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Abbott Claims Oz Unsettled B4 British (Read 11168 times)
austranger
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Re: Abbott Claims Oz Unsettled B4 British
Reply #150 - Jul 5th, 2014 at 2:16pm
 
The British were Imperialists, their Terra Nullius claim was based on their observation that there was no nation, no organised people with a claim in their understanding of such claims.

Terra nullius (/ˈtɛrə nʌˈlaɪ.əs/, plural terrae nullius) is a Latin expression deriving from Roman law meaning "land belonging to no one",[1] which is used in international law to describe territory which has never been subject to the sovereignty of any state, or over which any prior sovereign has expressly or implicitly relinquished sovereignty. Sovereignty over territory which is terra nullius may be acquired through occupation,[2] though in some cases doing so would violate an international law or treaty.

Within their terms of reference at that time they were quite correct and their colonisation was thus entirely legal and justifiable at law.
You can't simply re-interpret their actions then under our concepts now and say they were thus wrong at that time, sorry.
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Re: Abbott Claims Oz Unsettled B4 British
Reply #151 - Jul 5th, 2014 at 2:36pm
 
ian wrote on Jul 5th, 2014 at 9:28am:
Enquiring mind wrote on Jul 5th, 2014 at 12:32am:
ian wrote on Jul 4th, 2014 at 11:00pm:
Enquiring mind wrote on Jul 4th, 2014 at 10:52pm:
ian wrote on Jul 4th, 2014 at 10:13pm:
40,000 years of stagnant progress. Do you think their life expectancy would be any higher if we added another 200 years to the 40,000? You think they would have invented penicillin?


Most of the Eora Sydney Aboriginal population died from smallpox.

Penicillin didn’t do them much good.

and yet their life expectancy is around 65 now. Despite their decisions to make appalling lifestyle choices. Im a realist, cultural collision was inevitable as a result of inevitable colonisation. The stronger culture took over the weaker one, what is strong about the aboriginal culture will survive and will become part of our australian culture. Pretending that aboriginal culture was something that it wasnt doesnt serve their future, the future is assimilation.


By this measure, the Indonesians are the stronger culture because they have a bigger army.

Aboriginal culture was a lot of things, as was 18th century British culture. Neither was perfect or evil.

One just happened to borrow gunpowder from the Chinese before the other.
Our ancestors didnt conquer the abos because they had a bigger army, it was culture and  technology. The sort of culture that made them develop technology to increase the food supply in response to population growth rather than practise infanticide.


There is nothing intrinsically superior about "British culture", but Britain did have something colonisers like the Spanish didn’t have: an interest in other cultures and places.

This came down to the influence of groups like the Royal Geographic Society. Where Spain wanted to capture souls for the church and nakedly exploit the resources of their colonies to pay back their loans, the British establishment wanted to map the world.

Britain - like the French - were genuinely curious about local people and their customs. This is displayed all through the letters of the First Fleet. The British officer class placed importance on their role in naming species, mapping terrain, and learning local languages and customs. They were passionate about ethnography. Artefacts from newly discovered (or captured) people sold for a fortune back in London.

This, of course, was the knowledge of empire. The British Empire didn’t succeed because of any intrinsic cultural trait in the British, but through the connections of the empire itself. Britain prevailed by bringing the right people on side. It had to. Half the world was held by a handful of British soldiers. Britain prevailed through treaties and relationships with local leaders, but always with gunships in the harbour, always muskets on display.

This made Britain rich, and the homes of wealthy were filled with Chinese porcelain and silver, Morrocan carvings, Indian tapestries, Venetian glass - loot from all over the world. British manufacturing and craftsmanship did not develop a name for itself until the 18th century, when Britain started copying the designs and production processes of other cultures.

It wasn’t anything intrinsically "British" that drove British Empire to prevail, but the British adaption of other cultural processes, and its ability to bring them into the fold of empire.

Today, the US has prevailed for the very same reason. The US is one of the most multicultural powers in the world today, and along with its military and industrial strength, its success is due to its pluralism, its cultural diversity, and its cultural networks.

