Australian Politics Forum - Prepare to be educated righties

Swagman

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Re: Prepare to be educated righties
Reply #255 - Dec 28^th, 2014 at 1:38pm

Dnarever wrote on Dec 28^th, 2014 at 1:32pm:

Swagman wrote on Dec 28^th, 2014 at 1:29pm:

Arbitrarily if the cost of a public hospital bed if $500 per day. If it's filled by a private patient the hospital gets $500 off the private health fund and not from the Govt. The Govt (aka the Taxpayer) saves $500. This $500 dollars can then be used for something else such as better equipment etc.

That's how it takes the burden off the public system.

Wow the perfect excuse for an increase to private funds costing us all more for the same service if we are lucky.

Who is 'us'? The tax-payer? Private patients are tax-payers too. They pay the medicare levy.

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Melanias purse Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 101574	Re: Prepare to be educated righties Reply #256 - Dec 28^th, 2014 at 2:12pm Quote: This is relevant because.....? This is relevant because most hospital admissions are triaged through A & E.
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Melanias purse

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Re: Prepare to be educated righties
Reply #257 - Dec 28^th, 2014 at 2:18pm

Swagman wrote on Dec 28^th, 2014 at 1:29pm:

Melanias purse wrote on Dec 28^th, 2014 at 1:05pm:

Public hospitals don’t charge anyone for using Accident & Emergency. Private hospitals don’t provide this service

And this is relevant because....?

Melanias purse wrote on Dec 28^th, 2014 at 1:05pm:

And even if public hospitals did receive funding from private insurance (like the US), how would this take the burden off the public system?

Arbitrarily if the cost of a public hospital bed if $500 per day. If it's filled by a private patient the hospital gets $500 off the private health fund and not from the Govt. The Govt (aka the Taxpayer) saves $500. This $500 dollars can then be used for something else such as better equipment etc.

That's how it takes the burden off the public system.

Melanias purse wrote on Dec 28^th, 2014 at 1:05pm:

The elite private schools receive as much funding for students as state schools

Not from all sources of Govt they don't.

Melanias purse wrote on Dec 28^th, 2014 at 1:05pm:

Private schools don’t save taxpayers money when they’re funded by taxpayers.

A naïve argument. Private school kids get about 0.40c in the dollar Govt funding. Therefore the Govt is saving 60% on the public cost of educating every private school child. The Govt would have to find this extra 0.60c in the dollar if there were no private schools. Huh

Private schools might get 40 cents in the dollar of the fees parents pay, but they receive the same funding per student across the board.

Some schools actually receive more government funding than state schools. Kings in Sydney is one such school.

This is why the Gonski reforms are important. At present, there is no rhyme or reason to school funding. Much of it depends on the electorate parents live in, or their influence (like the prestigious Kings school).

Labor and Liberal governments are both guilty of pork barreling school funding. Menzies started it with the Catholics, and Whitlam continued the tradition with Anglican schools. Successive governments have added more and more.

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Swagman

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Re: Prepare to be educated righties
Reply #258 - Dec 28^th, 2014 at 2:37pm

Melanias purse wrote on Dec 28^th, 2014 at 2:18pm:

Labor and Liberal governments are both guilty of pork barreling school funding. Menzies started it with the Catholics, and Whitlam continued the tradition with Anglican schools. Successive governments have added more and more.

Doesn't alter the fact that if all private schools suddenly ceased operations tomorrow, it would cost the Govt billions more (than it currently funds private schools) to educate the kids that attended these schools. Huh

Private health is similar.

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Melanias purse

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Re: Prepare to be educated righties
Reply #259 - Dec 28^th, 2014 at 5:41pm

Swagman wrote on Dec 28^th, 2014 at 2:37pm:

Melanias purse wrote on Dec 28^th, 2014 at 2:18pm:

Labor and Liberal governments are both guilty of pork barreling school funding. Menzies started it with the Catholics, and Whitlam continued the tradition with Anglican schools. Successive governments have added more and more.

