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intellectual fascism (Read 9990 times)
True Colours
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Re: intellectual fascism
Reply #60 - May 16th, 2014 at 10:23pm
 
hazy123 wrote on May 16th, 2014 at 9:06pm:
For christians, not a thing in this world.


Really? Because that is not how the Bible reads, or how it was understood at the Spanish Inquisition. What would Joseph Kony do with an apostate?

Quote:
"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death.

Deuteronomy 13:6-9





Quote:
  "And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, .....and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die."

Deuteronomy 17:3-5




Quote:
"All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman."

2 Chronicles 15:13




Quote:
Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the way of the  Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.  I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished (the Day of judgement). 

Matthew 5:17-18



Jesus taught that even the person who curses his parents must be put to death:

Quote:
Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' "

Matthew 15:3-4



Even Paul the inventor of Christianity says that apostates deserve death:

Quote:
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles...They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator...those who do such things deserve death

Romans 1:20-32
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« Last Edit: May 16th, 2014 at 10:36pm by True Colours »  
 
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Karnal
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Re: intellectual fascism
Reply #61 - May 16th, 2014 at 10:52pm
 
Put him to death, was it?

That’s a relief. I thought the Bible might have let these apostates off the hook.

Praise Gud.
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Mattywisk
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Re: intellectual fascism
Reply #62 - May 16th, 2014 at 10:55pm
 
Times are hard when you need to quote the old testament and cherry pick the new testament out of context to try and prove your point. Either that or you really don't understand scripture and the covenants they were written in and what they meant.


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Mattywisk
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Re: intellectual fascism
Reply #63 - May 16th, 2014 at 11:02pm
 
Does the Quran really contain dozens of verses promoting violence?

The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule.  Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding.  Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.

Unlike nearly all of the Old Testament verses of violence, the verses of violence in the Quran are mostly open-ended, meaning that they are not restrained by the historical context of the surrounding text.  They are part of the eternal, unchanging word of Allah, and just as relevant or subjective as anything else in the Quran. 

The context of violent passages is more ambiguous than might be expected of a perfect book from a loving God, however this can work both ways.  Most of today's Muslims exercise a personal choice to interpret their holy book's call to arms according to their own moral preconceptions about justifiable violence.  Apologists cater to their preferences with tenuous arguments that gloss over historical fact and generally do not stand up to scrutiny.  Still, it is important to note that the problem is not bad people, but bad ideology.

Unfortunately, there are very few verses of tolerance and peace to abrogate or even balance out the many that call for nonbelievers to be fought and subdued until they either accept humiliation, convert to Islam, or are killed.  Muhammad's own martial legacy - and that of his companions - along with the remarkable stress on violence found in the Quran have produced a trail of blood and tears across world history.

The Quran:
Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful.   And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone.  But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"  The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries.  In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did).  The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is thus disingenuous (the actual Muslim words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse).  The actual Arabic comes from "fitna" which can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation.  Taken as a whole, the context makes clear that violence is being authorized until "religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.

Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."  Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time.  From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".  This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').

Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."  The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, led meekly to the slaughter.  These Muslims are killed in battle, as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah.  Here is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers.

Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-"  This passage criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, letting them know that they are less worthy in Allah's eyes.  It also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Quran, but rather a spiritual struggle.  Not only is the Arabic word used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption.  (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad and this is reflected in other translations of the verse).

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Karnal
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Re: intellectual fascism
Reply #64 - May 16th, 2014 at 11:03pm
 
Mattywisk wrote on May 16th, 2014 at 10:55pm:
Times are hard when you need to quote the old testament and cherry pick the new testament out of context to try and prove your point. Either that or you really don't understand scripture and the covenants they were written in and what they meant.



Says a scholar on Muslim hermeneutics.
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Mattywisk
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Re: intellectual fascism
Reply #65 - May 16th, 2014 at 11:06pm
 
Karnal wrote on May 16th, 2014 at 11:03pm:
Mattywisk wrote on May 16th, 2014 at 10:55pm:
Times are hard when you need to quote the old testament and cherry pick the new testament out of context to try and prove your point. Either that or you really don't understand scripture and the covenants they were written in and what they meant.



Says a scholar on Muslim hermeneutics.


