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local Muslim celebrates ANZAC day (Read 10349 times)

polite_gandalf

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Re: local Muslim celebrates ANZAC day
Reply #30 - Apr 29^th, 2014 at 4:17pm

freediver wrote on Apr 29^th, 2014 at 12:50pm:

That's because no-one would be stupid enough to suggest they are deluded for thinking they were defending our freedoms. There only seems to be a need to discuss issues like freedom when Muslims are around.

Australian soldiers did not fight for our freedoms - and if any veteran actually believes that (and I'm guessing not many do), then they are deluded. I'm sorry if the truth hurts.

Here's another muslim spewing his anti-freedom, anti-anzac vitriol... oh wait, its an Aussie veterans group:

Quote:

"You do not honor the dead through mindless flag waving, rewriting history or promoting new wars," said Hamish Chitts, East Timor veteran and spokesperson for Stand Fast -- a group of veterans and former military personnel who oppose the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

"ANZAC Day has become a nationalist circus with little real reflection on why governments sent soldiers, sailors and airmen to their deaths. All we get is glib cliches and a perverse 'cult of sacrifice' where we're told that it doesn't matter why you are sent to war, whether your government lied to you or not, the greatest thing an ordinary Australian can do is die in a war.

"A classic example can be seen on the streets of Brisbane. The RSL have put up banners and ads on buses saying, "420,127 Queenslanders have courageously fought for our freedom since 1915." This is absolutely ridiculous and an outright lie! How did the insane slaughter of World War 1 gain freedom? The overwhelming majority of those poor souls that ended up fighting in those trenches that did come back knew it was a war only benefiting the rich and something that should never happen again.

"Which war gained women the right to vote? Which war gained the 8 hour work day? Which war gave people the right to hold public demonstrations? There isn't one, our freedom has always been fought and won by the people, civilians, standing up to their own government!

'The myth that if Australian troops fight they are automatically fighting for our freedom needs to be busted because it lets warmongering politicians off the hook when they slaughter our youth!

http://indymedia.org.au/2012/04/25/veterans-group-condemns-hollow-remembrance-on...

The original ANZACs, when they returned Europe after 1918, had nothing but disdain for their British overlords who used them as cannon fodder in the name of imperialism. As Bill Gammage famously retorted, while the ANZACs were getting slaughtered at the Nek, the British were on the beach sipping tea. Jingoistic chest beating for King and Empire couldn't have been further from their minds. For them, and for an entire generation of Australians, the 'Anzac spirit' was the rebellious larikin anti-establishment mateship they developed in the trenches, immortalised by CEW Bean. It was really a continuation of Paterson and Lawson's 'Bush Legend' - part myth yes, but still an element of truth. I strongly recommend reading or watching the play The One Day of the Year - to see the disconnect between the sombre and cynical generation of original ANZACs, and the chest beaters of later generations

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: local Muslim celebrates ANZAC day
Reply #31 - Apr 29^th, 2014 at 6:42pm

So all the soldiers are deluded, except the ones who agree with you?

We would have lost democracy and freedoms if the the Germans had won either WWI or WWII. Just because we did not gain democracy and freedom through these wars does not mean we were not genuinely protecting it in these wars. Freedom and democracy are not won once, and then you never have to worry about it again. With the Nazis, this falls into the bleeding obvious category. In WWI, as I have already pointed out, the German leadership was busy winding back democracy and freedom, and whatever society they created out of land they might have won in the war would have been even less democratic.

I sincerely hope you were merely ignorant in describing pre-WWI Germany as having universal male suffrage, and that you couldn't really tell the difference between them and the allies.

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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True Colours

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Re: local Muslim celebrates ANZAC day
Reply #32 - Apr 29^th, 2014 at 7:01pm

The truth is that Australian soldiers were sent to die in Gallipoli so that Jews could invade Palestine.

In 1914, Britain needed Jewish money and US support to fight Germany. Wealthy banking Jews like the Rothschild family agreed to finance Britain's war in exchange for Britain invading Palestine on behalf of the Jews.

