Australian Politics Forum - "You don't see myself going to church and doing.."

Brian Ross

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"You don't see myself going to church and doing.."
Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 10:52am

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Rock art vandalism, including graffiti, imitation carvings, devastates WA Aboriginal elders

Vandals have permanently damaged ancient Aboriginal rock art in Western Australia's Pilbara region, leaving elders devastated and forcing rangers to document graffiti and imitation carvings.

The damage has been discovered at the site of some of the world's oldest and largest Aboriginal carvings, which have laid undisturbed for centuries on the Burrup Peninsula, in the shadow of Australia's biggest and richest resource projects.

"This is the oldest rock art in the world, and people tend to still climb over it and do a bit of damage in all different ways," elder and senior cultural ranger Geoffrey Togo said.

"The main one we seem to be finding lately is people spray painting on rock art, and on the face of rocks, and some other old carvings.

"Some seem to be carving themselves, their name or something else, on top of old carvings."

Mr Togo said traditional owners were appalled.

"It makes me angry when they do it," he said.

"You don't see myself going to church and doing the same thing in the church or someone's home.

"This is basically my backyard, well everyone's backyard really, so why go and destroy things you don't know anything about?" he asked

Done out of ignorance or spite? In this day and age, is there any excuse for such vandalism? Roll Eyes

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gizmo_2655 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 16010 South West NSW Gender:	Re: "You don't see myself going to church and doing.." Reply #1 - Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 10:57am Spite would be my guess. Can't see how anyone in Australia can claim 'ignorance'.
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SweetLambo Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1271	Re: "You don't see myself going to church and doing.." Reply #2 - Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 2:42pm "You don't see myself going to church and doing.. " That would probably be because people that do aspire to greater heights than violence like the muslims do. What gives the abo's rights to graffiti where they like and no one else today ?
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Brian Ross

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Re: "You don't see myself going to church and doing.."
Reply #3 - Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 3:14pm

SweetLambo wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 2:42pm:

[Stupid reference to Muslims deleted]
What gives the abo's rights to graffiti where they like and no one else today ?

An interesting question. Perhaps the difference is when the Aborigines did it (thousands of years ago) and the reasons why they did it (cultural significance) and of course, that it is now a judged to be "art" where as modern graffiti is generally not?

Graffiti is generally understood, no matter when it was done, to be disrespectful of the original surface on which it is scrawled. That the Aboriginal rock art predates the modern graffiti would suggest that the modern graffiti is disrespectful (and it invariably is).

Why do white people feel the need to be disrespectful to Aboriginal art and culture? It shows ignorance and a racist devaluing of what is sacred to our Indigenes' culture.

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... Gold Member Offline Posts: 23673 WA Gender:	Re: "You don't see myself going to church and doing.." Reply #4 - Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 3:20pm It is very rude if the site really is of cultural significance. Unfortunately, what constitutes significance has been somewhat cheapened. Middens are deemed to be 'culturally signficiant' but they are literally just piles of garbage.
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gizmo_2655

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Re: "You don't see myself going to church and doing.."
Reply #5 - Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 3:44pm

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 3:14pm:

SweetLambo wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 2:42pm:

[Stupid reference to Muslims deleted]
What gives the abo's rights to graffiti where they like and no one else today ?

An interesting question. Perhaps the difference is when the Aborigines did it (thousands of years ago) and the reasons why they did it (cultural significance) and of course, that it is now a judged to be "art" where as modern graffiti is generally not?

Graffiti is generally understood, no matter when it was done, to be disrespectful of the original surface on which it is scrawled. That the Aboriginal rock art predates the modern graffiti would suggest that the modern graffiti is disrespectful (and it invariably is).

Why do white people feel the need to be disrespectful to Aboriginal art and culture? It shows ignorance and a racist devaluing of what is sacred to our Indigenes' culture.

Are you certain it was done by white people??

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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Brian Ross

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Re: "You don't see myself going to church and doing.."
Reply #6 - Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 3:48pm

... wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 3:20pm:

It is very rude if the site really is of cultural significance. Unfortunately, what constitutes significance has been somewhat cheapened. Middens are deemed to be 'culturally signficiant' but they are literally just piles of garbage.

Some people believe these are "culturally significant" as well:

They were, afterall just "rubbish dumps" to most people until their significance was pointed out...

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Brian Ross

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Re: "You don't see myself going to church and doing.."
Reply #7 - Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 3:51pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 3:44pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 3:14pm:

SweetLambo wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 2:42pm:

[Stupid reference to Muslims deleted]
What gives the abo's rights to graffiti where they like and no one else today ?

