Australian Politics Forum - Government reported to favour Japanese submarines

Vic

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Re: Government reported to favour Japanese submarines
Reply #15 - Sep 8^th, 2014 at 12:57pm

Armchair_Politician wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 11:06am:

Vic wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 9:45am:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 9:15am:

My wife's uncle was an instructor on the Collins and he said while they have been unreliable and suffered problems, they're one of the deadliest and quietest subs in the world on a good day. They're much quieter than the American or British nuclear subs. However, those good days are few and far between, he said.

I probably know him then. I was involved in sea trials on Collins in the 90s, and also worked for some time at the Sub School at Garden Island.

His name is Matt. Was based in WA. That help?

Unfortunately no! There were quite a few Matts around. Did he work for Defence or SMA?

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“Fantastic. Great move. Well done Angus”

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Armchair_Politician

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Re: Government reported to favour Japanese submarines
Reply #16 - Sep 8^th, 2014 at 1:15pm

Vic wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 12:57pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 11:06am:

Vic wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 9:45am:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 9:15am:

My wife's uncle was an instructor on the Collins and he said while they have been unreliable and suffered problems, they're one of the deadliest and quietest subs in the world on a good day. They're much quieter than the American or British nuclear subs. However, those good days are few and far between, he said.

I probably know him then. I was involved in sea trials on Collins in the 90s, and also worked for some time at the Sub School at Garden Island.

His name is Matt. Was based in WA. That help?

Unfortunately no! There were quite a few Matts around. Did he work for Defence or SMA?

Not sure. I've only met him once. I have a feeling it may have been BAE, but I may be wrong.

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Grappler Racist Filth

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Re: Government reported to favour Japanese submarines
Reply #17 - Sep 8^th, 2014 at 2:02pm

Armchair_Politician wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 9:12am:

The Heartless Felon wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 8:37am:

St George of the Garden wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 8:27am:

Yup, better to buy Jap subs, see more unionised manufacturing jobs go. Soon—no more unions!

“It is ludicrous to think we can design a submarine — nobody believes that,” one insider said. - from the OP.

Even if they could design it, union labour would ensure that it would be late and waaaaaayyyy over cost...

Design is half the problem. The other half is building them and the Collins subs have been plagued by poor welds, as has happened on the AWD. Seems the Aussie ship builders aren't learning from past mistakes at all!

Could that be from lack of practice?

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Grappler Racist Filth

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Re: Government reported to favour Japanese submarines
Reply #18 - Sep 8^th, 2014 at 2:05pm

Vic wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 9:44am:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 9:13am:

Vic wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 8:23am:

It will be interestin to see if the US of A will allow their fire control and weapons systems to be installed in these

If we installed that then why not? The Japs won't be using our subs if they build them, we will be using them.

The americans are very tight about giving their technology away. It took a lot of negoitation and rigour to get the AEGIS on the Spanish design AWD. Same as the Fire Control and Torpedo on the Collins, they are very protective of their IP

Usually they offer the second string stuff first - you need to get right in their pockets to get the good oil.

Export F-16s do not possess the US fire control and management systems and are inferior in air-to-air against US F-16s.

You can't expect them to give away everything..... ya gotta retain an edge....

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Prime Minister for Canyons

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Re: Government reported to favour Japanese submarines
Reply #19 - Sep 8^th, 2014 at 2:11pm

Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 2:05pm:

Vic wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 9:44am:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 9:13am:

Vic wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 8:23am:

It will be interestin to see if the US of A will allow their fire control and weapons systems to be installed in these

If we installed that then why not? The Japs won't be using our subs if they build them, we will be using them.

The americans are very tight about giving their technology away. It took a lot of negoitation and rigour to get the AEGIS on the Spanish design AWD. Same as the Fire Control and Torpedo on the Collins, they are very protective of their IP

Usually they offer the second string stuff first - you need to get right in their pockets to get the good oil.

Export F-16s do not possess the US fire control and management systems and are inferior in air-to-air against US F-16s.

You can't expect them to give away everything..... ya gotta retain an edge....

Hence why we had no chance of getting F-22s

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In a time of universal deceit — telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

No evidence whatsoever it can be attributed to George Orwell or Eric Arthur Blair (in fact the same guy)

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St George of the Garden Gold Member Offline http://tinyurl.com/n 3o8m2x Posts: 9809 Gender:	Re: Government reported to favour Japanese submarines Reply #20 - Sep 8^th, 2014 at 3:20pm A govt with balls (i.e. not an Abbott led one) would start negotiating to buy the Russian planes. Bet the yanks would be willing to sell us the raptors then!
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King FriYAY II Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2109	Re: Government reported to favour Japanese submarines Reply #21 - Sep 8^th, 2014 at 3:27pm Range has been a major factor against the design — the Soryu has a range of about 11,000 km at 12 km/hr compared with 22,000 km at 19 km/hr for the Collins Class That is why as far back as I think 1954 – there has been nuclear powered subs. All our new subs should be nuclear powered.
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adelcrow Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20133 everywhere Gender:	Re: Government reported to favour Japanese submarines Reply #22 - Sep 8^th, 2014 at 3:27pm Yep......just another case of abbotts election lies and deception
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Grappler Racist Filth

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Re: Government reported to favour Japanese submarines
Reply #23 - Sep 8^th, 2014 at 3:28pm

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 2:11pm:

Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 2:05pm:

Vic wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 9:44am:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 9:13am:

Vic wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 8:23am:

It will be interestin to see if the US of A will allow their fire control and weapons systems to be installed in these

If we installed that then why not? The Japs won't be using our subs if they build them, we will be using them.

