Australian Politics Forum - Jurors think docks mean guilt: research

John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 77853 Gender:	Re: Jurors think docks mean guilt: research Reply #15 - Nov 8^th, 2014 at 12:44pm ian wrote on Nov 8^th, 2014 at 12:41am: 99 percent of people who appear in court are guilty anyway, why bother with a legal system at all then? lets just leave it up to you to decide ..... afterall, look at you, you don't even need to see the evidence and you already know they are guilty
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ImSpartacus2

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Re: Jurors think docks mean guilt: research
Reply #16 - Nov 8^th, 2014 at 2:43pm

ian wrote on Nov 8^th, 2014 at 12:43am:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Nov 7^th, 2014 at 11:57pm:

Laugh till you cry wrote on Nov 7^th, 2014 at 11:55pm:

ian wrote on Nov 7^th, 2014 at 11:33pm:

a lot of obviously guilty people get off. Anything that balances the scales a bit the other way is a good thing.

So you consider innocent people being pronounced guilty balances the scales?

He just hung you by the balls, Ian. You've earned my respect for some views.. this is not one, and rather a demonstration of naivety and the power of hearsay..

Ive sat through enough trials to have a reasoned opinion on this Wink

Ohhh, weve just seen you express an opinion, there is nothing reasoned about it. Its comparable to the hysterical knee jerk cr@p in the Daily Telegraph and its scares of criminals under every bed and meanwhile our liberties are being progressively eroded because you allow emotion to overcome your good sense.

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ImSpartacus2

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Re: Jurors think docks mean guilt: research
Reply #17 - Nov 8^th, 2014 at 2:48pm

ian wrote on Nov 8^th, 2014 at 2:00am:

ive never sat on a jury. I have been a witness for the prosecution many times Does this help you out Grappler?

I think grappler he's telling you he's an ex copper (or worse still for our community, still a copper) which of coursae renders his opinion in these matters of little value for lack of objectivity.

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Aussie

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Re: Jurors think docks mean guilt: research
Reply #18 - Nov 8^th, 2014 at 4:20pm

freediver wrote on Nov 8^th, 2014 at 9:04am:

Watching a 1 minute video is not the same thing as sitting in a criminal trial for a week or so. You are asking them to make a judgement without hearing the evidence. What else are they going to judge on?

Incorrect ~ There were full mock Trials with the accused in three distinct positions, not just "Hey Jury.....is he guilty or not guilty" based solely on where the accused was positioned. The only change in each Moot was the position of the accused......not sure about whether the Jury composition was changed.....that too would be a difficult control factor.

Grappler is correct. There is no founded research which demonstrates that a guilty man was acquitted. There cannot be.....what person found not guilty is going to walk out of the Court Room and pronounce....."I am guilty!" Given the laws (which have been recently watered down) on double jeopardy, there is no point in pursuing, or further investigating the case an accused after an acquittal.

Ian......pretty silly dropping hints that you have some expertise on these matters if you are not willing to explain the basis for the claim so we can evaluate the credibility of what you say as a self anointed 'Guru.'

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ian

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Re: Jurors think docks mean guilt: research
Reply #19 - Nov 8^th, 2014 at 5:52pm

Aussie wrote on Nov 8^th, 2014 at 4:20pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 8^th, 2014 at 9:04am:

Watching a 1 minute video is not the same thing as sitting in a criminal trial for a week or so. You are asking them to make a judgement without hearing the evidence. What else are they going to judge on?

Incorrect ~ There were full mock Trials with the accused in three distinct positions, not just "Hey Jury.....is he guilty or not guilty" based solely on where the accused was positioned. The only change in each Moot was the position of the accused......not sure about whether the Jury composition was changed.....that too would be a difficult control factor.

Grappler is correct. There is no founded research which demonstrates that a guilty man was acquitted. There cannot be.....what person found not guilty is going to walk out of the Court Room and pronounce....."I am guilty!" Given the laws (which have been recently watered down) on double jeopardy, there is no point in pursuing, or further investigating the case an accused after an acquittal.

