Australian Politics Forum - Terrorist protested Terror laws

moses

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 6353

Re: Terrorist protested Terror laws
Reply #60 - Dec 24^th, 2014 at 2:56pm

Brian Ross wrote: Quote:

The agenda didn't match that of the early Church fathers, Moses. Something I am sure you knew. I cannot believe you are so naive as to think that Christianity is not the result of some heavy editing which was undertaken by the early Church fathers which had decided upon which path they wanted the doctrine to go down.

I believe I said: **I don't accept anything and everything (the writings you mention for example) as definitely being truthful or of high spiritual value. (it's a bit like you telling me islam is a religion of peace, has nothing to do with terrorism)

What was the agenda of the writings you mention?

I understand that certain writings were cast aside, as examination determined them to be disingenuous.**

Seems clear to me that I said that the early church cast aside (edited)writings which they deemed disingenuous after close examination.

Quote:

You seem to believe that the authors of The Bible were real people, Moses.

What proof do you have of that? Why couldn't they merely been convenient narrative means to achieve the end of explaining the belief system that the Church wanted it's believers to believe in? Which is why I mentioned "editing". Always remember, editors control what goes in and what gets left out of a book and so decide what story it is going to tell.

Now you've run away from the diversity of the Christian doctrine, you now want to go down the path of the many sources of the doctrine weren't real people.

Quote:

Just as The Bible therefore tells us that today's Christians aren't real Christians, Moses. They have foresaken the instructions in that book to wage unrelenting war on the unbelievers and to rape, pillage, enslave and burn them and their families and their cities.

Can you provide the Christian doctrine which instructs Christians to wage unrelenting war on the unbelievers and to rape, pillage, enslave and burn them and their families and their cities?

Your say so does not count, provide the actual Christian doctrine

Quote:

Just as those Christians who believe The Bible is "divinely inspired" - both Old and New Testaments, Moses. It is the literal "word of God" and should be obeyed. If it must be for Muslims, it must be for Christians too, Moses.

You forgot to mention the "divinely inspired" word of Christ actually finalized some parts of the O.T.

Quote:

Your Reply #49 - Dec 20th

so have modern Muslims created a different interpretation of their religion. We should be encouraging that, Moses. You, however seem mired in the 7th century CE, as are the Islamists and fundamentalists.

Your above answer is the perfect substantiation of what I've always said e.g.:

All muslims regard as infallible, perfect and never to be changed, the terrorist doctrine of: jihad, hijrah, taqiyya and kitman, self alienation from normal society, hate speech, torture and murder of hypocrites / disbelievers / corrupters, a prophet of islam has to be a mass murderer etc.

All muslims who believes the above to be infallible, perfect and never to be changed, also believe in the islamic terrorism the doctrine spawns.

All muslims who ascribe infallibility, perfectness, everlasing unchangeability to the qur'an, most certainly accept the islamic atrocities this doctrine spawns.

Back to top

IP Logged

Brian Ross

Gold Member

Offline

Representative of me

Posts: 44372

Re: Terrorist protested Terror laws
Reply #61 - Dec 24^th, 2014 at 5:31pm

moses wrote on Dec 24^th, 2014 at 2:56pm:

Brian Ross wrote: Quote:

The agenda didn't match that of the early Church fathers, Moses. Something I am sure you knew. I cannot believe you are so naive as to think that Christianity is not the result of some heavy editing which was undertaken by the early Church fathers which had decided upon which path they wanted the doctrine to go down.

I believe I said: **I don't accept anything and everything (the writings you mention for example) as definitely being truthful or of high spiritual value. (it's a bit like you telling me islam is a religion of peace, has nothing to do with terrorism)

What was the agenda of the writings you mention?

I understand that certain writings were cast aside, as examination determined them to be disingenuous.**

Seems clear to me that I said that the early church cast aside (edited)writings which they deemed disingenuous after close examination.

Or perhaps they did it because they decided that they did not like say, the Gnostic tradition which held, like Islam that there is no need for something akin to a formal, hierarchical church between the believer and God?

Moses, you assume that the early Church fathers were not human and just as subject to their egos and of course their own distorted views on the message that they believe Christ had delivered to them. Why? Roll Eyes

Quote:

You seem to believe that the authors of The Bible were real people, Moses.

