Australian Politics Forum - local Muslim celebrates ANZAC day

freediver

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Re: local Muslim celebrates ANZAC day
Reply #90 - May 3^rd, 2014 at 1:24pm

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No, and its completely irrelevant. Neither side had a democracy, so there was no democracy to protect. Got it yet??

You seemed to think it was relevant before. Was France a democracy? How about the USA, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Newfoundland, South Africa etc?

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I'm insulting them by pointing out the bleeding obvious - that their invasion of a sovereign nation on the other side of the world that had nothing to do with Australia was not protecting our democracy and freedom. Tell you what FD, cite me a single original ANZAC who claimed the Gallipoli invasion was all about democracy and freedom and then we can talk about who is calling who deluded.

You made this claim originally. Now you want me to prove it?

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Evidently your only argument here is that a German victory would have further eroded democracy in Germany.

They would have destroyed democracy in France and Britain also, most likely through direct occupation. In WWII, the threat was more global and imminent, however the loss of major democracies so early in the history of democracy was bad new for every new democracy.

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Of course - and occupying France and Britain and dismantling their government - as opposed to respecting their sovereignty and establishing trade relations with them - will give you sooooooo much prosperity eh?

That was the model until recently in human history. Prussia did not develop trade relations with it's neighbours through the Franco-Prussian war. It swallowed them and built the German Empire.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Melanias purse Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 101383	Re: local Muslim celebrates ANZAC day Reply #91 - May 3^rd, 2014 at 1:35pm South Africa? Ah, you’ve been listening to Andrei again. Carry on.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: local Muslim celebrates ANZAC day
Reply #92 - May 3^rd, 2014 at 1:46pm

freediver wrote on May 3^rd, 2014 at 1:24pm:

You seemed to think it was relevant before.

No I didn't. I was pointing out the absurdity that it was freedom and democracy on one side and big bad evil autocracy on the other. The reality, which I was pointing out, is that both sides had a little of both. But there were definitely no true democracies anywhere.

freediver wrote on May 3^rd, 2014 at 1:24pm:

You made this claim originally. Now you want me to prove it?

I said *IF* there are any ANZACs who believed they were fighting for freedom and democracy then they are deluded. Its not a criticism, and most certainly not an insult - deluding yourself that you are putting your life in danger for something noble is a perfectly reasonable and understandable reaction. And yet, it doesn't seem there were any ANZACs who took on that delusion. You obviously want to take on this delusion - because you clearly can't handle the truth of the west's imperialistic and aggressive values - but don't insult the intelligence of our ANZACs by airbrushing their well documented disdain and scepticism for what we were fighting for during WWI.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Melanias purse

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Re: local Muslim celebrates ANZAC day
Reply #93 - May 3^rd, 2014 at 3:27pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 3^rd, 2014 at 1:46pm:

I said *IF* there are any ANZACs who believed they were fighting for freedom and democracy then they are deluded. Its not a criticism, and most certainly not an insult - deluding yourself that you are putting your life in danger for something noble is a perfectly reasonable and understandable reaction. And yet, it doesn't seem there were any ANZACs who took on that delusion. You obviously want to take on this delusion - because you clearly can't handle the truth of the west's imperialistic and aggressive values - but don't insult the intelligence of our ANZACs by airbrushing their well documented disdain and scepticism for what we were fighting for during WWI.

Diggers thought they were exporting demokracy to Turkey? Now that’s a thought.

The ANZACs were fighting for the Empire. The term "democracy" back then was never used. Empire-builders preferred the term, "civilisation".

The ANZACs fought for British hegemony, and nothing more. They fought under a British flag for Mother.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: local Muslim celebrates ANZAC day
Reply #94 - May 3^rd, 2014 at 3:33pm

Melanias purse wrote on May 3^rd, 2014 at 3:27pm:

Diggers thought they were exporting demokracy to Turkey? Now that’s a thought.

Either that or they thought invading the sovereign borders of someone on the other side of the world who posed no threat to Australia was somehow defending Australia's freedom and demokracy.

Not even the war memorial or any other ANZAC institutions mention anything about freedom and democracy when they talk about the Gallipoli campaign.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Mattywisk

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Re: local Muslim celebrates ANZAC day
Reply #95 - May 3^rd, 2014 at 3:56pm

I have no problems with our boys following orders. My problem is with Winstoned Churchill and his ludicrous plan which killed so many of our young men and in some cases forced them to go to their deaths. As I understand it too they were forced to run over the trenches knowing full well they would be mowed down by machine gun fire. So to the military leaders that were party to that shame shame shame on you murderers. Gallipolli had nothing to do with us at all.

