Australian Politics Forum - Gallipoli disaster not Britain's fault ....

Lord Herbert Gold Member Offline Posts: 34441 Gender:	Re: Gallipoli disaster not Britain's fault .... Reply #90 - Apr 27^th, 2014 at 8:47am bummer
Back to top	IP Logged

Lord Herbert

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 34441
Gender: male

Re: Gallipoli disaster not Britain's fault ....
Reply #91 - Apr 27^th, 2014 at 8:47am

Bobby. wrote on Apr 27^th, 2014 at 8:41am:

Thanks Lord Herbert.

If I was a general in command I would not lead my men into battle unless
I was sure they could win.

This surety could only be assured if the Turkish defenses were removed first.

The unfortunate difference between the British command and the Australian command was that the British could buy their commissions as officers if they had an Oxford accent, while the Aussie command was determined by meritocracy only.

OldCrusty has been making some good points though. He tripped over his walking-stick with regard to commandos not being suited for the Gallipoli campaign, but otherwise he's been making a lot of good sense. To err is human .... Let's not throw OldCrusty out with the bath water.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Apr 27^th, 2014 at 8:52am by Lord Herbert »

IP Logged

Bobby.

Gold Member

Online

Australian Politics

Posts: 120455
Melbourne
Gender: male

Re: Gallipoli disaster not Britain's fault ....
Reply #92 - Apr 27^th, 2014 at 8:53am

Lord Herbert wrote on Apr 27^th, 2014 at 8:47am:

Bobby. wrote on Apr 27^th, 2014 at 8:41am:

Thanks Lord Herbert.

If I was a general in command I would not lead my men into battle unless
I was sure they could win.

This surety could only be assured if the Turkish defenses were removed first.

The unfortunate difference between the British command and the Australian command was that the British could buy their commissions as officers if they had an Oxford accent, while the Aussie command was determined by meritocracy only.

OldCrusty has been making some good points though.

That's why the British commanders need to be disinterred & their skeletons whipped
just as the Catholic Inquisition did.

Back to top

IP Logged

Grappler Racist Filth

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 90350
Proud Old White Australian Man
Gender: male

Re: Gallipoli disaster not Britain's fault ....
Reply #93 - Apr 27^th, 2014 at 11:44am

Sparky wrote on Apr 26^th, 2014 at 7:59pm:

OldnCrusty wrote on Apr 26^th, 2014 at 7:41pm:

Bobby. wrote on Apr 26^th, 2014 at 8:17am:

Yes - the only way to land in Gallipoli was to send in commandos
been called off.

There were no such thing as commandos in 1914 in concept or fact, so that was going to happen.

You have to remember we are talking 100 years ago and the British Army was not a professional homogeneous force that meets that description today.

The British Army was a far flung organisation that was more a collection of individual regiments with very different traditions and standards and very little experience nor organisation at any level to work in large divisional, corp and army level operations.

And that description and realization to true for the BEF in 1914-15 as it does for the Gallipoli force.

The British fought Boer commandos during the Boer War. The concept was well known in 1914.

Yes - but not in its present concept of small bodies of men operating to inflict as much damage as possible etc.

Boer commandos were irregular call-outs of the 'home guard' and ranged the veldt. Commandos as evolved in WW II are/were essentially light infantry intended to move fast, hit and run.

A better approximation to the Boer commando is an Afghani muj.

Back to top

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

IP Logged

Grappler Racist Filth

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 90350
Proud Old White Australian Man
Gender: male

Re: Gallipoli disaster not Britain's fault ....
Reply #94 - Apr 27^th, 2014 at 11:56am

Bobby. wrote on Apr 27^th, 2014 at 8:53am:

Lord Herbert wrote on Apr 27^th, 2014 at 8:47am:

Bobby. wrote on Apr 27^th, 2014 at 8:41am:

Thanks Lord Herbert.

If I was a general in command I would not lead my men into battle unless
I was sure they could win.

This surety could only be assured if the Turkish defenses were removed first.

The unfortunate difference between the British command and the Australian command was that the British could buy their commissions as officers if they had an Oxford accent, while the Aussie command was determined by meritocracy only.

OldCrusty has been making some good points though.