Ian......pretty silly dropping hints that you have some expertise on these matters if you are not willing to explain the basis for the claim so we can evaluate the credibility of what you say as a self anointed 'Guru.'

I never appointed myself a guru, neither did I claim expertise, I will leave that up to you, merely pointing out when I was challenged as a person with no experience that i do have experience in these matters. Is your ego challenged? And you know damn well that the system is very biased towards the rights of the guilty so you can drop the act..

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ian Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 9451	Re: Jurors think docks mean guilt: research Reply #20 - Nov 8^th, 2014 at 5:54pm ive seen the same nonsense repeated that aboriginal people are much more likely to be incarcerated because they are aboriginal. Nonsense, probably less likely because they have access to legal resources the rest of us dont.
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ian

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Re: Jurors think docks mean guilt: research
Reply #21 - Nov 8^th, 2014 at 5:58pm

John Smith wrote on Nov 8^th, 2014 at 12:44pm:

ian wrote on Nov 8^th, 2014 at 12:41am:

99 percent of people who appear in court are guilty anyway,

why bother with a legal system at all then? lets just leave it up to you to decide ..... afterall, look at you, you don't even need to see the evidence and you already know they are guilty

Cheesy

actually Im basing my claim on seeing the evidence. There are also a lot of crims who get nicked and convicted for crimes they didnt convict who turn around at the end of it, shrug their shoulders and say "oh well, Ive done plenty of stuff I have gotten away with so I probably deserve this one" very, very common and one of the reasons frustrated coppers sometimes fit up crims for crimes.

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Aussie

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Re: Jurors think docks mean guilt: research
Reply #22 - Nov 8^th, 2014 at 6:05pm

Quote:

a lot of obviously guilty people get off. Anything that balances the scales a bit the other way is a good thing.

Quote:

99 percent of people who appear in court are guilty anyway, the coppers know they have to bring the evidence to court before they have prospect of conviction. Resources are limited and have to be allocated, its not even a case that every known crime is even going to be eventually prosecuted even though the perpertrators are known. Theres too much bias in court towards the rights of the accused also, theres an enormous amount of guilty people get off scott free compared to the extreme rarity of an innocent person being found guilty.

Quote:

Ive sat through enough trials to have a reasoned opinion on this

Quote:

I have been a witness for the prosecution many times Does this help you out Grappler?

Quote:

ive seen the same nonsense repeated that aboriginal people are much more likely to be incarcerated because they are aboriginal. Nonsense, probably less likely because they have access to legal resources the rest of us dont.

Quote:

actually Im basing my claim on seeing the evidence. There are also a lot of crims who get nicked and convicted for crimes they didnt convict who turn around at the end of it, shrug their shoulders and say "oh well, Ive done plenty of stuff I have gotten away with so I probably deserve this one" very, very common and one of the reasons frustrated coppers sometimes fit up crims for crimes.

All that reads like someone claiming to have expertise/experience....yet you fail to explain what it is.

Ergo, self anointed Guru.

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ian

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Re: Jurors think docks mean guilt: research
Reply #23 - Nov 8^th, 2014 at 6:05pm

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Nov 8^th, 2014 at 1:15am:

Are you serious? Coppers bring anything they want to court in the expectation that it will be accepted without question - and it matters not one whit what the hard evidence is.

Doesnt work that way, the prosecution has to prove guilt.
Quote:

In any handling of law where the unsupported word of the accuser holds sway - 99% of those accused are innocent....

I would say there are certain crimes where this is likely to happen and others where it does not, sexual abuse cases for instance, not cut and dried at all and very hard to separate the emotion. Still the law s firmly in favour of the rights of the accused despite this, a clever lawyer can work wonders.

Quote:

SHOW ME? You are mislead by propaganda and lies and television bullshit from America - the country with the highest rate of incarceration AND the highest rate of wrongful imprisonment. SHOW ME one case where someone totally guilty has gotten off scot free!