The ANZACS Kudo's to them for following orders and being great men with good intentions. The instigators can go rot in hell.

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Sparky

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Re: local Muslim celebrates ANZAC day
Reply #96 - May 3^rd, 2014 at 4:12pm

Melanias purse wrote on May 3^rd, 2014 at 3:27pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 3^rd, 2014 at 1:46pm:

I said *IF* there are any ANZACs who believed they were fighting for freedom and democracy then they are deluded. Its not a criticism, and most certainly not an insult - deluding yourself that you are putting your life in danger for something noble is a perfectly reasonable and understandable reaction. And yet, it doesn't seem there were any ANZACs who took on that delusion. You obviously want to take on this delusion - because you clearly can't handle the truth of the west's imperialistic and aggressive values - but don't insult the intelligence of our ANZACs by airbrushing their well documented disdain and scepticism for what we were fighting for during WWI.

Diggers thought they were exporting demokracy to Turkey? Now that’s a thought.

The ANZACs were fighting for the Empire. The term "democracy" back then was never used. Empire-builders preferred the term, "civilisation".

The ANZACs fought for British hegemony, and nothing more. They fought under a British flag for Mother.

They didn't want Turkey Karnal. They were trying to capture the Dardanelles so they could use the waterway to combine their army with the Russian Army and reinforce the eastern front against the Germans. Wrong again it seems. Plenty of muslims have fought for empires. The Ottomans are a prime example.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: local Muslim celebrates ANZAC day Reply #97 - May 3^rd, 2014 at 4:35pm Mattywisk wrote on May 3^rd, 2014 at 3:56pm: Gallipolli had nothing to do with us at all. shh Matty - don't burst FD's bubble! Sparky wrote on May 3^rd, 2014 at 4:12pm: Plenty of muslims have fought for empires. Indeed - about a million of them for the British Empire.
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Sparky

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Re: local Muslim celebrates ANZAC day
Reply #98 - May 3^rd, 2014 at 4:37pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 3^rd, 2014 at 4:35pm:

Mattywisk wrote on May 3^rd, 2014 at 3:56pm:

Gallipolli had nothing to do with us at all.

shh Matty - don't burst FD's bubble!

Sparky wrote on May 3^rd, 2014 at 4:12pm:

Plenty of muslims have fought for empires.

Indeed - about a million of them for the British Empire.

The Ottomans were a multi million man empire that invaded other people /religions lands for centuries. The Moors, Persians are another 2 examples.

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freediver

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Re: local Muslim celebrates ANZAC day
Reply #99 - May 3^rd, 2014 at 6:31pm

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No I didn't. I was pointing out the absurdity that it was freedom and democracy on one side and big bad evil autocracy on the other.

It was. This claim was built on your deliberately deceptive line about the German Empire having universal male suffrage. I thought you had given that up for a reason.

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The reality, which I was pointing out, is that both sides had a little of both.

We had Russia on our side. They helped defend democracy too, ironically enough. We also had France, Britain, USA, Canada, Newfoundland, South Africa, Australia and New Zealand. All of these countries - including Britain - were more democratic. They were also all on a path towards liberalisation and greater democracy. The German empire was heading in the opposite direction. The Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman Empires were already there.

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But there were definitely no true democracies anywhere.

Is this your alternative argument to the German Empire being "arguably more democratic" than Britain?

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I said *IF* there are any ANZACs who believed they were fighting for freedom and democracy then they are deluded.

This is what I quoted in the opening post:

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Or I should clarify - many people may have died thinking they were protecting our freedom, but they were as deluded as you are. The reality is, every man and woman who has died fighting in Australia's wars died in the name of protecting either British or American economic hegemony.

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Its not a criticism, and most certainly not an insult

Calling someone deluded is not an insult?

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You obviously want to take on this delusion - because you clearly can't handle the truth of the west's imperialistic and aggressive values

The truth is that by fighting in both World Wars, our soldiers were defending the nascent democracies of the new world order. They were defending democracy. I never said it was black and white, or the only issue at stake was democracy. Yet the reality is that the new democracies of the world were on our side, and a loss by the allies in either world war would have meant a significant if not complete loss of democracy.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Adamant Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1893 Brisbane Gender:	Re: local Muslim celebrates ANZAC day Reply #100 - May 3^rd, 2014 at 7:10pm I suggest people read Liddell Hart's history of the First World war so that they may gain an insight into it. This is before they carry on.
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Melanias purse

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Re: local Muslim celebrates ANZAC day
Reply #101 - May 3^rd, 2014 at 7:58pm

freediver wrote on May 3^rd, 2014 at 6:31pm:

Quote:

No I didn't. I was pointing out the absurdity that it was freedom and democracy on one side and big bad evil autocracy on the other.