That's why the British commanders need to be disinterred & their skeletons whipped
just as the Catholic Inquisition did.

Australia had the highest rate of officer risen through the ranks. That attitude persists to this day in some way in the Army - officers are the product of a training in military history and academic method - sergeants are the product of experience, and a wise young officer heeds his/her sergeant's advice.

Back to top

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

IP Logged

OldnCrusty

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 855
Gender: male

Re: Gallipoli disaster not Britain's fault ....
Reply #95 - Apr 27^th, 2014 at 5:17pm

Lord Herbert wrote on Apr 27^th, 2014 at 8:25am:

OldnCrusty wrote on Apr 26^th, 2014 at 9:25pm:

The Anzac's had a Pom in command,

A quick reminder: The Australian government had voted to let the Australian soldiers be under the command of the British. It was entirely at the discretion of the Australian government that the soldiers were not under Australian command.

In military parlance 'under command' or 'in command of' means the commanding formations has total responsibility for the unit under it's command.

Australians have not been put under command of a foreign power since the Boer War. We have been allies and our troops have been 'in support' but have always remained under command of the Australian Govt.

You can thank Breaker Morant and his two colleagues for this. Breaker and colleagues were Australian soldiers, raised and trained in Australia and paid by Australia but put under British command in South Africa.

There was an event which resulted in the Australians been charged with murder and courtmarshalled by the British, under British military law with British officers presiding. There were found guilty and shot. The only Australian soldiers ever shot by firing squad for a military offence.

Breaker and his mates claimed they were 'following orders' and the Australian Govt and people believed them. But the Australian govt could nothing legally to stop the execution because legally they had been put under command of the British and were the British legal responsibility.

And the Australian Govt and people went 'never again'. And so it has been.

And, Gen Birdwood was appointed by the Australian Govt and could only be removed from command by the Australian Govt. A British officer, born in Britain, trained by Britain but an Australian soldier.

Back to top

IP Logged

Cofgod

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 693
Bolton, Great Britain
Gender: male

Re: Gallipoli disaster not Britain's fault ....
Reply #96 - May 1^st, 2014 at 4:03am

red baron wrote on Apr 25^th, 2014 at 5:57pm:

Sounds like a British op, like the Battle of Rorke's Drift where the Supply Officer didn't want to release ammunition without the correct form being filled out.

Forget about the fact that 6,000 Zulus were avalanching towards the few hundred defenders of Rorke's Drift in the Battle of Ishwandala.

What rubbish.

I bet you also think those fighting the Zulus were Welsh and sang Men of Harlech during the battle.

Back to top

IP Logged

NorthOfNorth

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 17258
Gender: male

Re: Gallipoli disaster not Britain's fault ....
Reply #97 - May 1^st, 2014 at 7:03am

No doubt Hellenes argued about the details or the 'truth' of their mythical Heroes, gods and demigods too!

The ANZAC legend is a myth, (a 'noble lie', to be bluntly Platonic), with the whole truth being incidental.

That's what myths are made of... And this myth has it all... A kernel (Colonel?) of truth, with an amalgam of fantasy, idealism, nostalgia and a glorified sense of national self at an (almost magical and totally unpredictable) right measure to create the vast edifice that is 'The ANZAC' and, by that, us.

But such a national myth, so forged, is a sacred and rare gift... To be nurtured, as it Heroes, unlike 'we who are left grow old', themselves grow ever greater, more sacred and ever immortal.

England has many such myths... Elizabeth I (Gloriana) for instance, whose supposedly most famous speech that defined her greatness and immortalised English resolve against the Spanish, was written and attributed to her after her death... Does that matter to the legend of her reign? Of course not!

Great myths are forged in Heaven, by gods, as consolations to mortals!

Back to top

Conviction is the art of being certain

IP Logged

Cofgod

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 693
Bolton, Great Britain
Gender: male

Re: Gallipoli disaster not Britain's fault ....
Reply #98 - May 1^st, 2014 at 10:00pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 1^st, 2014 at 7:03am:

England has many such myths... Elizabeth I (Gloriana) for instance, whose supposedly most famous speech that defined her greatness and immortalised English resolve against the Spanish, was written and attributed to her after her death... Does that matter to the legend of her reign? Of course not!

