Australian Politics Forum - local Muslim celebrates ANZAC day

freediver

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Re: local Muslim celebrates ANZAC day
Reply #135 - May 7^th, 2014 at 12:45pm

Karnal, can you string your rant together into some kind of cohesive theory? You appear to select a bunch of random and relatively insignificant historical events and draw a line through them and insist that your line is the driving force behind global geopolitics. It isn't. It is just another deluded hippy version of a narrow selection of historical events.

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It takes the most monstrous vanity to ignore the tyrannies imposed on the developed world by the West in the last half century alone.

Who is suggesting we ignore it?

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These causes of these shocks were complicated, but they were the inevitable result of neoliberal economic policies.

Crap. They were the same macroeconomic cycles that have been going on for centuries.

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During the 1990s, populations around the world responded to neoliberalism and globalization, in what some have described as "culture wars". Australia saw the rise of Pauline Hanson. Similar sentiments arose in other places, interpreted through the prisms of their own culture. As a reaction, the new global order saw the rise of Islamicism, neoconservatism, fundamentalism.

Great. Hansonism is to blame for terrorism. They don't hate our freedoms, they hate our redheads.

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The game only tolerates Freeedom in very small doses, and for a tiny minority of players.

And yet the majority of countries now have some degree of democracy because of it, and that number continues to grow. You are a hopeless cynic who simply rejects most of reality until he is left with enough negativity for his cultural self flagellation.

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Melanias purse

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Re: local Muslim celebrates ANZAC day
Reply #136 - May 7^th, 2014 at 4:20pm

freediver wrote on May 7^th, 2014 at 12:45pm:

Karnal, can you string your rant together into some kind of cohesive theory?

FD, I do hope you're not trying to thwart my Freeedom of expression. It's one of our most valuable Freeedoms, remember.

Here's the theory:

Klein, N (2007. The Shock Doctrine: the Rise of Disaster Capitalism. Knopf Canada.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shock_Doctrine

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Who is suggesting we ignore it?

Oh, Fd...

freediver wrote on May 5^th, 2014 at 9:11pm:

The example of Iran, and of past historical experiments with democracy that failed, should inform you of the fragility of this new world order and the reality of the poor prognosis it would have had if we had lost either world war.

This is something we can and should feel proud of. It is not something we should decry as a delusion on the part of our soldiers. It is not something we should pretend to ignore while trying to characterise our influence on the world by the counter-examples you can think of. To do so undermines the march of democracy by making it easier for counter-democratic forces to shape public perception of democracy and undermine our confidence in the cultural imperialism that should take place.

You're right in one sense though. The Iranian revolution and the rise of the Ayotollahs never would have happened without the US undermining the march of demokracy through their support of the Shah.

The untold part of the Iranian story is the CIA's repression of student/leftist groups during the revolution.

Hard to believe, but back in 1979, the US were far more supportive of Ayotollahs than Marxists. Who knows? Without the Iran Hostage Crisis, they might even have become friends.

Such "counter-examples" are hardly abberations. They are the rule. I would have thought exposing this rule is integral to the march of demokracy.

Cultural imperialism? That's the spirit. You'll be quoting Kipling with old boy before long. White Man's Burden, eh?

Marvellous stuff.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: local Muslim celebrates ANZAC day Reply #137 - May 7^th, 2014 at 4:48pm freediver wrote on May 5^th, 2014 at 9:11pm: our confidence in the cultural imperialism that should take place. Oh good grief Quote: This is not to say we should ignore the failures and horror stories.
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

Melanias purse

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Re: local Muslim celebrates ANZAC day
Reply #138 - May 7^th, 2014 at 5:05pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 7^th, 2014 at 4:48pm:

freediver wrote on May 5^th, 2014 at 9:11pm:

our confidence in the cultural imperialism that should take place.

Oh good grief

Now now, I'm sure FD means good cultural imperialism. You know, Fox News and re-runs of Braveheart. A nice bit of soft power to counterbalance the Shahs and Suhartos the US installed in the march to demokracy.

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freediver

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Re: local Muslim celebrates ANZAC day
Reply #139 - May 7^th, 2014 at 5:54pm

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Here's the theory:

Klein, N (2007. The Shock Doctrine: the Rise of Disaster Capitalism. Knopf Canada.

Sounds like she is giving a new name to the oldest trick in the book. Linking it to electric shock therapy is a nice touch, if a little hysterical.

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Such "counter-examples" are hardly abberations. They are the rule.