What proof do you have of that? Why couldn't they merely been convenient narrative means to achieve the end of explaining the belief system that the Church wanted it's believers to believe in? Which is why I mentioned "editing". Always remember, editors control what goes in and what gets left out of a book and so decide what story it is going to tell.

Now you've run away from the diversity of the Christian doctrine, you now want to go down the path of the many sources of the doctrine weren't real people.

Where is the evidence that those people ever existed? We have essentially no evidence that Christ existed. Therefore, how likely was it that some peasants from Palestine would have either been able or lived long enough to write the gospels (as they are generally acknowledged to have been written some 75-150 years after the date usually given for the death of Christ)?

Quote:

Quote:

Just as The Bible therefore tells us that today's Christians aren't real Christians, Moses. They have foresaken the instructions in that book to wage unrelenting war on the unbelievers and to rape, pillage, enslave and burn them and their families and their cities.

Can you provide the Christian doctrine which instructs Christians to wage unrelenting war on the unbelievers and to rape, pillage, enslave and burn them and their families and their cities?

Your say so does not count, provide the actual Christian doctrine

All contained in The Bible, Moses, as you well know. Be it from Exodus through to Revelations. I cannot quote the entire Bible, now can I? Roll Eyes

Quote:

Just as those Christians who believe The Bible is "divinely inspired" - both Old and New Testaments, Moses. It is the literal "word of God" and should be obeyed. If it must be for Muslims, it must be for Christians too, Moses.

You forgot to mention the "divinely inspired" word of Christ actually finalized some parts of the O.T.

Immaterial, Moses, it still remains the "divinely inspired" literal "word of God". Are you going to dispute that? Roll Eyes

If you do, you are attacking one of the fundamental beliefs of Christianity.

Still one of the best put downs of the Fundamentalist Christian position I know of.

Back to top

It seems that I have upset a Moderator and are forbidden from using memes. So much for Freedom of Speech. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

IP Logged

Adamant Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1893 Brisbane Gender:	Re: Terrorist protested Terror laws Reply #62 - Dec 24^th, 2014 at 6:28pm Brian Ross wrote on Dec 24^th, 2014 at 5:31pm: We have essentially no evidence that Christ existed. Do you have evidence to prove your claim Brian? If not, why make the claim in the first place?
Back to top	In real life Gandalf is known as Mr 10% IP Logged

Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 98471	Re: Terrorist protested Terror laws Reply #63 - Dec 24^th, 2014 at 6:36pm Moses, what do your two asterisks refer to? Is this some kind of code?
Back to top	IP Logged

Brian Ross

Gold Member

Offline

Representative of me

Posts: 44372

Re: Terrorist protested Terror laws
Reply #64 - Dec 24^th, 2014 at 6:51pm

Adamant wrote on Dec 24^th, 2014 at 6:28pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 24^th, 2014 at 5:31pm:

We have essentially no evidence that Christ existed.

Do you have evidence to prove your claim Brian? Roll Eyes

If not, why make the claim in the first place? Roll Eyes

One cannot prove a negative, it is logically impossible, Adam. Unlike you, I need proof as to Christ's existence, I do not rely on faith. Therefore, as there is no verifiable proof that he existed, beyond circumstantial evidence in secondary sources, I must assume that he is a creature of myth and legend, until shown otherwise. Call me simply "doubting Thomas". I need to poke my fingers in the wounds. As Thomas was made Saint Thomas, it is obvious that God doesn't dislike doubters, Adam. Perhaps you need to be as tolerant? Roll Eyes

Back to top

It seems that I have upset a Moderator and are forbidden from using memes. So much for Freedom of Speech. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

IP Logged

Good riddance

Junior Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 79

Re: Terrorist protested Terror laws
Reply #65 - Dec 24^th, 2014 at 8:24pm

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 24^th, 2014 at 5:31pm:

Where is the evidence that those people ever existed? We have essentially no evidence that Christ existed. Therefore, how likely was it that some peasants from Palestine would have either been able or lived long enough to write the gospels (as they are generally acknowledged to have been written some 75-150 years after the date usually given for the death of Christ)?

That would make them second century. Go ahead and prove that it is "generally acknowledge" (you do know what "generally" means don't you?) that they were written in the second century. Because the position held by the majority of scholars has always had them as first century.