Doesn't alter the fact that if all private schools suddenly ceased operations tomorrow, it would cost the Govt billions more (than it currently funds private schools) to educate the kids that attended these schools. Huh

Private health is similar.

Not if you read my post Read it again.

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Dnarever

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Re: Prepare to be educated righties
Reply #260 - Dec 28^th, 2014 at 6:18pm

Swagman wrote on Dec 28^th, 2014 at 1:38pm:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 28^th, 2014 at 1:32pm:

Swagman wrote on Dec 28^th, 2014 at 1:29pm:

Arbitrarily if the cost of a public hospital bed if $500 per day. If it's filled by a private patient the hospital gets $500 off the private health fund and not from the Govt. The Govt (aka the Taxpayer) saves $500. This $500 dollars can then be used for something else such as better equipment etc.

That's how it takes the burden off the public system.

Wow the perfect excuse for an increase to private funds costing us all more for the same service if we are lucky.

Who is 'us'? The tax-payer? Private patients are tax-payers too. They pay the medicare levy.

If we are talking about price increases for private health funds who do you think would be impacted ?

In this scenario the government get to save money by switching the cost to the private funds and in turn the government will then approve justified increases to private fund rates.

The government save some money the private funds make some money and it all comes out of our pockets, there is no good news here for the average family.

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Swagman

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Re: Prepare to be educated righties
Reply #261 - Dec 28^th, 2014 at 7:15pm

Melanias purse wrote on Dec 28^th, 2014 at 5:41pm:

Swagman wrote on Dec 28^th, 2014 at 2:37pm:

Melanias purse wrote on Dec 28^th, 2014 at 2:18pm:

Labor and Liberal governments are both guilty of pork barreling school funding. Menzies started it with the Catholics, and Whitlam continued the tradition with Anglican schools. Successive governments have added more and more.

Doesn't alter the fact that if all private schools suddenly ceased operations tomorrow, it would cost the Govt billions more (than it currently funds private schools) to educate the kids that attended these schools. Huh

Private health is similar.

Not if you read my post Read it again.

Which one?.

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Melanias purse

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Re: Prepare to be educated righties
Reply #262 - Dec 28^th, 2014 at 7:40pm

Read dnarever’s below to get the big picture, Swagman.

Funding private health and private schools are merely responding to high influence pressure groups - the kind of deep pocketed lobbies like big mining who nearly brought the first Rudd government down before JuLiar did it for them.

Private health funds do nothing to take the burden from the public system. How many private hospitals are there in Australia? How many patients with health insurance even go to private hospitals when they get sick or have elective surgery?

Public health is the backbone of the health system in Australia. Government rebates for private health funds do nothing except move money around the sector and make a handful of people rich in the process.

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Swagman

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Re: Prepare to be educated righties
Reply #263 - Dec 28^th, 2014 at 9:06pm

Melanias purse wrote on Dec 28^th, 2014 at 7:40pm:

Funding private health and private schools are merely responding to high influence pressure groups - the kind of deep pocketed lobbies like big mining who nearly brought the first Rudd government down before JuLiar did it for them

Leftist cynicism. Even Labor politicians know how much private schools and private health saves the Govt.

Melanias purse wrote on Dec 28^th, 2014 at 7:40pm:

Private health funds do nothing to take the burden from the public system.

You'll need to elaborate on this statement. If just one private patient uses a private hospital then the public system is spared the cost of one patient.

Melanias purse wrote on Dec 28^th, 2014 at 7:40pm:

How many private hospitals are there in Australia?

Quite a few. 43% of the total according to the table.

Source

What would happen to the cost of the public system if all the private hospitals ceased operations?

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Melanias purse

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Re: Prepare to be educated righties
Reply #264 - Dec 28^th, 2014 at 10:06pm

Nice use of data, Swagman. You’ve proven there are quite a few private hospitals. And yes, if they weren’t there I imagine they would put stress on the public hospital system.

But it depends where they are and how they’re used. It also depends who funds them. I don’t think there should be no private hospitals, but I don’t think they should be funded by the state through health insurance rebates.