As a multicultural nation in Asia, Australia’s success also relies on such adaptation. It’s not the strength or predominance of any one ethnic group that will bring prosperity to Australia, but the willingness to learn and adapt to new ways of living.
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Lionel Edriess
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Re: Abbott Claims Oz Unsettled B4 British
Reply #152 - Jul 5th, 2014 at 2:42pm
 
Stutter?  Shocked
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Re: Abbott Claims Oz Unsettled B4 British
Reply #153 - Jul 5th, 2014 at 2:45pm
 
____ wrote on Jul 4th, 2014 at 5:03pm:
Abbott under fire for unsettled call


PRIME Minister Tony Abbott has come under fire for saying Australia was unsettled before British colonisation.
MR Abbott made the comments while addressing the Melbourne Institute, saying Australia was unimaginable without foreign investment.
"I guess our country owes its existence to a form of foreign investment by the British government in the then unsettled or, um, scarcely settled, Great South Land," he said on Friday.
Labor's only indigenous parliamentarian, Senator Nova Peris, said the comments hindered efforts to have her people recognised in the constitution.
The comments were hurtful, dismissive of indigenous Australians and incorrect, she said.
Labor leader Bill Shorten said the comment was offensive, especially from a prime minister who claimed to be dedicated to indigenous affairs.
Mr Abbott's key indigenous adviser, Warren Mundine, labelled the comments silly and bizarre.


www.news.com.au/national/breaking-news/abbott-under-fire-for-unsettled-call/story-e6frfku9-1229678015022



Sparcely settled might have been a better or more correct term rather than 'unsettled' or 'scarcely settled' for Abbott to use given the Aboriginal population at 1770 in Australia is estimated at between 750,000 and 1 million, in a landmass the size of North America.
Still, it doesn't seem to take much for Abbott to set the handwringers and word police off like a frog in a sock.
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Re: Abbott Claims Oz Unsettled B4 British
Reply #154 - Jul 5th, 2014 at 2:46pm
 
DaS Energy wrote on Jul 5th, 2014 at 1:06pm:
Tony Abbott hates to admit he's British to the boot straps and his forebears were liars also, who told the British Sovereign Australia was uninhabited.

Their deceit is now fully exposed, and us born Australian are paying a price for liars like Abbott.


Actually, it was just a silly Freudian slip by Abbott, which he struggled to get out of. It wasn’t that bad.

But it does give you a hint of his influences and the people he surrounds himself with - Andrew Bolts, Gerard Hendersons, David Flynts, and the gaggle of fossilized old fruitloops that are being parachuted  into the boards and positions of influence around the country.

Yes, thank heavens the grown-ups are back in charge.
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Re: Abbott Claims Oz Unsettled B4 British
Reply #155 - Jul 5th, 2014 at 2:49pm
 
Enquiring mind wrote on Jul 5th, 2014 at 11:54am:

The British almost starved in the first two years of the colony. They certainly would have died of thirst if they weren’t shown the waterholes, which they took over.

They did a lot of experimenting with crops and various soils, and they succeeded. 200 years on, however, you’d have to question the introduction of cattle farming, irrigation for cotton and other water-intensive crops, and a whole lot of other ridiculous decisions about land useage. The CSIRO certainly has. The National Farmers Federation has too.

The British in Australia weren’t smart because they overcame Aboriginal settlement, they were stupid for not learning how to adapt more. Watkins Tench and a couple of officers tried, but it was all for nought.

We won’t fix the Murray-Darling or the Barrier Reef. Many farmers won’t get arable land again. Phosphate-heavy farming is not sustainable - we literally won’t survive with the current cash-crop supply chain we have now.

But this is history. We buggered up with slavery and the colonies too. We started again. Our survival depends on our ability to fix our messes, and learn from others. There are no single stream of British or European set of values or technologies. Wheat is Babalonian.Christianity is Palestinian. Gunpowder is Chinese.

And all those place names on the map are Aboriginal.
This country supports 25 million people with a high standard of living because of western technology, seeing that this continent was inhabited by various groups of tribes with disparate languages, no organised governmental system and the lowest technology on the planet this continent was always going to get colonised by another more technological oriented culture. Im not arguing that western culture is 100 percent perfect but I cant see any other culture which has achieved or is capable of achieving such enormous strides in the standard of living, life expectancy and basic human rights. Im not sure why you are stating the obvious that western culture has borrowed from others, of course we do. Regardless of whether we got gunpowder from the Chinese the elements involved are not unique to China, it would have been invented elsewhere at some time. Nothing in  an y human culture is unique to that particular culture.
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Re: Abbott Claims Oz Unsettled B4 British
Reply #156 - Jul 5th, 2014 at 2:50pm
 
Enquiring mind wrote on Jul 5th, 2014 at 2:46pm:
DaS Energy wrote on Jul 5th, 2014 at 1:06pm:
Tony Abbott hates to admit he's British to the boot straps and his forebears were liars also, who told the British Sovereign Australia was uninhabited.

