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Many of the allied countries had universal suffrage. Britain was heading that way. Germany was heading in the opposite direction. It was building a facade of democracy. This is quite obvious and transparent, yet here you are trotting out the facade as evidence, as if you are some ignorant 19th century German hick who does know what happens to his ballot after he casts it.

Do you agree that by fighting in WWI, the allies were protecting democracy?

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Would you mind quoting what I actually posted? I think you'll find it captures the reality of the situation very well. In contrast your claim about Germany having universal male suffrage appears designed to mislead. Was this deliberate, or borne of ignorance?

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Yes they did. And the Kaiser wiped his arse with most of the votes. Were you aware of this when you made the claim? Was your intention to mislead people about the nature of democracy in the German Empire? I am not disagreeing with you, so there is no need to repeat yourself. I am just asking you whether you intended to deceive by taking advantage of people's tendency to equate universal suffrage with other democratic concepts like 'one man, one vote'.

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2014 at 8:20pm:


There was no democracy to protect, so I don't know what you are going on about.

Britain entered WWI to stand up for 19th century liberal values - ie maintenance of the status quo vis-a-vis the independence of the existing states, and upholding the rule of law. The catalyst here was the invasion of Belgium, though obviously the roots of the issue go back a lot further back.

Germany was not a democracy, Britain was not a democracy, and Russia (fighting with the allies) were the least democractic of all. Neither side entered the war in order to defend or attack democracy, and nor was the defense of it a necessary side-effect of the commencement of hostilities. In fact every side was guilty of winding back any democratic institutions that existed in their respective country once the fighting started - as would be expected.

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2014 at 8:20pm:


My my, someone certainly has a bee in their bonnet about this.

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What is it with muslims and this nonsense?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Empire

The German Empire (German: Deutsches Reich or Deutsches Kaiserreich) was the historical German nation state[6] that existed from the unification of Germany in 1871 to the defeat in World War 1 in 1918
The German Empire consisted of 27 constituent territories (most of them ruled by royal families).

Although authoritarian in many respects, the empire had some democratic features. Besides universal suffrage, it permitted the development of political parties. Bismarck's intention was to create a constitutional façade which would mask the continuation of authoritarian policies. In the process, he created a system with a serious flaw. There was a significant disparity between the Prussian and German electoral systems. Prussia used a highly restrictive three-class voting system in which the richest third of the population could choose 85% of the legislature, all but assuring a conservative majority. As mentioned above, the king and (with two exceptions) the prime minister of Prussia were also the emperor and chancellor of the empire – meaning that the same rulers had to seek majorities from legislatures elected from completely different franchises. As mentioned above, rural areas were grossly overrepresented from the 1890s onward.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_democracy

The United Kingdom
    1807: The U.K. Slave Trade Act banned the trade across the British Empire after which the Royal Navy began to combat foreign slave traders.
    1832: The passing of the Reform Act, which gave representation to previously under represented urban areas and extended the franchise to a wider population.
    1833: The U.K. passed the Slavery Abolition Act.
1848: Universal male suffrage was definitely established in France in March of that year, in the wake of the French Revolution of 1848.[91]
1848: Following the French, the Revolutions of 1848, although in many instances forcefully put down, did result in democratic constitutions in some other European countries among them Denmark and Netherlands.
1850s: introduction of the secret ballot in Australia; 1872 in UK; 1892 in USA
1853: Black Africans given the vote for the first time in Southern Africa, in the British-administered Cape Province.
1870: USA – 15th Amendment to the Constitution, prohibits voting rights discrimination on the basis of race, color, or previous condition of slavery.
1879 and 1880: William Ewart Gladstone's UK Midlothian campaign ushered in the modern political campaign.
1893: New Zealand is the first nation to introduce universal suffrage by awarding the vote to women (universal male suffrage had been in place since 1879).

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You are having trouble answering the question here Gandalf. I will repeat it for you. Hopefully by now you are realising that I chose the words carefully.

Do you agree that by fighting in WWI, the allies were protecting democracy?

What do you think the outcome would have been for democracy in Europe if the Germans had won?

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Do you agree that the way you and TC described the German Empire, and continue to describe it, is likely to mislead? Was this deliberate, or borne of ignorance?

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Soren wrote on Apr 30^th, 2014 at 9:10pm:


And here’s the dirty old Hun pretending to make a contribution.

Bitter old boy Kaiser posts. So insightful, so sincere and honest.

I blame the Muselman. Ever tried their cheese?

Deplorable.

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2014 at 9:35pm:


Apparently responding with things like " Neither side entered the war in order to defend or attack democracy, and nor was the defense of it a necessary side-effect of the commencement of hostilities" and "there was no democracy to protect" wasn't quite clear enough. So let me phrase it another way...

NO

Apparently also, this riveting debate about the democratic institutions of Britain and Germany prior to WWI proves the case that Australia fought each and every one of its wars to protect Australia's freedom and democracy. FD will happilly argue (obfuscate?) for another 100 pages about how the Kaiser rubbed his arse with his people's votes - and somehow believe its relevant to why Australians sailed to the other side of the world to invade Turkey - or why we joined an attack on a local liberation/independence movement in Vietnam half a century later for that matter.

Absolutely anything to sustain the fairy tale that Australia would never ever have joined a military cause that wasn't all about nobly protecting our democracy and freedoms - and to demonise anyone who suggests we did as vile, freedom-hating muslims.

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What I said was, we fought on the side of freedom and democracy. I also think our democracy would have been at great risk if the other major democracies had fallen. They had not been around very long and the march of freedom and democracy may have gone into reverse.

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It is relevant because it highlights your efforts to deliberately misrepresent the nayture of democracy in the German Empire.

Going back to this claim you and the other Muslim keep making:

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 29^th, 2014 at 7:06pm:


It was only 'arguably' more democratic if you set out to deliberately mislead people about the nature of democracy in the German Empire. In reality, the following allies (at the least) were far more democratic than the German empire:

France
Britain
United States
South Africa
Canada
Australia New Zealand

Furthermore, all of these countries were on a clear path towards greater democratic rights, whereas the Kaiser was busy dismantling the remnants of democratic institutions inherited from the French. Germany's main ally, the Austro-Hungarian Empire, was still a traditional monarchy and had not benefited from the French revolution.

Trying to spin this as anything but being on the side of democracy is blatant misrepresentation.

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Of course we were fighting for democracy. Germany winning WWI would have destroyed democracy in Europe. By fighting in WWI, Australia and our allies were protecting democracy. What I was not claiming, and never have, was that this was our sole reason for entering WWI. Wars are always messy affairs, yet we have consistently fought on the side of democracy, and our actions have helped to protect democracy.

What do you think the outcome would have been for democracy in Europe if the Germans had won?

Do you agree that the way you and TC described the German Empire, and continue to describe it, is likely to mislead? Was this deliberate, or borne of ignorance?