The only war Australia has ever fought in its own self-interest was against Japan in WWII - when Labor PM John Curtin ordered Australian troops to defend Australia against Japan instead of fighting a European war. Even this war against Japan may not have eventuated if Australia had not been blindly following Britain's orders in the late 1930's and early 1940's. The interesting thing about the people who signed up for this war against Japan is that they were not the usual young red-neck country hicks who signed up but, rather, a lot of them were city men in their 30's like my own grandfather.

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freediver

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Re: local Muslim celebrates ANZAC day
Reply #33 - Apr 29^th, 2014 at 7:05pm

Quote:

The truth is that Australian soldiers were sent to die in Gallipoli so that Jews could invade Palestine.

Always nice to have Muslims letting us know what our troops really died for.

Quote:

The only war Australia has ever fought in its own self-interest was against Japan in WWII - when Labor PM John Curtin ordered Australian troops to defend Australia against Japan instead of fighting a European war. Even this war against Japan may not have eventuated if Australia had not been blindly following Britain's orders in the late 1930's and early 1940's.

Are you suggesting we caused Japan to go on the offensive? WWII was our fault?

Quote:

The interesting thing about the people who signed up for this war against Japan is that they were not the usual young red-neck country hicks who signed up but, rather, a lot of them were city men in their 30's like my own grandfather.

So this is what makes them the only 'non-deluded' soldiers?

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: local Muslim celebrates ANZAC day
Reply #34 - Apr 29^th, 2014 at 7:06pm

freediver wrote on Apr 29^th, 2014 at 6:42pm:

So all the soldiers are deluded, except the ones who agree with you?

What do you expect me to say? You know the opinion I have here, am I supposed to say I don't believe our soldiers fought for our freedom, but the vets who say we did are right too?

Besides, as I keep saying I don't believe its a widely held view. I challenge you to find a single original ANZAC who believed he fought for our freedom - or Vietnam or Afghanistan or Iraqi vet. Of course WWII is more understandable, and I grant that comes much closer to fighting for "freedom" - though I still maintain it was about imperial hegemony.

freediver wrote on Apr 29^th, 2014 at 6:42pm:

We would have lost democracy and freedoms if the the Germans had won either WWI or WWII.

Laughable. They are on the other side of the world and had no capacity to threaten Australia - even if they wanted to.

freediver wrote on Apr 29^th, 2014 at 6:42pm:

In WWI, as I have already pointed out, the German leadership was busy winding back democracy and freedom

So were the British - and Australians for that matter. This tends to happen during wars. The reality was that pre-war Germany was arguably more democratic than Britain.

freediver wrote on Apr 29^th, 2014 at 6:42pm:

I sincerely hope you were merely ignorant in describing pre-WWI Germany as having universal male suffrage

The German Empire (until 1918) (and the North German Confederation before it) had had universal male suffrage since 1867/71, which then has been one of the most progressive election laws.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_suffrage

LOL?

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Yadda

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Re: local Muslim celebrates ANZAC day
Reply #35 - Apr 29^th, 2014 at 7:35pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 29^th, 2014 at 4:17pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 29^th, 2014 at 12:50pm:

Australian soldiers did not fight for our freedoms

- and if any veteran actually believes that (and I'm guessing not many do), then they are deluded. I'm sorry if the truth hurts.

Sure moslems who live in Australia, respect what ANZAC DAY represents! Tongue

True Colours wrote on Aug 18th, 2013 at 9:27pm:
Air is halal, so stop breathing it.

Freedom is UN-ISLAMIC, and all moslems [who are resident within Western hemisphere nations] are hypocrites, by pretending to embrace our freedoms. K9.29

n.b.
We can often see examples around us, of how moslems are exploiting the freedoms that have been gifted to them, by our culture, in how moslems refuse to share those freedoms with other family members, who still see themselves as still 'pressed', under their ISLAMIC cultural control.

It has been exposed many, many, times, that within moslem families [or a moslem group], LIVING HERE IN AUSTRALIA, an ISLAMIC tyranny and bondage is still imposed upon all of the members of the family or a moslem group!

"Freedom, GO TO HELL!"

Do you as a bona fide Australian, really believe that the moslems [who by definition, are all ISLAMISTS] who are resident within Western hemisphere nations have really embraced those freedoms, that were earned by our forefathers [often with their blood!] and gifted to us ?

