educated righties
Reply #289 - Jan 10th, 2015 at 11:57pm
 
If you want to integrate into Asia, good luck to you.
You'll sure need it.
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Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination - Oscar Wilde
 
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Melanias purse
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Re: Prepare to be educated righties
Reply #290 - Jan 11th, 2015 at 12:16am
 
Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 10th, 2015 at 11:57pm:
If you want to integrate into Asia, good luck to you.
You'll sure need it.


Good luck if we don’t. Prior to the Hawke/Keating governments, Australia was rapidly becoming a banana republic. When Britain joined the EC in the early 70s, that was it for Australian exports. The oil shocks nearly finished us off.

And the Libs under Fraser did nothing. The Libs under the Howard opposition complained about the rate of Asian immigration.

Today, Australia is a totally different country. Demographically, almost 50% of us were born overseas or have at least one foreign born parent.

Including Boers.

The story of the Australian economy of the past 30 years is almost solely about its trade with Asia, from mining, agriculture and education exports to cheap East Asian manufactured imports. The cost of cars, whitegoods, household goods, building materials, clothing, and pretty much everything else is far cheaper than at any time in Australia’s history. Even the poorest Australians now fill their houses with cheap stuff, almost all of it made in China.

We can’t possibly ignore the source of our goods, or the destination of our exports. The source of our labour - and our capital - is Asia.

The other part of the story is easily available credit, but I’ll save that one for another day.
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« Last Edit: Jan 11th, 2015 at 12:22am by Melanias purse »  
 
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John Smith
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Re: Prepare to be educated righties
Reply #291 - Jan 11th, 2015 at 9:47am
 
Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 10th, 2015 at 11:57pm:
If you want to integrate into Asia, good luck to you.
You'll sure need it.


you seen a lot of trade with the UK lately?
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Andrei.Hicks
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Re: Prepare to be educated righties
Reply #292 - Jan 11th, 2015 at 5:47pm
 
John Smith wrote on Jan 11th, 2015 at 9:47am:
Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 10th, 2015 at 11:57pm:
If you want to integrate into Asia, good luck to you.
You'll sure need it.


you seen a lot of trade with the UK lately?


We are the fastest growing economy in Europe.
Still if you were to chuck your lot in with the Asians...
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Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination - Oscar Wilde
 
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John Smith
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Re: Prepare to be educated righties
Reply #293 - Jan 11th, 2015 at 7:03pm
 
Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 11th, 2015 at 5:47pm:
John Smith wrote on Jan 11th, 2015 at 9:47am:
Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 10th, 2015 at 11:57pm:
If you want to integrate into Asia, good luck to you.
You'll sure need it.


you seen a lot of trade with the UK lately?


We are the fastest growing economy in Europe.
Still if you were to chuck your lot in with the Asians...


fastest growing in a sinking ship ... you should be proud ....

you want to try answer the question now?
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philperth2010
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Re: Prepare to be educated righties
Reply #294 - Jan 11th, 2015 at 8:38pm
 
longweekend58 wrote on Dec 21st, 2014 at 5:12pm:
John Smith wrote on Dec 21st, 2014 at 4:43pm:
Swagman wrote on Dec 21st, 2014 at 3:46pm:
John Smith wrote on Dec 21st, 2014 at 3:00pm:
And that’s without including some $40 billion in tax concessions for superannuation, which accrue overwhelmingly to the wealthiest 20 per cent of taxpayers


The only ones that pay net tax anyway....


so we spend more money than our whole pension system? didn't we have a budget emergency?


Maybe the question you should be asking is why NO ONE from either party is suggesting removing this concession.  Perhaps they know something you don't?  for starters, if you remove the concession there is absolutely ZERO reason to put money into super, none at all.  so what happens come retirement time???  NOT ENOUGH MONEY.



It would be cheaper to cut superannuation tax concessions altogether and give the pension to everyone instead of allowing the wealthy to use super as a tax avoidance scheme.....If the wealthy were not allowed to horde millions in superannuation and made to pay tax on their income they would be forced to invest their profits instead of leaving their money in tax havens that have become superannuation accounts.....Howard and Costello screwed the nation to buy votes during a once in a lifetime boom.....Now we have seen the back of the boom Hockey and Abbott want the poor to pay the price for poor policy....Wankers!!!

Angry Angry Angry

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If knowledge can create problems, it is not through ignorance that we can solve them.
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John Smith
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Re: Prepare to be educated righties
Reply #295 - Jan 11th, 2015 at 9:11pm
 
philperth2010 wrote on Jan 11th, 2015 at 8:38pm:
It would be cheaper to cut superannuation tax concessions altogether and give the pension to everyone instead of allowing the wealthy to use super as a tax avoidance scheme


i think they should give the pension to EVERYONE (even Gina) if you've worked and paid taxes all your life, you should get it .. and it shouldn't be reduced if you want to keep earning by working part time.
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