Australian Politics Forum - The UN Refugee Convention/Protocol is out of date

sir prince duke alevine

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Re: The UN Refugee Convention/Protocol is out of date
Reply #60 - Jul 6^th, 2014 at 6:34pm

Grendel wrote on Jul 6^th, 2014 at 5:55pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 6^th, 2014 at 5:36pm:

austranger wrote on Jul 6^th, 2014 at 5:30pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 6^th, 2014 at 5:23pm:

austranger wrote on Jul 6^th, 2014 at 5:22pm:

Kat wrote on Jul 6^th, 2014 at 5:02pm:

The only reason I can see for repudiating it would be in order to pander to the blatant
racists who support our current convention-violating mistreatment of asylum-seekers
and who wish to avoid international scrutiny and censure for doing so.

Under NO circumstances would I support repudiation of this convention.

On the contrary, I'd strongly oppose doing so. Why would I support the facilitation of
human rights abuses to the very perpetrators of such abuses?

IN charge? Abbott and Morrison should BE charged.

Please show me where the UN or it's conventions have ever prevented such abuses?
Ruining the social structure of Australia in a frenzy of idealistic feel-goodery is hardly likely to convince the "baddies" to mend their ways, is it? Grin

By the way, opposing immigration does not mean racism, that's really poor reasoning and unwarranted abuse.
Personally, I don't care whether they're black, brown, blue, white, green, or purple-spotted protestants from Pookeepski, wrack off, we're FULL! Grin

I guess you're alternative is ...?

How about concentrating on bringing the citizens we already have up to more than third-world status?
How about repairing and/or replacing our decaying infrastructure? Building new hospitals and schools?
Helping the Indig' to find and reach their full potential?
Once all that is achieved we can then open debate about immigration. You know, ASK the whole of Australia if and etc, rather than force someone else's ideology on them?
Get the idea? Wink

When Howard "stopped the boats" presumably a lot of money was saved, right? If so, tell me, during those days how much was, say, homelessness reduced by? How many new hospitals were built with federal money, that otherwise would not have been built? How many indigenous communities had their housing issues fixed? I'm with you to have a proper and equal society, but I suggest you're targeting the wrong area that you think stops us from getting there. People can care to safe people from persecution, and also care about fixing our homelessness issue. And is suggest if you do want to see such change, perhaps less wanting the government to cease foreign aid, and more demandin the government fix the multitudes of tax loopholes and repioritize their agenda towards service delivery and away from privatisation would result is greater outcome.

You have severe issues with chicken and the egg don't you?
When the boats stop.
When the Asylum Seekers stop coming by boat.
When the detention centres empty.
Then and only then, will the money being wasted on such things become available for better things.

where's that picture of yourself with your head up your ass? Time to post it for yourself I think. Cheesy

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Brian Ross Gold Member Offline Representative of me Posts: 46311	Re: The UN Refugee Convention/Protocol is out of date Reply #61 - Jul 6^th, 2014 at 7:29pm Grendel/Beowulf/Geoff, is a Xenophobe and up to his old tricks of trying to further his Hansonite agenda...
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woof woof

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Re: The UN Refugee Convention/Protocol is out of date
Reply #62 - Jul 6^th, 2014 at 7:47pm

Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Jul 6^th, 2014 at 6:00pm:

Grendel wrote on Jul 6^th, 2014 at 5:55pm:

You have severe issues with chicken and the egg don't you?
When the boats stop.
When the Asylum Seekers stop coming by boat.
When the detention centres empty.
Then and only then, will the money being wasted on such things become available for better things.

In that case it will never end. NOTHING will deter desperate people from seeking a better life. I think I prefer the 'work for the citizenship' concept associated with the GAIA....

there in lies the problem, people wanting a better life does not make you a refugee, no matter how busted ass the country is your leaving.

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Grendel

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Re: The UN Refugee Convention/Protocol is out of date
Reply #63 - Jul 7^th, 2014 at 12:12am

Aussie wrote on Jul 6^th, 2014 at 6:11pm:

Grendel wrote on Jul 6^th, 2014 at 6:07pm:

Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Jul 6^th, 2014 at 5:58pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jul 6^th, 2014 at 5:39pm:

I am in favour of asking the people of Australia how they want to process asylum seekers and whether Australia should cap the numbers and/or no longer accept them.

Too often i see a Government dictate to the people what they will do - when they are supposed to be the servant of the people.

We should ask Australians if they want to process asylum seekers offshore and if they want them coming of not.

(*falls off chair*)... Andrei! You've gotten rid of Hyde for a while.. welcome back Dr Jekyll!

Let the People decide! That would solve the whole argument. well.. nearly.. there will always be some who will be diehards.....

Well Andrei if we pull out of the current Convention, I'm all for onshore processing. Why do you think Labor and Liberal went for detention centres and offshore processing in the first place?

Wanna PUP Membership Application?

Nope.... I would fail the membership test...

I'm not a buffoon.