You have only produced one example where this has lead to the destruction of democracy - an example where the original creation of the democracy is also attributable to western influence. I have given you examples of 79 democracies and 37 hybrid regimes, all historically recent and all tracing their origins to the recent rise of democracy in western Europe. The overwhelming trend has been for the spread of democracy. Would it help you comprehend this if I listed them one by one and asked you how each new democracy fits in with your shock therapy theory?

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Cultural imperialism? That's the spirit. You'll be quoting Kipling with old boy before long. White Man's Burden, eh?

Do you have a problem with spreading freedom and democracy? I'm not talking about meat pies and speedos here.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: local Muslim celebrates ANZAC day
Reply #140 - May 7^th, 2014 at 7:25pm

freediver wrote on May 7^th, 2014 at 5:54pm:

You have only produced one example where this has lead to the destruction of democracy

Guatemala, Chile and Iran were direct overthrows of democratically elected governments and replacing them with autocracies. You could also arguably include Indonesia, since at the time Sukarno was overthrown (helped by CIA covert operations), he was in the process of implementing his "Guided Democracy" program. But you also have to look at attempted overthrows of democracies, and the instability and destruction (not to mention undermining of democracy) that came with that. Nicuragua is probably the worst example here - where the terrorist contras were supported in their 10 year campaign of terror against the democratic Sandista government. Also Venezuela.

But the most important category here is the supporting of brutal dictators and the direct effect it had on stifling democratic movements: Indonesia, Pakistan, all the Gulf States, pretty much all of North Africa - but especially Egypt, Iraq, most of South America and lets not forget South Africa (the US was the last western power to abandon their support for the apartheid regime, which had the immediate effect of causing their downfall). Every one of these cases had functional democratic opposition movements that could have been supported, but instead were crushed with direct US support. Barely any corner of the globe didn't feel the impact of this "assistance".

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: local Muslim celebrates ANZAC day
Reply #141 - May 7^th, 2014 at 7:38pm

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Guatemala, Chile and Iran were direct overthrows of democratically elected governments and replacing them with autocracies.

Chile is currently ranked in the 7's - pretty high by South American standards. Only Brazil matches it I think. That is on the high side of "flawed democracy", equal with France. Guatemala looks like it is ranked in the 5's - the high side of "hybrid systems". Both of these nations owe their democratic institutions to western influence. You ignore the dominant trend here - a textbook case of selecting the evidence to suit your skewed viewpoint.

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You could also arguably include Indonesia

Indonesia is a democracy today because of western influence.

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since at the time Sukarno was overthrown (helped by CIA covert operations), he was in the process of implementing his "Guided Democracy" program

In other words, moving away from the real democracy that had been set up by the UN.

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Melanias purse

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Re: local Muslim celebrates ANZAC day
Reply #142 - May 7^th, 2014 at 7:48pm

freediver wrote on May 7^th, 2014 at 5:54pm:

Do you have a problem with spreading freedom and democracy? I'm not talking about meat pies and speedos here.

I most certainly do. It is, as you say, the oldest trick in the book. And as the old boy says, it simply can’t be done.

Demokracy, you see, has to grow from the roots up. Don’t like Klein?

Read the founder of conservatism, Edmund Burke.

Sorry, FD -

Google: Edmund Burke.

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« Last Edit: May 7^th, 2014 at 7:54pm by Melanias purse »

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Soren

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Re: local Muslim celebrates ANZAC day
Reply #143 - May 7^th, 2014 at 8:02pm

Melanias purse wrote on May 6^th, 2014 at 9:42pm:

It’s a lesson in geopolitics. Iran has more oil than Saudi Arabia, but sanctions mean its people die from the most simple health problems, due to the lack of medicine.

Iran should, or could, be one of the wealthiest countries in the world.

So why are they acting like bunch of loonies?
Who is making them buggers who undermine their own good fortunes?

(Because there always has to be some sinister outside forces in this Fvckauldian world. Nobody and no country is a fvckwit unaided.
Isn't it, PB?)

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Melanias purse

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Re: local Muslim celebrates ANZAC day
Reply #144 - May 7^th, 2014 at 8:12pm

freediver wrote on May 7^th, 2014 at 5:54pm:

You have only produced one example where this has lead to the destruction of democracy - an example where the original creation of the democracy is also attributable to western influence. I have given you examples of 79 democracies and 37 hybrid regimes, all historically recent and all tracing their origins to the recent rise of democracy in western Europe. .

Yes, but you haven’t actually read your Wikipedia link, now have you?