Their deceit is now fully exposed, and us born Australian are paying a price for liars like Abbott.


Actually, it was just a silly Freudian slip by Abbott, which he struggled to get out of. It wasn’t that bad.

But it does give you a hint of his influences and the people he surrounds himself with - Andrew Bolts, Gerard Hendersons, David Flynts, and the gaggle of fossilized old fruitloops that are being parachuted  into the boards and positions of influence around the country.

Yes, thank heavens the grown-ups are back in charge.
The first 5 years the first fleet stuck to Farm Cove, Parramatta and a few other areas Karnal. I just want to know where you got the opinion that the local aboriginals showed the first fleeters  where to get water. I makes me wonder how much of your posts are actually correct.
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Re: Abbott Claims Oz Unsettled B4 British
Reply #157 - Jul 5th, 2014 at 2:51pm
 
austranger wrote on Jul 5th, 2014 at 2:16pm:
The British were Imperialists, their Terra Nullius claim was based on their observation that there was no nation, no organised people with a claim in their understanding of such claims.

Terra nullius (/ˈtɛrə nʌˈlaɪ.əs/, plural terrae nullius) is a Latin expression deriving from Roman law meaning "land belonging to no one",[1] which is used in international law to describe territory which has never been subject to the sovereignty of any state, or over which any prior sovereign has expressly or implicitly relinquished sovereignty. Sovereignty over territory which is terra nullius may be acquired through occupation,[2] though in some cases doing so would violate an international law or treaty.

Within their terms of reference at that time they were quite correct and their colonisation was thus entirely legal and justifiable at law.
You can't simply re-interpret their actions then under our concepts now and say they were thus wrong at that time, sorry.


On the 3rd June 1992 Justice Brennan, in considering the rights of the indigenous peoples of the Murray Islands, proclaimed in the High Court of Australia that "the Meriam people are entitled as against the whole world to possession, occupation, use and enjoyment of the lands of the Murray Islands". This decision overturns the concept of terra nullius. The Aboriginal people of the Murray Islands are entitled to be acknowledged as the original owners of the territory in question. With that decision the foundation upon which the Law as practised by Surveyors was severely shaken; now part of Australia at least is recognised as having been inhabited by Aboriginal peoples who have rights above all others to those lands in law.
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Re: Abbott Claims Oz Unsettled B4 British
Reply #158 - Jul 5th, 2014 at 2:52pm
 
austranger wrote on Jul 5th, 2014 at 2:16pm:
The British were Imperialists, their Terra Nullius claim was based on their observation that there was no nation, no organised people with a claim in their understanding of such claims.

Terra nullius (/ˈtɛrə nʌˈlaɪ.əs/, plural terrae nullius) is a Latin expression deriving from Roman law meaning "land belonging to no one",[1] which is used in international law to describe territory which has never been subject to the sovereignty of any state, or over which any prior sovereign has expressly or implicitly relinquished sovereignty. Sovereignty over territory which is terra nullius may be acquired through occupation,[2] though in some cases doing so would violate an international law or treaty.

Within their terms of reference at that time they were quite correct and their colonisation was thus entirely legal and justifiable at law.
You can't simply re-interpret their actions then under our concepts now and say they were thus wrong at that time, sorry.


On the 3rd June 1992 Justice Brennan, in considering the rights of the indigenous peoples of the Murray Islands, proclaimed in the High Court of Australia that "the Meriam people are entitled as against the whole world to possession, occupation, use and enjoyment of the lands of the Murray Islands". This decision overturns the concept of terra nullius. The Aboriginal people of the Murray Islands are entitled to be acknowledged as the original owners of the territory in question. With that decision the foundation upon which the Law as practised by Surveyors was severely shaken; now part of Australia at least is recognised as having been inhabited by Aboriginal peoples who have rights above all others to those lands in law.
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Re: Abbott Claims Oz Unsettled B4 British
Reply #159 - Jul 5th, 2014 at 2:52pm
 
austranger wrote on Jul 5th, 2014 at 2:16pm:
The British were Imperialists, their Terra Nullius claim was based on their observation that there was no nation, no organised people with a claim in their understanding of such claims.