Do try and highlight stuff in context... Roll Eyes

not just bits of it Cheesy

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Grendel

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Re: The UN Refugee Convention/Protocol is out of date
Reply #64 - Jul 7^th, 2014 at 12:14am

skippy. wrote on Jul 6^th, 2014 at 6:13pm:

Grendel wrote on Jul 6^th, 2014 at 6:04pm:

[quote author=Aussie link=1404623417/50#50 date=1404633097]progs

I'm gonna tell Bam on you.... troll... Grin

Oh and Aussie your comprehension skills are lacking...

Instead of abusing Aussie maybe you could answer him? This is a good point.

Quote:

Their problem is that nowhere in their pre-election dogma did they say they will obliterate transparency and conceal from the citizens what they are doing in our name. [quote]

What's a good point? I failed to see any question in the post Skipperoo... wassup, med problems again?

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Grendel

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Re: The UN Refugee Convention/Protocol is out of date
Reply #65 - Jul 7^th, 2014 at 12:23am

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 6^th, 2014 at 6:33pm:

[quote author=austranger link=1404623417/54#54 date=1404633893]

The fact that Howard ignored infrastructure in favour of pork-barreling has little to do with it, except as yet another example of our poor leadership problems.
Constantly increasing our population artificially, especially with uneducated masses of poor people, defeats any real prospect of the necessary improvements I suggested.
I'm in complete agreement with your points about taxes and prioritisation. Since Foreign aid is mostly spent within Australia, and/or should be, I'd suggest only a small reduction in it, focusing it on our immediate neighbours and the truly needy. Giving Aid to Indonesia and such is a ludicrous idea, their budgets are bigger than ours, and they should solve their own problems. Accepting refugees is not a necessity, it's an ideological gesture only and does our nation little good in real terms, the rest of the world doesn't care one way or the other if truth be told, that's realpolitik.

The point is that the issues we have in Australia are not because we have signed the refugee convention and as a result accept people seeking asylum in this country, but rather it's because of poor governance by both parties. Howard ignoring issues in favour of pork-barreling has very much to do with it because it's the pork barreling that causes the inaction on real issues. It's also the pork barreling that results in this suggestion that a large population is unsustainable.

Actually it is not... it is living on the most arid populated continent on the planet.

And stopping the processing of refugees is hardly going to stop that. We need to do a complete overhaul of our major parties, let them know as a society what we actually care about, and only then will we see issues tackled.

But you keep voting for major parties or should I say PARTY don't you?

Accepting refugees is something we do as a lucky country that demonstrates our true strengths.

Nope.

Let's face it, wars, genocide, greed for power are all things that happen in reality, and there are things that we aren't exactly going to rid by some magical policy; not with the complex foreign relations that currently exist. And when people get tangled up in this, it's hardly their fault. And rather than us saying, "Oh it isn't a necessity for us to help you", we should be saying, "We recognise that as a human being you need help, and we are extending our help to you."

But that doesn't mean migrating their culture and population to our country.

That is why the refugee convention exists,

no it primarily exists because of what happened to the jews

to protect people who are in fear of persecution, it's not just because it was put in place under the cold war as a way of helping people out of communism, as Tony's women intimidating buddy suggests.

As for immigration, yes, in many cases these people come without wealth. Big deal. Our strength as a society is shown by helping these people to their feet, and as generations pass, their future kids, grandkids, etc will not, in the liklihood, be poor. They will be big contributors to our society, and that's a great thing.

really, then why after 5 years are most still on welfare... that is a Prog myth you just spouted there.

And let me make this clear: When we talk about refugees we are not talking about economic migrants. I do agree that the left in the past has also debated the issue incorrectly, myself included. We should be looking at asylum seekers as people who are TRULY facing persecution; not hard economic conditions. We should be looking at offering people protection only in the circumstances of potential persecution, and I do believe the left is wrong in disregarding temporary protection. The key to remember is that we need to offer protection, but perhaps looking at the issue as "resettlement must also be provided permanently" is incorrect. The key is to help in the interim, and help externally to ensure people can return to their homeland.

hallelujah maybe there is hope for you after all...

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Grendel

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Re: The UN Refugee Convention/Protocol is out of date
Reply #66 - Jul 7^th, 2014 at 12:29am

Quote:

Like I suggest, I share your anger at inaction on key Australian issues by governments current and past. But removing ourselves from the refugee convention is HARDLY going to help make this any better.

Why not we can come up with a new version and Australian version one that addresses the world today. One that won't be scammed and one that won't be abused and people cannot abuse our good will.

It'll only guarantee that more money is in the kitty to distribute in the form of diesel rebates for Gina and her fat mates. And that's about it.

Oh puhlease... enough of the political bias diatribe.

With regard to the refugee convention, I do think it's outdated.

ta da... how many years did it take you to figure that out?

But not for the reasons that Tony's women intimidating buddy suggests.

Puhlease enough of the stupid progressive leftard disrespect for once.