Not at all, I dont even watch TV.

Quote:

SHOW ME, ian - ONE case you have sat on where you KNOW the defendant was guilty and got off - and tell me why and how.

Lay that case out here and now and SHOW ME the evidence.

Your lack of real experience is showing....

How can I do this? however let me think about it for a while.

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ian

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Re: Jurors think docks mean guilt: research
Reply #24 - Nov 8^th, 2014 at 6:10pm

Aussie wrote on Nov 8^th, 2014 at 6:05pm:

Quote:

a lot of obviously guilty people get off. Anything that balances the scales a bit the other way is a good thing.

Quote:

99 percent of people who appear in court are guilty anyway, the coppers know they have to bring the evidence to court before they have prospect of conviction. Resources are limited and have to be allocated, its not even a case that every known crime is even going to be eventually prosecuted even though the perpertrators are known. Theres too much bias in court towards the rights of the accused also, theres an enormous amount of guilty people get off scott free compared to the extreme rarity of an innocent person being found guilty.

Quote:

Ive sat through enough trials to have a reasoned opinion on this

Quote:

I have been a witness for the prosecution many times Does this help you out Grappler?

Quote:

ive seen the same nonsense repeated that aboriginal people are much more likely to be incarcerated because they are aboriginal. Nonsense, probably less likely because they have access to legal resources the rest of us dont.

Quote:

actually Im basing my claim on seeing the evidence. There are also a lot of crims who get nicked and convicted for crimes they didnt convict who turn around at the end of it, shrug their shoulders and say "oh well, Ive done plenty of stuff I have gotten away with so I probably deserve this one" very, very common and one of the reasons frustrated coppers sometimes fit up crims for crimes.

All that reads like someone claiming to have expertise/experience....yet you fail to explain what it is.

Ergo, self anointed Guru.

awww, your ego is challenged. isnt that cute. Despite this you will be getting very little personal information from me on an internet forum despite your obvious wish for it. way ahead of you pal Wink

Choose to or not to believe the experience I have claimed, up to you. Dont really care.

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Sprintcyclist

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Re: Jurors think docks mean guilt: research
Reply #25 - Nov 8^th, 2014 at 6:12pm

ian wrote on Nov 8^th, 2014 at 5:54pm:

ive seen the same nonsense repeated that aboriginal people are much more likely to be incarcerated because they are aboriginal. Nonsense, probably less likely because they have access to legal resources the rest of us dont.

if an abbo was in the dock I would have voted for life jail.

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Aussie

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Re: Jurors think docks mean guilt: research
Reply #26 - Nov 8^th, 2014 at 6:14pm

Quote:

awww, your ego is challenged. isnt that cute. Despite this you will be getting very little personal information from me on an internet forum despite your obvious wih for it. way ahead of you pal

You have made the offering of personal information, suggesting some expertise which establishes credibility to what to me are absurdly outrageuos claims. Unless you can back up those assertions with some credentials worth taking note of, or some evidence, Members are entitled to conclude you are merely trolling.

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Rocketanski Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1335 Gender:	Re: Jurors think docks mean guilt: research Reply #27 - Nov 8^th, 2014 at 6:28pm The glass panels are to stop dead shi.ts throwing things at jurors, man handling court personnel and spitting. Let me guess, the do-gooders prefer that?
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Aussie Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 39464 Gender:	Re: Jurors think docks mean guilt: research Reply #28 - Nov 8^th, 2014 at 6:32pm Rocketanski wrote on Nov 8^th, 2014 at 6:28pm: The glass panels are to stop dead shi.ts throwing things at jurors, man handling court personnel and spitting. Let me guess, the do-gooders prefer that? I don't think anyone has suggested that.
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Rocketanski Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1335 Gender:	Re: Jurors think docks mean guilt: research Reply #29 - Nov 8^th, 2014 at 6:45pm What was the purpose of the study then, kind sir?
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