You want to make BS claims to support your argument. Back them up!

Back to top

IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: Terrorist protested Terror laws
Reply #66 - Dec 24^th, 2014 at 9:19pm

Soren wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2014 at 9:12pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2014 at 7:16pm:

Soren wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2014 at 4:03pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2014 at 3:02pm:

Soren wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2014 at 10:21am:

Also, you want to educate us all the time but now you won't tell us the fundamental difference between Christianity and Islam. Tell us, Brain. Or don't you know?

I provided you with a most useful link, which answers your question, Soren. If you can't make use of it, that's your look out, not mine. Roll Eyes

So you don't know what the fundamental differences are between Islam and Christianity.

Fine. You can't know everything, Brain.

I have never claimed to know "everything", Soren. I am only too willing to admit my limitations. However, I am well aware of the differences between Christianity and Islam. That weblink I provided showed those differences in a clear and orderly way, more quickly and more concisely than I could in the time I had. Why are you so afraid to consult it?

Here is another, longer piece which you may find more useful, if the original weblink didn't provide the information you are seeking. Again, if you cannot or will not use the information provided, what point is there to discussing this? Unless of course, your ideas don't accord with the officially recognised differences? Roll Eyes

I am asking you, not some other nobody on the internetz, Brain.

What do you think - if think is the word I want in your case - is the fundamental, significant, essential difference between Islam and Christianity?
Don't run away from the question, Brain. You are forever posting equivalent shite. Say it out loud that there is no difference as far as you can see - or say what the difference is.

Just be honest about where you stand - I know I am asking you the impossible but I have to give you the opportunity (again and again).
Who knows? One day you may turn honest.

State your case, Brain, if you dare. Tell us the difference, as you see it, between Islam and Christianity. Tell us what YOU think, Brain.

If you can think and if you are allowed to say what you think.

Back to top

IP Logged

Brian Ross

Gold Member

Offline

Representative of me

Posts: 44372

Re: Terrorist protested Terror laws
Reply #67 - Dec 25^th, 2014 at 12:28am

Good riddance wrote on Dec 24^th, 2014 at 8:24pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 24^th, 2014 at 5:31pm:

Where is the evidence that those people ever existed? We have essentially no evidence that Christ existed. Therefore, how likely was it that some peasants from Palestine would have either been able or lived long enough to write the gospels (as they are generally acknowledged to have been written some 75-150 years after the date usually given for the death of Christ)?

That would make them second century. Go ahead and prove that it is "generally acknowledge" (you do know what "generally" means don't you?) that they were written in the second century. Because the position held by the majority of scholars has always had them as first century.

You want to make BS claims to support your argument. Back them up!

Hello, Matty, or are you Adam today? How are things?

Considering the difficulties in fixing dates in the early first Millennium (Christ's birth date is not known with any accuracy, yet the succeeding millenniums are consider "Anno Domino" - after Christ. Historians believe that there is anything up to a 100 year gap between the end of the first millennium BC and the start of the first millennium AD. Many people, particularly Christians seem to believe the transition from one millennium to the other was smooth and that everything is accurately dated.

So, positively dating when the Gospels were written immediately becomes very difficult Matty/Adam/Anti-Anthrax.

Quote:

The gospels have been dated variously from shortly after the crucifixion, traditionally placed around 30 AD/CE to as late as a century and a half afterwards.

[Source]

Quote:

It is important to understand that the dating of the Gospels and other New Testament books is at best an educated guess and at worst foolish speculation. For example, suggested dates for the writing of the Gospel of Matthew range from as early as A.D. 40 to as late as A.D. 140.

[Source]

Quote:

Noted New Testament scholar, F.F. Bruce, gives strong evidence that the New Testament was completed by A.D. 100.3 Most writings of the New Testament works were completed twenty to forty years before this. The Gospels are dated traditionally as follows: Mark is believed to be the first gospel written around A.D. 60. Matthew and Luke follow and are written between A.D. 60-70; John is the final gospel, written between A.D. 90-100.

[Source]

Quote:

The first time early church fathers mention 4 gospels by name is between 170 and 190 A.D.kinda late for [the] claimed first century writing of the 4 gospels.