An interesting question. Perhaps the difference is when the Aborigines did it (thousands of years ago) and the reasons why they did it (cultural significance) and of course, that it is now a judged to be "art" where as modern graffiti is generally not?

Graffiti is generally understood, no matter when it was done, to be disrespectful of the original surface on which it is scrawled. That the Aboriginal rock art predates the modern graffiti would suggest that the modern graffiti is disrespectful (and it invariably is).

Why do white people feel the need to be disrespectful to Aboriginal art and culture? It shows ignorance and a racist devaluing of what is sacred to our Indigenes' culture.

Are you certain it was done by white people??

A good point. I agree that I can not provided evidence with absolute certainty but I somehow doubt Indigenes from the area would do it...

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 51899 At my desk.	Re: "You don't see myself going to church and doing.." Reply #8 - Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 8:15pm Russel Coight....
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Adamant Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1893 Brisbane Gender:	Re: "You don't see myself going to church and doing.." Reply #9 - Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 8:47pm Muslim black ops obviously.
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...

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Re: "You don't see myself going to church and doing.."
Reply #10 - Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 9:31pm

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 3:48pm:

... wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 3:20pm:

It is very rude if the site really is of cultural significance. Unfortunately, what constitutes significance has been somewhat cheapened. Middens are deemed to be 'culturally signficiant' but they are literally just piles of garbage.

Some people believe these are "culturally significant" as well:

http://inside.capitaland.com/images/static/stories/articles/2009/escape10091.jpg

http://www.michaeltellinger.com/images/stone-circles/P9200513.jpg

http://www.hotelclub.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/ayutthaya.jpg

http://atp.cx/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Machu-Picchu1.jpg

They were, afterall just "rubbish dumps" to most people until their significance was pointed out...

Wrong, they were never rubbish dumps.

When I said a midden is literally a garbage dump, that's exactly what I meant.

Quote:

A midden (also kitchen midden or shell heap) (from early Scandinavian; Norwegian: mødding, Danish: mødding, Swedish regional: mödding)[1] is an old dump for domestic waste[2] which may consist of animal bone, human excrement, botanical material, vermin, shells, sherds, lithics (especially debitage), and other artifacts and ecofacts associated with past human occupation.

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In the fullness of time...

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gizmo_2655

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Re: "You don't see myself going to church and doing.."
Reply #11 - Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 9:37pm

... wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 9:31pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 3:48pm:

... wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 3:20pm:

It is very rude if the site really is of cultural significance. Unfortunately, what constitutes significance has been somewhat cheapened. Middens are deemed to be 'culturally signficiant' but they are literally just piles of garbage.

Some people believe these are "culturally significant" as well:

http://inside.capitaland.com/images/static/stories/articles/2009/escape10091.jpg

http://www.michaeltellinger.com/images/stone-circles/P9200513.jpg

http://www.hotelclub.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/ayutthaya.jpg

http://atp.cx/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Machu-Picchu1.jpg

They were, afterall just "rubbish dumps" to most people until their significance was pointed out...

Wrong, they were never rubbish dumps.

When I said a midden is literally a garbage dump, that's exactly what I meant.

Quote:

A midden (also kitchen midden or shell heap) (from early Scandinavian; Norwegian: mødding, Danish: mødding, Swedish regional: mödding)[1] is an old dump for domestic waste[2] which may consist of animal bone, human excrement, botanical material, vermin, shells, sherds, lithics (especially debitage), and other artifacts and ecofacts associated with past human occupation.

To an archaeologist, a midden (or any rubbish heap) is a great source of information about the culture.

And Brian, those places would never have been considered 'rubbish heaps', even to the earliest European explorers. Ruins perhaps, or wrecks, but not rubbish.

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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... Gold Member Offline Posts: 23673 WA Gender:	Re: "You don't see myself going to church and doing.." Reply #12 - Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 9:39pm gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 9:37pm: To an archaeologist, a midden (or any rubbish heap) is a great source of information about the culture. I'm sure it is. But culturally significant? GTFO. You ever seen anyone praying or doing a pilgrimage to the local landfill?
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gizmo_2655

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Re: "You don't see myself going to church and doing.."
Reply #13 - Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 9:48pm

... wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 9:39pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 9:37pm:

To an archaeologist, a midden (or any rubbish heap) is a great source of information about the culture.

I'm sure it is.

But culturally significant? GTFO. You ever seen anyone praying or doing a pilgrimage to the local landfill?

Well, not praying. Significant in that they can tell you a lot about how the people that used it lived, what they ate, what sort of materials they made their cookware out of, stuff like that.

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 41192 Gender:	Re: "You don't see myself going to church and doing.." Reply #14 - Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 10:06pm looks like someone spat dirt around their hand to me.
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