The americans are very tight about giving their technology away. It took a lot of negoitation and rigour to get the AEGIS on the Spanish design AWD. Same as the Fire Control and Torpedo on the Collins, they are very protective of their IP

Usually they offer the second string stuff first - you need to get right in their pockets to get the good oil.

Export F-16s do not possess the US fire control and management systems and are inferior in air-to-air against US F-16s.

You can't expect them to give away everything..... ya gotta retain an edge....

Hence why we had no chance of getting F-22s

Yup... way back in the F/A-18 days, Oz could have purchased the same number of F-16's AND A-10s* for ground support/tactical air.

Not a single A-10 was exported... I said at the time Oz would take the 18 since it had two engines, and despite its prodigious fuel consumption and thus reduced payload.

Oh, well - goo to know our betters don't seriously think we'll be dusting it up with anyone for real in the foreseeable future....

* the A-10 tasked with low level tank-busting found it difficult in Desert Storm I and copped a lot of damage, and was subsequently limited to above 12,000 feet.. same as Europe in WWII..... never fly below 12,000 feet over occupied territory...

Of course, the Russian bought anti-air guns were simply modifications on WWII tech, with some bells and whistles.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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King FriYAY II

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Re: Government reported to favour Japanese submarines
Reply #24 - Sep 8^th, 2014 at 3:29pm

Armchair_Politician wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 9:15am:

My wife's uncle was an instructor on the Collins and he said while they have been unreliable and suffered problems, they're one of the deadliest and quietest subs in the world on a good day. They're much quieter than the American or British nuclear subs. However, those good days are few and far between, he said.

Really?

I thought one of the bad things from day 1 was the noisy diesel powered Collins?

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Grappler Racist Filth

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Re: Government reported to favour Japanese submarines
Reply #25 - Sep 8^th, 2014 at 3:33pm

King FriYAY II wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 3:27pm:

Range has been a major factor against the design — the Soryu has a range of about 11,000 km at 12 km/hr compared with 22,000 km at 19 km/hr for the Collins Class

That is why as far back as I think 1954 – there has been nuclear powered subs.

All our new subs should be nuclear powered.

Hmm - yes.. the pumps etc in the cooling systems are comparatively noisy, compared to electric.... do we want attack subs or boomers armed with missiles? Depends on your defensive posture.....

Notwithstanding, I am wary of submarines designed by an potential future foe... don't laugh... it's a scenario that Japan will again be a foe in the Pacific in the ongoing saga of The Second Hundred Year's War, same as India.... you may think that odd... there are many factors involved.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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BigOl64

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Re: Government reported to favour Japanese submarines
Reply #26 - Sep 8^th, 2014 at 4:47pm

Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 3:28pm:

Yup... way back in the F/A-18 days, Oz could have purchased the same number of F-16's AND A-10s* for ground support/tactical air.

Not a single A-10 was exported... I said at the time Oz would take the 18 since it had two engines, and despite its prodigious fuel consumption and thus reduced payload.

Oh, well - goo to know our betters don't seriously think we'll be dusting it up with anyone for real in the foreseeable future....

* the A-10 tasked with low level tank-busting found it difficult in Desert Storm I and copped a lot of damage, and was subsequently limited to above 12,000 feet.. same as Europe in WWII..... never fly below 12,000 feet over occupied territory...

Of course, the Russian bought anti-air guns were simply modifications on WWII tech, with some bells and whistles.

The reason they like 2 engines instead on one, is a history with the Mirages flaming out on a regular basis, kinda makes the drivers nervous. They have become a lot more reliable these and hence the move away from double burners.

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King FriYAY II

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Re: Government reported to favour Japanese submarines
Reply #27 - Sep 8^th, 2014 at 4:51pm

Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 3:33pm:

King FriYAY II wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 3:27pm:

Range has been a major factor against the design — the Soryu has a range of about 11,000 km at 12 km/hr compared with 22,000 km at 19 km/hr for the Collins Class

That is why as far back as I think 1954 – there has been nuclear powered subs.

All our new subs should be nuclear powered.

Hmm - yes.. the pumps etc in the cooling systems are comparatively noisy, compared to electric.... do we want attack subs or boomers armed with missiles? Depends on your defensive posture.....

Notwithstanding, I am wary of submarines designed by an potential future foe... don't laugh... it's a scenario that Japan will again be a foe in the Pacific in the ongoing saga of The Second Hundred Year's War, same as India.... you may think that odd... there are many factors involved.

Collins class are electric! I Thought they were diesel... Undecided

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gone Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 744 somewhere Gender:	Re: Government reported to favour Japanese submarines Reply #28 - Sep 8^th, 2014 at 5:08pm 100% waste of money. Another good reason to stop paying taxes.
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BigOl64 Gold Member Offline Posts: 14438 Townsville QLD Gender:	Re: Government reported to favour Japanese submarines Reply #29 - Sep 8^th, 2014 at 6:23pm gone wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 5:08pm: 100% waste of money. Another good reason to stop paying taxes. Protecting the sovereignty of ones country is 100% waste of money, good one
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