[Source]

So, Adam/Matty/Anti-Anthrax, all you need do is a little reading. Roll Eyes

Back to top

It seems that I have upset a Moderator and are forbidden from using memes. So much for Freedom of Speech. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

IP Logged

Adamant

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 1893
Brisbane
Gender: male

Re: Terrorist protested Terror laws
Reply #68 - Dec 27^th, 2014 at 11:49am

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 24^th, 2014 at 6:51pm:

Adamant wrote on Dec 24^th, 2014 at 6:28pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 24^th, 2014 at 5:31pm:

We have essentially no evidence that Christ existed.

Do you have evidence to prove your claim Brian? Roll Eyes

If not, why make the claim in the first place? Roll Eyes

One cannot prove a negative, it is logically impossible, Adam. Unlike you, I need proof as to Christ's existence, I do not rely on faith. Therefore, as there is no verifiable proof that he existed, beyond circumstantial evidence in secondary sources, I must assume that he is a creature of myth and legend, until shown otherwise. Call me simply "doubting Thomas". I need to poke my fingers in the wounds. As Thomas was made Saint Thomas, it is obvious that God doesn't dislike doubters, Adam. Perhaps you need to be as tolerant? Roll Eyes

You have no proof, then why make the foolish claim. Out of ignorance Grin

Back to top

In real life Gandalf is known as Mr 10%

IP Logged

Brian Ross

Gold Member

Offline

Representative of me

Posts: 44372

Re: Terrorist protested Terror laws
Reply #69 - Dec 27^th, 2014 at 1:42pm

Adamant wrote on Dec 27^th, 2014 at 11:49am:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 24^th, 2014 at 6:51pm:

Adamant wrote on Dec 24^th, 2014 at 6:28pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 24^th, 2014 at 5:31pm:

We have essentially no evidence that Christ existed.

Do you have evidence to prove your claim Brian? Roll Eyes

If not, why make the claim in the first place? Roll Eyes

One cannot prove a negative, it is logically impossible, Adam. Unlike you, I need proof as to Christ's existence, I do not rely on faith. Therefore, as there is no verifiable proof that he existed, beyond circumstantial evidence in secondary sources, I must assume that he is a creature of myth and legend, until shown otherwise. Call me simply "doubting Thomas". I need to poke my fingers in the wounds. As Thomas was made Saint Thomas, it is obvious that God doesn't dislike doubters, Adam. Perhaps you need to be as tolerant? Roll Eyes

You have no proof, then why make the foolish claim. Out of ignorance Grin

Matty/Adam, lets see YOUR evidence that Christ actually existed. Independent, verifiable evidence that he was the "Son of God", please.

As I've said, I do not have to prove a negative. You have to prove your positive.

I look forward to your treatise that does not rely upon faith. Roll Eyes

Back to top

It seems that I have upset a Moderator and are forbidden from using memes. So much for Freedom of Speech. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

IP Logged

greggerypeccary

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 144111
Gender: male

Re: Terrorist protested Terror laws
Reply #70 - Dec 27^th, 2014 at 1:46pm

Adamant wrote on Dec 27^th, 2014 at 11:49am:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 24^th, 2014 at 6:51pm:

Adamant wrote on Dec 24^th, 2014 at 6:28pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 24^th, 2014 at 5:31pm:

We have essentially no evidence that Christ existed.

Do you have evidence to prove your claim Brian? Roll Eyes

If not, why make the claim in the first place? Roll Eyes

One cannot prove a negative, it is logically impossible, Adam. Unlike you, I need proof as to Christ's existence, I do not rely on faith. Therefore, as there is no verifiable proof that he existed, beyond circumstantial evidence in secondary sources, I must assume that he is a creature of myth and legend, until shown otherwise. Call me simply "doubting Thomas". I need to poke my fingers in the wounds. As Thomas was made Saint Thomas, it is obvious that God doesn't dislike doubters, Adam. Perhaps you need to be as tolerant? Roll Eyes

You have no proof, then why make the foolish claim. Out of ignorance

It's got nothing to do with ignorance.

As he stated, "there is no verifiable proof that he existed, beyond circumstantial evidence in secondary sources".

If you wish to maintain that he did exist, it's up to you to substantiate that claim with some solid, verifiable evidence.

I'm obviously not going to hold you to that though because, as we all know, none actually exists.