Erm, Elizabeth DID actually say that speech. She made the speech on 9th August 1588 to English troops at Tilbury, in Essex, on the North Bank of the Thames, as they were readying to repel an attempted invasion by the Spanish Armada.

Prior to the speech the Armada had been driven from the Strait of Dover in the Battle of Gravelines eleven days earlier, and had by now rounded Scotland on its way home, but troops were still held at ready in case the Spanish army of Alexander Farnese, the Duke of Parma, might yet attempt to invade from Dunkirk (which was then under Spanish rule but would eventually come under English rule); two days later they were discharged. On the day of the speech, the Queen left her bodyguard before the fort at Tilbury and went among her subjects with an escort of six men. Lord Ormonde walked ahead with the Sword of State; he was followed by a page leading the Queen's charger and another bearing her silver helmet on a cushion; then came the Queen herself, in white with a silver cuirass and mounted on a grey gelding. She was flanked on horseback by her Lieutenant General the Earl of Leicester on the right, and on the left by the Earl of Essex, her Master of the Horse. Sir John Norreys brought up the rear.

The Speech

My loving people

We have been persuaded by some that are careful of our safety, to take heed how we commit our selves to armed multitudes, for fear of treachery; but I assure you I do not desire to live to distrust my faithful and loving people. Let tyrants fear. I have always so behaved myself that, under God, I have placed my chiefest strength and safeguard in the loyal hearts and good-will of my subjects; and therefore I am come amongst you, as you see, at this time, not for my recreation and disport, but being resolved, in the midst and heat of the battle, to live and die amongst you all; to lay down for my God, and for my kingdom, and my people, my honour and my blood, even in the dust.

I know I have the body of a weak, feeble woman; but I have the heart and stomach of a king, and of a king of England too, and think foul scorn that Parma or Spain, or any prince of Europe, should dare to invade the borders of my realm; to which rather than any dishonour shall grow by me, I myself will take up arms, I myself will be your general, judge, and rewarder of every one of your virtues in the field.

I know already, for your forwardness you have deserved rewards and crowns; and We do assure you on a word of a prince, they shall be duly paid. In the mean time, my lieutenant general shall be in my stead, than whom never prince commanded a more noble or worthy subject; not doubting but by your obedience to my general, by your concord in the camp, and your valour in the field, we shall shortly have a famous victory over these enemies of my God, of my kingdom, and of my people.

Back to top

« Last Edit: May 1^st, 2014 at 10:08pm by Cofgod »

IP Logged

NorthOfNorth

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 17258
Gender: male

Re: Gallipoli disaster not Britain's fault ....
Reply #99 - May 1^st, 2014 at 10:27pm

Cofgod wrote on May 1^st, 2014 at 10:00pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 1^st, 2014 at 7:03am:

England has many such myths... Elizabeth I (Gloriana) for instance, whose supposedly most famous speech that defined her greatness and immortalised English resolve against the Spanish, was written and attributed to her after her death... Does that matter to the legend of her reign? Of course not!

Erm, Elizabeth DID actually say that speech. She made the speech on 9th August 1588 to English troops at Tilbury, in Essex, on the North Bank of the Thames, as they were readying to repel an attempted invasion by the Spanish Armada.

And you know that because?

She may have made a speech at Tilbury, in Essex, on the North Bank of the Thames but what did she actually say?

The text of the speech was found in a letter from Leonel Sharp sometime after 1624 to the duke of Buckingham.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speech_to_the_Troops_at_Tilbury

That's the thing about myths - A kernel of truth, with an amalgam of fantasy, idealism, nostalgia and a glorified sense of national self at an (almost magical and totally unpredictable) right measure... Great circumstance helps, of course.

Back to top

Conviction is the art of being certain

IP Logged

NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Gallipoli disaster not Britain's fault .... Reply #100 - May 3^rd, 2014 at 1:03pm To be resumed (with enthusiasm, no doubt) on 25 April 2015... The Centenary Commemoration.
Back to top	Conviction is the art of being certain IP Logged

OldnCrusty

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 855
Gender: male

Re: Gallipoli disaster not Britain's fault ....
Reply #101 - May 3^rd, 2014 at 1:53pm

Lord Herbert wrote on Apr 25^th, 2014 at 4:44pm:

This is answered by the female professor in this short video. Australia's own politicians made the decision to leave it up to the British to command the Aussie troops.