Terra nullius (/ˈtɛrə nʌˈlaɪ.əs/, plural terrae nullius) is a Latin expression deriving from Roman law meaning "land belonging to no one",[1] which is used in international law to describe territory which has never been subject to the sovereignty of any state, or over which any prior sovereign has expressly or implicitly relinquished sovereignty. Sovereignty over territory which is terra nullius may be acquired through occupation,[2] though in some cases doing so would violate an international law or treaty.

Within their terms of reference at that time they were quite correct and their colonisation was thus entirely legal and justifiable at law.
You can't simply re-interpret their actions then under our concepts now and say they were thus wrong at that time, sorry.


On the 3rd June 1992 Justice Brennan, in considering the rights of the indigenous peoples of the Murray Islands, proclaimed in the High Court of Australia that "the Meriam people are entitled as against the whole world to possession, occupation, use and enjoyment of the lands of the Murray Islands". This decision overturns the concept of terra nullius. The Aboriginal people of the Murray Islands are entitled to be acknowledged as the original owners of the territory in question. With that decision the foundation upon which the Law as practised by Surveyors was severely shaken; now part of Australia at least is recognised as having been inhabited by Aboriginal peoples who have rights above all others to those lands in law.
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Re: Abbott Claims Oz Unsettled B4 British
Reply #160 - Jul 5th, 2014 at 2:52pm
 
Enquiring mind wrote on Jul 5th, 2014 at 2:36pm:
[

There is nothing intrinsically superior about "British culture", [/quote[ You better tell the rest of the western world then who seem to disagree with you by their adoption of it.

[quote]As a multicultural country in Asia, Australia’s success also relies on such adaptation.
opening the doors to incompatible cultures wont help us adapt.
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Re: Abbott Claims Oz Unsettled B4 British
Reply #161 - Jul 5th, 2014 at 2:53pm
 
austranger wrote on Jul 5th, 2014 at 2:16pm:
The British were Imperialists, their Terra Nullius claim was based on their observation that there was no nation, no organised people with a claim in their understanding of such claims.

Terra nullius (/ˈtɛrə nʌˈlaɪ.əs/, plural terrae nullius) is a Latin expression deriving from Roman law meaning "land belonging to no one",[1] which is used in international law to describe territory which has never been subject to the sovereignty of any state, or over which any prior sovereign has expressly or implicitly relinquished sovereignty. Sovereignty over territory which is terra nullius may be acquired through occupation,[2] though in some cases doing so would violate an international law or treaty.

Within their terms of reference at that time they were quite correct and their colonisation was thus entirely legal and justifiable at law.
You can't simply re-interpret their actions then under our concepts now and say they were thus wrong at that time, sorry.


On the 3rd June 1992 Justice Brennan, in considering the rights of the indigenous peoples of the Murray Islands, proclaimed in the High Court of Australia that "the Meriam people are entitled as against the whole world to possession, occupation, use and enjoyment of the lands of the Murray Islands". This decision overturns the concept of terra nullius. The Aboriginal people of the Murray Islands are entitled to be acknowledged as the original owners of the territory in question. With that decision the foundation upon which the Law as practised by Surveyors was severely shaken; now part of Australia at least is recognised as having been inhabited by Aboriginal peoples who have rights above all others to those lands in law.
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Re: Abbott Claims Oz Unsettled B4 British
Reply #162 - Jul 5th, 2014 at 3:03pm
 
Aussie wrote on Jul 4th, 2014 at 5:09pm:
Dear Tony,


We owe our existence to an invasion of an occupied Land, easy military defeat of the Natives, appalling subsequent treatment of them, and British Colonisation.

Yours faithfully,

Aussie.



Good post.

No reasonable person could argue with that.


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Re: Abbott Claims Oz Unsettled B4 British
Reply #163 - Jul 5th, 2014 at 3:07pm
 
Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jul 5th, 2014 at 7:14am:
Tony Abbott stated yesterday Australia "unsettled' before Brits. Aborigines were only here 59,946 years before you.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BrsG7XSCMAAtRat.jpg

I love this map... Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
Some areas have a whole family in them... Cheesy
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Re: Abbott Claims Oz Unsettled B4 British
Reply #164 - Jul 5th, 2014 at 3:08pm
 
You could all easily turn the television off, lock the fridge up and turn your back on the comfortable life this "invasion" has given you all.
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