ROFL coming from you.
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Frances
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Re: intellectual fascism
Reply #66 - May 16th, 2014 at 11:10pm
 
Mattywisk wrote on May 16th, 2014 at 10:55pm:
Times are hard when you need to quote the old testament and cherry pick the new testament out of context to try and prove your point. Either that or you really don't understand scripture and the covenants they were written in and what they meant.




And quoted out of context as well....
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Sure God created man before woman. But then you always make a rough draft before the final masterpiece.
 
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Re: intellectual fascism
Reply #67 - May 17th, 2014 at 3:19am
 
Carnal, the defector, thinks Australia is a Jewish country. Can someone inform her?. By the way, are any real muslims willing to tell us the punishment for the crime of apostasy?
l
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Re: intellectual fascism
Reply #68 - May 17th, 2014 at 7:49am
 
TC what do you think is the correct Islamic punishment for apostasy?
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Re: intellectual fascism
Reply #69 - May 17th, 2014 at 10:22am
 
freediver wrote on May 17th, 2014 at 7:49am:
TC what do you think is the correct Islamic punishment for apostasy?



From what ive read its pretty clear

DEATH  Embarrassed
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ian
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Re: intellectual fascism
Reply #70 - May 17th, 2014 at 10:37am
 
stryder wrote on May 17th, 2014 at 10:22am:
freediver wrote on May 17th, 2014 at 7:49am:
TC what do you think is the correct Islamic punishment for apostasy?



From what ive read its pretty clear

DEATH  Embarrassed

are you sure?

every year 6 million Muslims convert to Christianity
http://catholicismpure.wordpress.com/2013/03/06/jesus-instead-of-jihad-every-year-six-million-muslims-convert-to-christianity/

are 6 million former Muslims being killed every year for converting to Christianity? can you provide a link for this?
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stryder
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Re: intellectual fascism
Reply #71 - May 17th, 2014 at 10:43am
 
ian wrote on May 17th, 2014 at 10:37am:
stryder wrote on May 17th, 2014 at 10:22am:
freediver wrote on May 17th, 2014 at 7:49am:
TC what do you think is the correct Islamic punishment for apostasy?



From what ive read its pretty clear

DEATH  Embarrassed

are you sure?

every year 6 million Muslims convert to Christianity
http://catholicismpure.wordpress.com/2013/03/06/jesus-instead-of-jihad-every-year-six-million-muslims-convert-to-christianity/

are 6 million former Muslims being killed every year for converting to Christianity? can you provide a link for this?



So your saying that death is not a punishment for apostasy in islam, find me a link that contradicts that punishment of death is whats given to muslims who leave islam


And one thing ian, i never said millions were killed through this, i just responded to freediver question on what islamic law and the koran dictates on dealing with apostates of islam.
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ian
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Re: intellectual fascism
Reply #72 - May 17th, 2014 at 10:53am
 
stryder wrote on May 17th, 2014 at 10:43am:
ian wrote on May 17th, 2014 at 10:37am:
stryder wrote on May 17th, 2014 at 10:22am:
freediver wrote on May 17th, 2014 at 7:49am:
TC what do you think is the correct Islamic punishment for apostasy?



From what ive read its pretty clear

DEATH  Embarrassed

are you sure?

every year 6 million Muslims convert to Christianity
http://catholicismpure.wordpress.com/2013/03/06/jesus-instead-of-jihad-every-year-six-million-muslims-convert-to-christianity/

are 6 million former Muslims being killed every year for converting to Christianity? can you provide a link for this?



So your saying that death is not a punishment for apostasy in islam, find me a link that contradicts that punishment of death is whats given to muslims who leave islam


And one thing ian, i never said millions were killed through this, i just responded to freediver question on what islamic law and the koran dictates on dealing with apostates of islam.

i just did show you a link that contradicts it, 6 million converts last year , none punished by death.
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ian
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Re: intellectual fascism
Reply #73 - May 17th, 2014 at 10:54am
 
stryder wrote on May 17th, 2014 at 10:43am:
[

And one thing ian, i never said millions were killed through this, i just responded to freediver question on what islamic law and the koran dictates on dealing with apostates of islam.

No, you didnt. Thats not the question which FD asked.
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ian
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Re: intellectual fascism
Reply #74 - May 17th, 2014 at 10:54am
 
Now answer this, whats the correct Judaic punishment for a disrespectful son?
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