Datalife wrote on Jun 5^th, 2014 at 1:23pm:



And what do you choose Christianity as?

Datalife wrote on Jun 5^th, 2014 at 2:58pm:



The 'secural' is a Christian idea. There is no 'secular' in Islam.

Its reflexive in the west because its true.

Muslims in Australia overwhelmingly belong to 2 or 3 non-white racial groups and are identified in these racial terms - not in terms of their beliefs. And at under 3% of the population they are a minority.

Datalife wrote on Jun 5^th, 2014 at 2:58pm:



Do you feel threatened?

freediver wrote on Jun 6^th, 2014 at 9:35am:


Actually, the Enlightenment arose as a critique of Christian beliefs. It has extended throughout the entire world, including Muslim countries.

And liberal secular values have had a great deal of opposition from Christian, Hindu and Muslim quarters. Opposition to secular values is hardly secular.

Better tell Y about the secular West though. He thinks Israel belongs to his very own version of Gud - a god that is only accessible if you follow Y's specific directions.

Spooky, no?

freediver wrote on Jun 6^th, 2014 at 2:01pm:


The only majority Hindu and Muslim nation states arose in the 20th century, long after the Enlightenment and its subsequent European revolutions in the mid 19th century.

In Latin Europe, the church got its payback in Spain and Italy under Franco and Mussolini. The protestant countries were different. There, the state (or crown) leads the church. In England, the Queen is the official head of the Church of England. Some Western European states have similar deals with their Lutheran equivalents.

India and the majority Muslim states were established by the European powers using their own constitutional models. With the exception of the Arab monarchies (granted their own tribal political models by Mother to keep them in the fold) and post-Revolution Iran, these countries follow the British or French parliamentary and legal systems.

All states have religious parties - India has been ruled in recent years by the BJP, a Hindu-renaissance party. Religion is a big political magnet in post-colonial societies. However, most countries have kept their secular political models intact. Leaders, whether they're generals or career politicians, must pay constant homage to religious groups to stay in power.

People I've talked to in India understand this process. They simply call it "politics" - the standard response to most religious conflict in India. There is, of course, no organised movement to end secular government in India, as there is in Pakistan - unless you include Maoist rebels.

Does this help to answer your question?

freediver wrote on Jun 6^th, 2014 at 3:57pm:


I'm confused, FD - is there an answer you'd like me to say? You tell me what you want to read and I'll cut and paste it.