It was. This claim was built on your deliberately deceptive line about the German Empire having universal male suffrage. I thought you had given that up for a reason.

Quote:

The reality, which I was pointing out, is that both sides had a little of both.

We had Russia on our side. They helped defend democracy too, ironically enough. We also had France, Britain, USA, Canada, Newfoundland, South Africa, Australia and New Zealand. All of these countries - including Britain - were more democratic. They were also all on a path towards liberalisation and greater democracy. The German empire was heading in the opposite direction. The Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman Empires were already there.

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But there were definitely no true democracies anywhere.

Is this your alternative argument to the German Empire being "arguably more democratic" than Britain?

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I said *IF* there are any ANZACs who believed they were fighting for freedom and democracy then they are deluded.

This is what I quoted in the opening post:

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Or I should clarify - many people may have died thinking they were protecting our freedom, but they were as deluded as you are. The reality is, every man and woman who has died fighting in Australia's wars died in the name of protecting either British or American economic hegemony.

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Its not a criticism, and most certainly not an insult

Calling someone deluded is not an insult?

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You obviously want to take on this delusion - because you clearly can't handle the truth of the west's imperialistic and aggressive values

The truth is that by fighting in both World Wars, our soldiers were defending the nascent democracies of the new world order. They were defending democracy. I never said it was black and white, or the only issue at stake was democracy.

That’s good, because it wasn’t an issue at stake for anyone other than Amerika. The only one who pretended it was, was Woodrow Wilson, who in 1917 used the idea of demokracy to get Congress to approve US entry into the war: "to make the world safe for democracy".

Cynical? Idealistic? Cunning?

All.

Amerika is good that way. It has the best, and worst, aspects of humanity. In Amerika, tyranny and demokracy are two sides of the same coin.

Australians would never sprout such tosh as Woodrow Wilson and his would-be heir, George W Bush. We all cringed when Bush wanted to export Freeedom.and demokracy to Iraq.

Well, most of us did. Some are under the unfathomable illusion that we actually did so.

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« Last Edit: May 3^rd, 2014 at 8:04pm by Melanias purse »

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freediver

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Re: local Muslim celebrates ANZAC day
Reply #102 - May 3^rd, 2014 at 8:05pm

Was he right though? Did they make the world safe for Democracy? Does this Mr Wilson even exist? Gandalf needs proof. He was only joking about people deluding themselves into thinking they were defending democracy. The truth is, they hadn't even noticed it existed back then. They would say things like, you can like our lives, but you will never take our economic hegemony!

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: local Muslim celebrates ANZAC day
Reply #103 - May 3^rd, 2014 at 8:25pm

freediver wrote on May 3^rd, 2014 at 6:31pm:

South Africa... more democratic.

Cue riotous laughter.

freediver wrote on May 3^rd, 2014 at 6:31pm:

Calling someone deluded is not an insult?

No - but as I said, I don't believe any of the original ANZACs held this delusion. Whats insulting is to put words into the mouths of those ANZACs and airbrush out of history their very well documented cynicism and contempt for the obvious imperialistic nature of the war.

Have you found a single account by an ANZAC extolling the glorious democratic justifications for their invasion of Turkey yet?

freediver wrote on May 3^rd, 2014 at 6:31pm:

The truth is that by fighting in both World Wars, our soldiers were defending the nascent democracies of the new world order.

Well if it makes you sleep better at night...

Of course "defending nascent democracies of the new world order" evidently involved a significant ramping up of mass slaughter of resistors to occupation and independent nationalists in places like China and India. Or in Australia - this 'nascent' democracy just happened to coincide with the introduction of the racist WAP - and the inevitable discrimination and persecution of the existing non-whites, as well as a particularly insidious and cruel policy of cultural genocide against the Aborigines - the victims of which would come to be known as The Stolen Generation.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Melanias purse

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Re: local Muslim celebrates ANZAC day
Reply #104 - May 3^rd, 2014 at 9:28pm

freediver wrote on May 3^rd, 2014 at 8:05pm:

Was he right though? Did they make the world safe for Democracy? Does this Mr Wilson even exist? Gandalf needs proof. He was only joking about people deluding themselves into thinking they were defending democracy. The truth is, they hadn't even noticed it existed back then. They would say things like, you can like our lives, but you will never take our economic hegemony!

Wilson was a good guy, for all the good he did - could do. Did he make the world safe for demokracy? Oh, FD...

You seem to have forgotten the entire 20th century.

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