IMAGE.....

"Freedom of expression GO TO HELL!"
"Disbelievers must not be permitted to scrutinise or criticise ISLAM!"

n.b.
THE MESSAGE OF THE IMAGE ABOVE - Is that to the moslem psyche, the Jihad against the enemies of Allah's religion, is never considered to be an immoral, or a hypocritical, or an ungrateful act.

+++

Does the moslem living in Australia truly respect AND EMBRACE the freedoms that have been gifted to him, and does he understand and respect the need to keep defending those freedoms ???

Quote:

"[a respected moslem community spokesman has] called on Australian Muslims to spurn secular democracy and Western notions of moderate Islam...
...[moslems in Australia were told] that democracy is "haram" (forbidden) for Muslims, whose political engagement should be be based purely on Islamic law.
"We must adhere to Islam and Islam alone," Mr Hanif [said]"

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/07/australia-members-of-hizb-ut-tahrir-say-countr...

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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freediver

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Re: local Muslim celebrates ANZAC day
Reply #36 - Apr 29^th, 2014 at 7:59pm

Quote:

What do you expect me to say? You know the opinion I have here, am I supposed to say I don't believe our soldiers fought for our freedom, but the vets who say we did are right too?

I expect you to suck it up and be objective. You let me down, every time.

Quote:

Of course WWII is more understandable, and I grant that comes much closer to fighting for "freedom" - though I still maintain it was about imperial hegemony.

Can you elaborate on 'imperial hegemony'? Is this the 'non-imperial' type of imperialism? Where some vague and elusive force is pulling all the strings and we are just pretending?

Quote:

Laughable. They are on the other side of the world and had no capacity to threaten Australia - even if they wanted to.

So the British could colonise Australia in the 1700s, but the tyranny of distance would have been too great for 1950s victorious Germany?

Even if the threat was not direct, there were plenty of indirect, but equally dire threats. With all our allies defeated, it is highly likely that we would have ended up part of the Japanese empire, German empire, Italian empire, any new empire that sprung up to take the 'leftovers', or even an internal reactionary threat. It's a big world, and we would have been one of the few remaining liberal democracies, with few sympathetic ears.

Quote:

So were the British - and Australians for that matter. This tends to happen during wars.

Before the war Gandalf. They did not merely suspend some institutions in the immediate cause of fighting a war, but had a long history going in the opposite direction to us. While Australia and our allies were setting impressive new standards for freedom and democracy, the German leadership was systematically winding them back.

Quote:

The reality was that pre-war Germany was arguably more democratic than Britain.

Quote:

The German Empire (until 1918) (and the North German Confederation before it) had had universal male suffrage since 1867/71, which then has been one of the most progressive election laws.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_suffrage

LOL?

LOL indeed. I posted the same information for you on the Islam board yesterday. You obviously didn't read very far.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Empire

The German Empire (German: Deutsches Reich or Deutsches Kaiserreich) was the historical German nation state[6] that existed from the unification of Germany in 1871 to the defeat in World War 1 in 1918
The German Empire consisted of 27 constituent territories (most of them ruled by royal families).

Although authoritarian in many respects, the empire had some democratic features. Besides universal suffrage, it permitted the development of political parties. Bismarck's intention was to create a constitutional façade which would mask the continuation of authoritarian policies. In the process, he created a system with a serious flaw. There was a significant disparity between the Prussian and German electoral systems. Prussia used a highly restrictive three-class voting system in which the richest third of the population could choose 85% of the legislature, all but assuring a conservative majority. As mentioned above, the king and (with two exceptions) the prime minister of Prussia were also the emperor and chancellor of the empire – meaning that the same rulers had to seek majorities from legislatures elected from completely different franchises. As mentioned above, rural areas were grossly overrepresented from the 1890s onward.