It's outdated because it doesn't treat the issue equally amongst signatory parties, and all nation members. I'd suggest that they do a proper review that looks at ensuring the permanent resettlement program is NOT a voluntary program amongst some nations.

Nations have a right to be sovereign, not under a one world government.

I'd also suggest that if nations decide to sign up, then they MUST ACTUALLY be able to provide proper protection; there is no worth in

combodia

signing up for instance, and not being able to actually offer adequate protection. ANd I do believe that it's time to put an end to this bullcrap that some countries, like Indonesia, Malaysia and Thailand can stay away and not sign up, yet still actively and fully participate in the global economy. If we want the issue to properly be looked at, all nations must provide adequate responses, and do their share.

Ah so you would like to be world dictator then? better if you make amendments or leave the Convention and create your own.

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Grendel

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Re: The UN Refugee Convention/Protocol is out of date
Reply #67 - Jul 7^th, 2014 at 12:32am

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 6^th, 2014 at 6:34pm:

Grendel wrote on Jul 6^th, 2014 at 5:55pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 6^th, 2014 at 5:36pm:

austranger wrote on Jul 6^th, 2014 at 5:30pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 6^th, 2014 at 5:23pm:

austranger wrote on Jul 6^th, 2014 at 5:22pm:

Kat wrote on Jul 6^th, 2014 at 5:02pm:

The only reason I can see for repudiating it would be in order to pander to the blatant
racists who support our current convention-violating mistreatment of asylum-seekers
and who wish to avoid international scrutiny and censure for doing so.

Under NO circumstances would I support repudiation of this convention.

On the contrary, I'd strongly oppose doing so. Why would I support the facilitation of
human rights abuses to the very perpetrators of such abuses?

IN charge? Abbott and Morrison should BE charged.

Please show me where the UN or it's conventions have ever prevented such abuses?
Ruining the social structure of Australia in a frenzy of idealistic feel-goodery is hardly likely to convince the "baddies" to mend their ways, is it? Grin

By the way, opposing immigration does not mean racism, that's really poor reasoning and unwarranted abuse.
Personally, I don't care whether they're black, brown, blue, white, green, or purple-spotted protestants from Pookeepski, wrack off, we're FULL! Grin

I guess you're alternative is ...?

How about concentrating on bringing the citizens we already have up to more than third-world status?
How about repairing and/or replacing our decaying infrastructure? Building new hospitals and schools?
Helping the Indig' to find and reach their full potential?
Once all that is achieved we can then open debate about immigration. You know, ASK the whole of Australia if and etc, rather than force someone else's ideology on them?
Get the idea? Wink

When Howard "stopped the boats" presumably a lot of money was saved, right? If so, tell me, during those days how much was, say, homelessness reduced by? How many new hospitals were built with federal money, that otherwise would not have been built? How many indigenous communities had their housing issues fixed? I'm with you to have a proper and equal society, but I suggest you're targeting the wrong area that you think stops us from getting there. People can care to safe people from persecution, and also care about fixing our homelessness issue. And is suggest if you do want to see such change, perhaps less wanting the government to cease foreign aid, and more demandin the government fix the multitudes of tax loopholes and repioritize their agenda towards service delivery and away from privatisation would result is greater outcome.

You have severe issues with chicken and the egg don't you?
When the boats stop.
When the Asylum Seekers stop coming by boat.
When the detention centres empty.
Then and only then, will the money being wasted on such things become available for better things.

where's that picture of yourself with your head up your ass? Time to post it for yourself I think. Cheesy

If you've got nothing... then best you say nothing. I just commented on your post and thanks for being on topic... pity you keep straying from the path with crap like this one.
My comment above BTW was completely correct.
Shows how pigheaded and biased people like yourself can become. Roll Eyes

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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: The UN Refugee Convention/Protocol is out of date Reply #68 - Jul 7^th, 2014 at 12:33am Brian Ross wrote on Jul 6^th, 2014 at 7:29pm: Grendel/Beowulf/Geoff, is a Xenophobe and up to his old tricks of trying to further his Hansonite agenda... Oh pssof bwian you mron.... Stop lying about me you obsessive overbearing twit. Go troll someone who cares. Bwian and Family...
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Brian Ross Gold Member Offline Representative of me Posts: 46311	Re: The UN Refugee Convention/Protocol is out of date Reply #69 - Jul 7^th, 2014 at 12:36am I see your usual response, Grendel/Beowulf/Geoff - ad hominem the moment you're challenged. So, how is Pauline keeping these days? Your heroine still ripping the Australian taxpayers off?
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Kytro

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Re: The UN Refugee Convention/Protocol is out of date
Reply #70 - Jul 7^th, 2014 at 8:27am

Grendel wrote on Jul 6^th, 2014 at 3:19pm:

Been my opinion for quite a while that it is time to amend or to abandon it. We are quite capable of making our own sovereign decisions on the subject.

I really don't know why you seem to think that having treaties means we don't have sovereign power.

If Australia wants to withdraw they should do so and quit pretending to do otherwise.

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