If you subscribe to that particular brand of faith, that's fine. Good luck to you. However, don't try to pretend like it's anything other than just that - faith.

Back to top

IP Logged

moses

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 6353

Re: Terrorist protested Terror laws
Reply #71 - Dec 27^th, 2014 at 5:53pm

Brian Ross wrote:
Quote:

Or perhaps they did it because they decided that they did not like say, the Gnostic tradition which held, like Islam that there is no need for something akin to a formal, hierarchical church between the believer and God?

Moses, you assume that the early Church fathers were not human and just as subject to their egos and of course their own distorted views on the message that they believe Christ had delivered to them. Why?

Now you go down another tangent trying to get away from the fact that the Bible has many sources, is not monolithic.

I wrote **I don't accept anything and everything (the writings you mention for example) as definitely being truthful or of high spiritual value. (it's a bit like you telling me islam is a religion of peace, has nothing to do with terrorism)

What was the agenda of the writings you mention?

I understand that certain writings were cast aside, as examination determined them to be disingenuous.

Seems clear to me that I said that the early church cast aside (edited)writings which they deemed disingenuous after close examination.**

Nothing there about were they human.

They made the decision a couple of thousand years ago, as to what to include in the doctrine.

If you don't like it, write your own bible.

Quote:

Where is the evidence that those people ever existed? We have essentially no evidence that Christ existed. Therefore, how likely was it that some peasants from Palestine would have either been able or lived long enough to write the gospels (as they are generally acknowledged to have been written some 75-150 years after the date usually given for the death of Christ)?

I know that the doctrine exists in the psychical, I now the doctrine is not monolithic, I know it was generally written many years after the event.

All of which has nothing with your running around desperately trying to avoid the fact Christianity is not monolithic.

Quote:

All contained in The Bible, Moses, as you well know. Be it from Exodus through to Revelations. I cannot quote the entire Bible, now can I

You were merely asked to quote relevant Christian doctrine, you have once again run away from the question.

You will never be able to give Christian doctrine which instructs Christians to wage unrelenting war on the unbelievers and to rape, pillage, enslave and burn them and their families and their cities?

Your say so does not count, provide the actual Christian doctrine.

Oh that's right you can't, your lying again.

Quote:

Immaterial, Moses, it still remains the "divinely inspired" literal "word of God". Are you going to dispute that?

If you do, you are attacking one of the fundamental beliefs of Christianity.

You're running around in circles again, the two words are not interchangeable

literal adjective: Being or reflecting the actual or genuine character of something

If it was the literal word of God it would have been actually spoken by God.

The bible doctrine was spoken / preached by men **inspired* (asterisks for you Karnal) is the appropriate word.

inspired adjective: Excellent, beautiful or creative

The doctrine is the actual / literal words of men and women, they were inspired to articulate the doctrine.

Back to top

IP Logged

Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 98471	Re: Terrorist protested Terror laws Reply #72 - Dec 27^th, 2014 at 7:29pm Thanks for the asterisks, Moses. Are you saying no Christians were inspired to go out and forcibly convert most of the known world? Or were those who imposed Christian doctrine on pagans not Christians? Which one was it?
Back to top	IP Logged

moses

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 6353

Re: Terrorist protested Terror laws
Reply #73 - Dec 27^th, 2014 at 7:56pm

Pushing the barrow for another round of same old, same old Karnal?

You need to brush up on what the doctrine says, regarding the duties of a Christian, what the doctrine says about false commands given as doctrine, I am quiet happy to use the doctrine / teachings of Christ as the adjudicator of who or what constitutes Christians and Christianity.

Back to top

IP Logged

Karnal

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 98471

Re: Terrorist protested Terror laws
Reply #74 - Dec 27^th, 2014 at 8:01pm

moses wrote on Dec 27^th, 2014 at 7:56pm:

Pushing the barrow for another round of same old, same old Karnal?

You need to brush up on what the doctrine says, regarding the duties of a Christian, what the doctrine says about false commands given as doctrine, I am quiet happy to use the doctrine / teachings of Christ as the adjudicator of who or what constitutes Christians and Christianity.

So you’re saying those Christians who went out and imposed Christian doctrine on non-Christians were misguided about Christian doctrine?

You didn’t say, Moses.

Same old same old? Are you saying your posts change?

Back to top

IP Logged