That’s right - the famous Cape Qualified Franchise, A nice idea which lasted for all of five minutes, and abandoned when they realised the Hottentots couldn’t read a roll.

How many bleck polititians were elected in the Cape Qualified Franchise, FD? We’ll have to run that one past Andrei.

He’s not too big a fan of demokraacy, but he loves Freidom.

Plenty of countries that were not demokracies at the time still aren’t. Look at Egypt. I thought for a second they might escape the generals, but no.

Nothing changes, and nothing stays the same.

OK, I'll give you South Africa. It was less democratic than the German Empire, though obviously still more democratic than the other two central powers. That still leaves 7 new and functioning democracies on one side of the war (that I can easily think of), all moving in the opposite direction to the German Empire.

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Does this mean our participation in the world wars did not defend democracy? This sounds like your goal post shifting game again Karnal. You have not just moved them, you have completely hidden them. What counts as success now? Making the entire world democratic overnight?

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About what in particular? About 'making the world safe for democracy'?

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My point was that I never claimed that they said this. They probably did - said it and believed it, but I have not put any words in their mouths. I doubt Mr Wilson was the only one who saw it that way. This is not a denial of everything else that was going on at the time. But the fact is, all the forces of democracy were on one side of this war, and if they had lost it would have been disastrous for democracy. You take democracy for granted, and it may seem fairly robust to you today, but your own points about Iraq and Afghanistan should make you realise how fragile it is. If, in the next few decades, either of these countries lose a war against an undemocratic neighbour, what do you think that would mean for their democracy, assuming there is no big brother to bail them out? That is the situation the world's democracies found themselves in in WWI.

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I am saying that they fought on the side of democracy, and they protected democracy. To make this point as clear as possible, I even extended this to Russia. I doubt any Russian soldiers saw it that way, but their actions helped to defend democracy and freedom, and may one day lead to Russia itself becoming democratic and free (via a length chain of causality, of course).

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Was South korea and accident? What about West Germany? What about Iraq and Afghanistan?

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Because the country was full of Muslims. Because they had been through a quagmire in Vietnam. You have now seen how hard it is to establish democracy in these countries. I wouldn't blame anyone for not wanting to bother. I don't think we should have in Iraq.

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How much fighting did we have to do?

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I have introduced Iraq, Afghanistan, Germany, the USA, Canada, Newfoundland, New Zealand, and Australia. In the other thread I also introduced Malaysia I think, though you may have beaten me to it, and to Indonesia.

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We gifted democracy to Germany three times. First the French revolution introduced it. Bismarck wound it back. After WWI democracy was established again. Hitler burned the Reichstag. After getting rid of Hitler, we established democracy yet again. This time it stuck.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghan_presidential_election,_2014

Presidential elections were held in Afghanistan on 5 April 2014.

There have been reports of polling sites running out of ballot papers due to a high turnout.

The election will be the first time in Afghanistan's history that power will be democratically transferred.

The 2014 presidential elections is the first year Afghan National Security Forces (ANSF) have taken the lead for such an event.

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See my list above. I think that defending our own freedom and democracy is itself a success.

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Thanks. I had forgotten about them. Why does East Timor count but not Iraq and Afghanistan? Does it only count if it costs nothing?

Here is a good list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy#Countries_and_regions

It has 25 countries listed as "full democracies", and seems to have fairly strict criteria.



The Economist Intelligence Unit Democracy index map for 2012, with greener colours representing more democratic countries.
Full democracies:
  9.00-10.00
  8.00-8.99
Flawed democracies:
  7.00-7.99
  6.00-6.99
Hybrid regimes:
  5.00-5.99
  4.00-4.99
Authoritarian regimes:
  3.00-3.99
  2.00-2.99
  0.00-1.99
Insufficient information, no rating:
 

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They look spent to me. The US is pulling out, and they are still impotent to get in the way of elections. They did their best, and sacrificed another 80 of their fighters on election day, but it came to naught.

I know one - Indonesia:

After 30 years of suppression the US finally abandoned their support of the brutal autocrat Suharto.

What a marvelous gift of freedom and democracy eh 

Or maybe we can talk about the US's support for Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge, who continued to destabilise the democratic government right up until 1994.  I guess Cambodia should be kissing the US's feet after the US finally abandoned these brutal bastards.

polite_gandalf wrote on May 5^th, 2014 at 8:29am:


Yes, but to be fair to Uncle, they only supported Suharto with aid, military training, arms sales, World Bank loans for family deals, protection on the UN Security Council...

And business, plenty of business.

Actually, the US never abandoned their support of Suharto. It was the IMF who finally threw down the gauntlet, and only after the books showed Suharto was making US dollars disappear by the half-billion. 

It was the Indonesians who abandoned their support of Suharto, but they hardly count. We're talking about Freeedom here, remember.

When the Asian Financial Crisis hit and the IMF made its rescue package conditional on financial and demokratic reform, the US State Department finally woke up to smell the kopi.

But by then it was too late. The Asian Financial Crisis was threatening to bring down Uncle. What to do?

The Asian Financial Crisis was a direct result of the nepotism and croney capitalism that drove South East Asia through the post-war years. Freeedom? Demokracy? Wealth creation?

Not for Indonesia, and not for the rest of Asia. The Asian Financial Crisis is a clear example of how Amerikan-exported Freeedom in one country can spread through an entire region.

FD blames Islam. Typical.