Hint: have a look at what it says on the Arab Spring.

The most recent moves towards demokracy have all been reactions against Western puppet governments and dictatorships.

In Europe itself, the GFC has seen a move away from demokracy - according to your favourite link, anyway.

Chile might be more democratic now, but this is because the US no longer has influence there. The lowered US presence in South America is a result of the creation of NAFTA, the post-Cold War trading bloc created by the US to compete with the EU.

Strange, once the US shifted its foreign policy emphasis away from Central and South America in the 1990s, they all seemed to rise on your Democracy Index.

Shurely shome mishtake, no?

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« Last Edit: May 7^th, 2014 at 8:25pm by Melanias purse »

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Melanias purse

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Re: local Muslim celebrates ANZAC day
Reply #145 - May 7^th, 2014 at 8:15pm

Soren wrote on May 7^th, 2014 at 8:02pm:

Melanias purse wrote on May 6^th, 2014 at 9:42pm:

It’s a lesson in geopolitics. Iran has more oil than Saudi Arabia, but sanctions mean its people die from the most simple health problems, due to the lack of medicine.

Iran should, or could, be one of the wealthiest countries in the world.

So why are they acting like bunch of loonies?
Who is making them buggers who undermine their own good fortunes?

(Because there always has to be some sinister outside forces in this Fvckauldian world. Nobody and no country is a fvckwit unaided.
Isn't it, PB?)

Oh, indeed. The Saudi loonies seem to get along just fine without trade sanctions, no? They even managed to get away with blowing up the World Trade Centre.

Typical. I blame Islam. Always absolutely never ever fvckwit potty pants.

Stilts.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: local Muslim celebrates ANZAC day
Reply #146 - May 7^th, 2014 at 8:19pm

FD the fact that many democracies today owe their institutions to European influence doesn't change the fact that the US spent most of the Cold War trying to quash most independent democratic movements.

Western democracies, whose systems third world nations understandably want to emulate, can be oppressive towards those third world nations - believe it or not.

You are not making any sort of relevant point here.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Soren

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Re: local Muslim celebrates ANZAC day
Reply #147 - May 7^th, 2014 at 8:38pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 7^th, 2014 at 8:19pm:

FD the fact that many democracies today owe their institutions to European influence doesn't change the fact that the US spent most of the Cold War trying to quash most independent democratic movements.

Western democracies, whose systems third world nations understandably want to emulate, can be oppressive towards those third world nations - believe it or not.

You are not making any sort of relevant point here.

Emulate is the operative word here.

Some are truly free and democratic, others - most - emulate and fake it.
They are mostly Marxists - Groucho Marxists: Honesty - when you can fake that, you have made it.

Democracy is all about how people relate to each other. There will not be democracy in tribal societies because the tribe and the clan will not allow a democratic recognition of one another.
Third world countries are hell-holes because of the way the people perceive and relate to each other. Their contempt, partisan and vicarious hate and suspicion for/of each other makes their societies unbearable.

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Melanias purse Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 101383	Re: local Muslim celebrates ANZAC day Reply #148 - May 7^th, 2014 at 8:44pm Soren wrote on May 7^th, 2014 at 8:38pm: Democracy is all about how people relate to each other. Yes, the old boy actually did say this.
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True Colours

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Re: local Muslim celebrates ANZAC day
Reply #149 - May 7^th, 2014 at 9:37pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 7^th, 2014 at 8:19pm:

FD the fact that many democracies today owe their institutions to European influence doesn't change the fact that the US spent most of the Cold War trying to quash most independent democratic movements.

Western democracies, whose systems third world nations understandably want to emulate, can be oppressive towards those third world nations - believe it or not.

You are not making any sort of relevant point here.

Democracy is the invention of a bunch of pagan homosexuals (living suspiciously close to the Middle East Wink

).

Why did they invent democracy? Because they knew that nearly all of them were a bunch of deviant twisted jerks, and they couldn't trust anyone of them to have too much power.

If democracy was really great, then ask yourself why we don't vote on every major issue? Instead we elect a bunch of people to think for us for 3 or 4 years because we know that most people are too stupid/ignorant to make good decisions on every issue - which begs the question "are the majority of people smart/educated enough to elect good leaders in the first place?"

The Greeks established democracy in Athens in 508 BCE. 28 years later Athens was sacked by the Persian Empire. Athens was constantly at war with its neighbouring city-states, and within a century of instituting democracy had lost its place as the predominant state in Greece.

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