In contrast, the milestones of some of our allies:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_democracy

The United Kingdom
1807: The U.K. Slave Trade Act banned the trade across the British Empire after which the Royal Navy began to combat foreign slave traders.
1832: The passing of the Reform Act, which gave representation to previously under represented urban areas and extended the franchise to a wider population.
1833: The U.K. passed the Slavery Abolition Act.
1848: Universal male suffrage was definitely established in France in March of that year, in the wake of the French Revolution of 1848.[91]
1848: Following the French, the Revolutions of 1848, although in many instances forcefully put down, did result in democratic constitutions in some other European countries among them Denmark and Netherlands.
1850s: introduction of the secret ballot in Australia; 1872 in UK; 1892 in USA
1853: Black Africans given the vote for the first time in Southern Africa, in the British-administered Cape Province.
1870: USA – 15th Amendment to the Constitution, prohibits voting rights discrimination on the basis of race, color, or previous condition of slavery.
1879 and 1880: William Ewart Gladstone's UK Midlothian campaign ushered in the modern political campaign.
1893: New Zealand is the first nation to introduce universal suffrage by awarding the vote to women (universal male suffrage had been in place since 1879).

Now, try sucking it up and being objective - how you you really think democracy would have fared in a Europe run by the German Empire or the Nazis?

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: local Muslim celebrates ANZAC day Reply #37 - Apr 29^th, 2014 at 8:16pm freediver wrote on Apr 29^th, 2014 at 7:59pm: LOL indeed. I posted the same information for you on the Islam board yesterday. You obviously didn't read very far. You just posted an article that confirmed again that Germany had universal male suffrage. LOL indeed.
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

polite_gandalf

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Re: local Muslim celebrates ANZAC day
Reply #38 - Apr 29^th, 2014 at 8:39pm

freediver wrote on Apr 29^th, 2014 at 7:59pm:

Even if the threat was not direct, there were plenty of indirect, but equally dire threats. With all our allies defeated, it is highly likely that we would have ended up part of the Japanese empire, German empire, Italian empire, any new empire that sprung up to take the 'leftovers', or even an internal reactionary threat. It's a big world, and we would have been one of the few remaining liberal democracies, with few sympathetic ears.

On planet earth, the absolute very best any of the axis powers could have hoped for was to reach agreeable terms with the existing world economic hegemons - ie Britain and the US. And by that I mean being recognised as equal economic players that could participate on equal terms in the Anglo-dominated economic markets. And in fact there's fairly little disagreement amongst historians that this was all they wanted - even after launching unjustified attacks against the anglo-powers. Again, read AJP Taylor for more details. For example Hitler was genuinely surprised that Britain didn't come to the bargaining table after Hitler overran France. To him, defeating France (and the British expeditionary force sent to defend France) was just a necessary thing to do to get Britain to listen to Germany's grievances about not getting a fair stake on the global markets. Arguably the same thing happened during WWI.

Thats not to say for one moment that Germany or Japan were justified in their attacks - they were egregious acts of aggression - the "supreme crime", as Chief Justice Jackson described it at Nuremburg, from which all other crimes - including genocide - spawn from. So absolutely it was a good thing that they were defeated, but it doesn't change the fact that in defeating them, Britain and the US were defending their hegemonic position on the world markets.

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: local Muslim celebrates ANZAC day
Reply #39 - Apr 29^th, 2014 at 9:01pm

Quote:

You just posted an article that confirmed again that Germany had universal male suffrage.

Did you intend to mislead people when you described it that way, or was it merely an accident borne of you ignorance of 'democracy' in the pre WWI German Empire?

Quote:

On planet earth, the absolute very best any of the axis powers could have hoped for was to reach agreeable terms with the existing world economic hegemons - ie Britain and the US.

Crap. Wars change things. They can bring down empires. They can build new ones. The best they could hope for was to win the war and dictate the outcome themselves.

Quote:

And in fact there's fairly little disagreement amongst historians that this was all they wanted - even after launching unjustified attacks against the anglo-powers.

Find me a historian who thinks a victorious Germany would have demanded nothing but equality.

Quote:

So absolutely it was a good thing that they were defeated, but it doesn't change the fact that in defeating them, Britain and the US were defending their hegemonic position on the world markets.

Were they defending freedom and democracy?

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: local Muslim celebrates ANZAC day
Reply #40 - Apr 29^th, 2014 at 9:49pm

freediver wrote on Apr 29^th, 2014 at 9:01pm:

Crap. Wars change things. They can bring down empires. They can build new ones. The best they could hope for was to win the war and dictate the outcome themselves.