If people want private cover, they should pay for it. If anyone needs life saving health treatment, they should get it. We live in a country where we can afford this. We live in a country where we can easily support 24 million people, and largely, we do.

My argument on school funding is not leftist cynicism. Menzies funded Catholic schools in a deal to get Catholic DLP support in the senate. In doing so, he kept Labor out of government for a generation.

Whitlam out-Menzied Menzies by getting middle class protestants on board and extending Catholic school funding to all. He allied the middle class intelligensia to the Labor cause and won the 72 "it’s time" election, and in doing so captured the middle ground for the ALP.

The effect of all this was to create an ever-increasing welfare state that the Abbott government is now grappling with.

It may be cynicism, but it’s politics.

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Dnarever

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Re: Prepare to be educated righties
Reply #265 - Dec 29^th, 2014 at 7:27am

Swagman wrote on Dec 28^th, 2014 at 2:37pm:

Melanias purse wrote on Dec 28^th, 2014 at 2:18pm:

Labor and Liberal governments are both guilty of pork barreling school funding. Menzies started it with the Catholics, and Whitlam continued the tradition with Anglican schools. Successive governments have added more and more.

Doesn't alter the fact that if all private schools suddenly ceased operations tomorrow, it would cost the Govt billions more (than it currently funds private schools) to educate the kids that attended these schools. Huh

Private health is similar.

I suppose that I should comment when you are right.

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Swagman

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Re: Prepare to be educated righties
Reply #266 - Dec 29^th, 2014 at 7:31am

Melanias purse wrote on Dec 28^th, 2014 at 10:06pm:

If people want private cover, they should pay for it

It's not free. They do pay for it.

Government backs private schools and private health because by doing so it saves money. Lots of money. The money it saves enables Govt to fund other areas of its responsibilities.

Melanias purse wrote on Dec 28^th, 2014 at 10:06pm:

If people want private cover, they should pay for it. If anyone needs life saving health treatment, they should get it. We live in a country where we can afford this. We live in a country where we can easily support 24 million people, and largely, we do.

Correction, we live in a country that 'used' to be able to afford this.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2010-02-01/ageing-population-dragging-australia-into-...

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Melanias purse Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 101574	Re: Prepare to be educated righties Reply #267 - Dec 29^th, 2014 at 7:59am How could rebating a health system based on profit save money? What do they do that’s any better? Do they have better medicine? Better medical training? Cleaner hospitals? Better patients? What?
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Swagman

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Re: Prepare to be educated righties
Reply #268 - Dec 29^th, 2014 at 8:08am

Melanias purse wrote on Dec 29^th, 2014 at 7:59am:

How could rebating a health system based on profit save money?

What do they do that’s any better? Do they have better medicine? Better medical training? Cleaner hospitals?

Better patients?

What?

It saves the Govt money because privately insured patients in private hospitals (as previously pointed out) are not using up a public hospital bed.

It is therefore to the Govt's benefit to have as many people privately insured as possible. A rebate is an incentive to do something that the Govt wants you to do.

Arguably, what the Govt loses in tax revenue providing the rebate is more than offset by the reduced health costs savings.

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Dnarever

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Re: Prepare to be educated righties
Reply #269 - Dec 29^th, 2014 at 8:11am

Melanias purse wrote on Dec 29^th, 2014 at 7:59am:

How could rebating a health system based on profit save money?

What do they do that’s any better? Do they have better medicine? Better medical training? Cleaner hospitals?

Better patients?

What?

The rebate amount is not 1 to 1, taking the subsidy for a bed out of the private system would not fund a bed in the public system. Private hospitals pay a lot of their own costs and are mostly subsidised by patient charges.

Forcing all these people into public care would cost a lot more than would be saved even if the infrastructure was available which it isn't.

There would instantly be a shortage of beds, wards, hospitals, operating theatres, staff etc. The additional cost would be many $ billion.

What do they do that’s any better? Do they have better medicine? Better medical training? Cleaner hospitals?

Some may have access to better equipment and do tend to be more pristine environments. But in reality that are mostly not as well skilled across the board and often offload really sick patients to the public system for treatment that they can not provide.

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