To be clear and exact, she said that the Britsh HIGH command was responsible for the (strategic) deployment of Australian forces. IOW if they all stay in Palestine or if they all get deployed to France or if they all go home.

The Australian govt, acting through Gen Birdwood (an Australian officers seconded from the British Army) was responsible for the operational command of the AIF. Gen Birdwood had the right, obligation and responsibility to say yea or nay to the deployment of the AIF. Which is one of her (mild) criticisms of the Australian officer corp of not standing up to Hiag as the Canadian Gen Currie did.

Lord Herbert wrote on Apr 25^th, 2014 at 4:44pm:

Don't believe for a moment that you should sit humbly at the feet of so-called 'professional historians'. A great many of them are deceitful academic egotists with a barrow to push and an agenda to run.

I agree. It is sad that we can't rely on academia to be as objective in their science and their studies as they pretend to be. And there are many reasons for this but dirty crass money is normally at the base of the lack of objectivity.

Back to top

IP Logged

OldnCrusty

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 855
Gender: male

Re: Gallipoli disaster not Britain's fault ....
Reply #102 - May 3^rd, 2014 at 1:54pm

Lord Herbert wrote on Apr 25^th, 2014 at 4:44pm:

This is answered by the female professor in this short video. Australia's own politicians made the decision to leave it up to the British to command the Aussie troops.

To be clear and exact, she said that the Britsh HIGH command was responsible for the (strategic) deployment of Australian forces. IOW if they all stay in Palestine or if they all get deployed to France or if they all go home.

The Australian govt, acting through Gen Birdwood (an Australian officers seconded from the British Army) was responsible for the operational command of the AIF. Gen Birdwood had the right, obligation and responsibility to say yea or nay to the deployment of the AIF. Which is one of her (mild) criticisms of the Australian officer corp of not standing up to Hiag as the Canadian Gen Currie did.

Lord Herbert wrote on Apr 25^th, 2014 at 4:44pm:

Don't believe for a moment that you should sit humbly at the feet of so-called 'professional historians'. A great many of them are deceitful academic egotists with a barrow to push and an agenda to run.

I agree. It is sad that we can't rely on academia to be as objective in their science and their studies as they pretend to be. And there are many reasons for this but dirty crass money is normally at the base of the lack of objectivity.

Back to top

IP Logged

OldnCrusty

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 855
Gender: male

Re: Gallipoli disaster not Britain's fault ....
Reply #103 - May 3^rd, 2014 at 1:57pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 1^st, 2014 at 7:03am:

No doubt Hellenes argued about the details or the 'truth' of their mythical Heroes, gods and demigods too!

The ANZAC legend is a myth, (a 'noble lie', to be bluntly Platonic), with the whole truth being incidental.

That's what myths are made of... And this myth has it all... A kernel (Colonel?) of truth, with an amalgam of fantasy, idealism, nostalgia and a glorified sense of national self at an (almost magical and totally unpredictable) right measure to create the vast edifice that is 'The ANZAC' and, by that, us.

But such a national myth, so forged, is a sacred and rare gift... To be nurtured, as it Heroes, unlike 'we who are left grow old', themselves grow ever greater, more sacred and ever immortal.

England has many such myths... Elizabeth I (Gloriana) for instance, whose supposedly most famous speech that defined her greatness and immortalised English resolve against the Spanish, was written and attributed to her after her death... Does that matter to the legend of her reign? Of course not!

Great myths are forged in Heaven, by gods, as consolations to mortals!

That outburst begs the question; what do you think the myth is?

Back to top

IP Logged

Grappler Racist Filth Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 90350 Proud Old White Australian Man Gender:	Re: Gallipoli disaster not Britain's fault .... Reply #104 - May 3^rd, 2014 at 2:10pm I, for one, tend to be more moved by the senseless sacrifice of so many.
Back to top	“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.” ― John Adams IP Logged