I think you're confusing "win the war" to mean physically overrunning the western powers and completely dismantling the world order that existed at the time - or something to that effect.

The reality was that Germany and Japan - and even Italy, lashed out because they wanted to participate in the existing world order as equals - not dismantle it.

Even Germany's attempt to prepare an invasion of Britain was half-hearted and was arguably just another "raising of the stakes" by Hitler to get Britain's attention. Certainly his preference was to cooperate with Britain rather than to conquer her.

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: local Muslim celebrates ANZAC day
Reply #41 - Apr 29^th, 2014 at 10:15pm

Quote:

I think you're confusing "win the war" to mean physically overrunning the western powers and completely dismantling the world order that existed at the time - or something to that effect.

When the allies defeated Germany in WWI, they replaced Bismarck's faux-democracy with a real one. They did the same after WWII. What do you think the Germans would have done? They were already an empire cobbled together of disparate groups. They may have taken a lot. They may have taken a little and set up client states in the rest. Bottom line is, it would have been very bad news for democracy in Eruope.

Quote:

The reality was that Germany and Japan - and even Italy, lashed out because they wanted to participate in the existing world order as equals - not dismantle it.

Crap. Germany was an old style empire with a democratic facade and wanted an even bigger old style empire with a bigger facade. You made the appeal to authority. Now go and find me a credible historian who believes Germany would have established some kind of equality between existing European states. Or admit you are full of crap.

Quote:

Even Germany's attempt to prepare an invasion of Britain was half-hearted and was arguably just another "raising of the stakes" by Hitler to get Britain's attention.

Yes. Someone who kills all those people as a half hearted attention getting exercise has nothing but good intentions and can be trusted to reshape European geopolitics.

Quote:

Certainly his preference was to cooperate with Britain rather than to conquer her.

So Germany was the man, seeking relations with a female Britain? And he wanted to be gentle, but Britain forced him to play rough?

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: local Muslim celebrates ANZAC day
Reply #42 - Apr 30^th, 2014 at 12:06am

freediver wrote on Apr 29^th, 2014 at 10:15pm:

Dear me, now why would I try and prove something I never claimed?

See if you can understand the difference:
a) making the powers that be recognise - by force if necessary - that you are a serious player and have a right to participate on the world markets equally and fairly with the big guns
b) conquer the world - then 'establish some kind of equality between existing European states' - presumably just out of the goodness of your heart.

The two are very different - one is my claim, the other is not. Can you guess which is which?

If you've worked it out, then we can talk about the Treaty of Versailles and forcefully shutting down German industry and keeping them out of global markets. Whats interesting about all this is for a brief period things were looking up - the Dawes Plan, Kellog-Briand Pact, and the west almost looked like they were going to welcome Germany into the fold. Then Wall St happened, and US cooperation and investment suddenly evaporated. Germany languished in the depression, while the west ramped up their demand for reparations. Germany responded by voting in Hitler - and the rest as they say is history.

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: local Muslim celebrates ANZAC day
Reply #43 - Apr 30^th, 2014 at 7:25pm

Quote:

If you've worked it out, then we can talk about the Treaty of Versailles

Is this relevant to what Germany would have done, had they won WWI?

What do you think the outcome would have been for democracy in Europe if they had won? Or is this getting too off topic for you?

Do you agree that by fighting in WWI, the allies were protecting democracy? You appeared to be trying to disagree with this with your spin about Germany having universal male suffrage. Were you just throwing in a red herring for the fun of it? Perhaps you have been reading some of Bismarck's old propaganda?

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: local Muslim celebrates ANZAC day
Reply #44 - Apr 30^th, 2014 at 7:54pm

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2014 at 7:25pm:

Do you agree that by fighting in WWI, the allies were protecting democracy?

One third of men in Britain had no right to vote and neither did 100% of the women. By my calculation that means a majority of the population could not vote. Are we going to spin this as a democracy? I'm not.

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2014 at 7:25pm:

You appeared to be trying to disagree with this with your spin about Germany having universal male suffrage.

I was disagreeing with your simplistic nonsense that the war was a black and white case of the forces of democracy vs the forces of anti-democracy.

And yeah, Germany had universal male suffrage - deal with it.

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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