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It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics (Read 18812 times)
Yadda
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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #45 - Apr 3rd, 2014 at 7:12pm
 
Yadda wrote on Apr 3rd, 2014 at 6:58pm:
Quote:

"....the death of those who are killed for the cause of God gives more impetus to the cause, which continues to thrive on their blood."



ISLAMIC scholar, Sayyid Qutb




A moslem = = is a person who is a member of a group/community of persons, and who embrace a violent political philosophy [which portrays itself as a justice-based 'religious' philosophy], but which encourages intimidation and extreme violence as 'acts of religious faith', against persons who do not believe as they believe.






e.g.
In Egypt [in 2013]....

"...'see what they did to us [i.e. 'they', those disbelievers who oppose us]........'
'If you don't give your lives, if you don't become martyrs, then you are betraying your religion......'

They [i.e. MB cadres] are not fighting any more for their political party, they are fighting for their religion"



Cairo journalist describes Egypt's deadly cycle of love and hate
                       goto 8m 05s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsKFGAtMXLE




e.g. #2,
AND AS PER;
Quote:

Mild mannered -
"We will govern for all Egyptians"
- Mohammed Morsi -
Ex-President of Egypt


"The Koran is our constitution"
"The Prophet Muhammad is our leader"
"Jihad is our path"
"AND DEATH FOR THE SAKE OF ALLAH IS OUR MOST LOFTY ASPIRATION!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8NtiUMOFFg




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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Karnal
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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #46 - Apr 3rd, 2014 at 7:14pm
 
freediver wrote on Apr 3rd, 2014 at 6:58pm:
Karnal wrote on Apr 2nd, 2014 at 10:05pm:
freediver wrote on Apr 2nd, 2014 at 10:00pm:
Quote:
Islam teaches all those things I’ve mentioned. Read Persian poetry, hear Sufi singing, see the carvings, architecture and ceramics of the Moors.


Great. Pottery and wife beating. But the pottery is really nice.

Quote:
The law from Allah, as in the Bible, comes from.disciplined self study and patience. These laws are only revealled through wisdom.


No Karnal. Muhammed asked Allah. Allah said it is OK to beat your wife. That is how the law was revealed. No amount of studying can change that.

Quote:
Islam is much less legalistic than other traditions, including Hinduism and Medieval Catholicism. Islam, like every other religious tradition we know, has changed from time to time and place to place.


You might as well insist Islam does not exist.

Quote:
Times, people - and prophets - change.


I have no idea what you are trying to say. Muslims are not going to reinvent Muhammed himself. The best they can do is "re-interpret" what they have, but this is always limited by the reality of Muhammed and the Koran. There is only so much you can polish a turd.


You’ve clearly done some reading on this, FD.

Abu and Falah, was it?


If you think I am wrong on anything, please point it out. I realise you do your best to keep away from facts or anything specific


Do I?

I’m sorry, FD. Please point out where I’ve avoided facts or anything specific.
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freediver
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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #47 - Apr 3rd, 2014 at 7:18pm
 
Quote:
This doesn’t make one quarter of the world’s population intrinsically better than another quarter. Islam is about submission to the same God as the rest of humanity - not the deification of a prophet.


On what basis do you assert that it is the same God? The submission takes the form of actions, including a whole swathe of political and legal rulings. Waving your arms round and insisting there is a spiritual basis hidden in there somewhere is hardly a robust argument that Islam is less legalistic. Claiming that the rules and laws come from God, one God, with Muhammed as his prophet does not mean it isn't legalistic. It means that Islam places those rules and laws beyond question.

Quote:
It’s a good point. The question for Jesus, however, is how to cultivate and spread love. You need practice and discipline to do this. As a parent, you would understand this. Love requires a vessel.

Love requires wisdom.


Not tapping your head on the ground 25 times a day?

Quote:
People turn to different religions for different reasons. The Dali Lama says that doctors do not prescribe the same medicine for every illness, and nor does he tell people which religion - or not - to follow.  Each religion works differently, as it should.


Is this where you get the thing about Islam being the same religion as all other religions? The Dalai Lama said so, therefor Islam is no different to other religions, therefor we must apologise profusely for it at every opportunity and use whatever mental gymnastics we can to equate Islam with other religions?

Quote:
Islam is not a political movement. Its social-political theory is there to support spiritual development.


Great. It's legalistic because Muhammed saw law as a way to impose religion on everyone (as opposed to say, using religion as a way to impose his law on everyone, which would be completely different....). Therefor Islam isn't legalistic. It just happens to rely on law and politics more than any other religion.

Quote:
People, however, forget this.


Forget what? That Muslims use religion as a cover for oppressive political ideologies?

Quote:
Spreading division and finding fault with others are a symptom of this struggle.


Criticising Islam is a symptom of the struggle to defend liberty, democracy and humanity from Islam. This is perfectly healthy, yet you seem desperate to twist it into some stupid Freudian malaise.

Quote:
This, dear boy, is what you get when you have no knowledge of the people and the community you’re discussing.


Perhaps he is talking about Islam. It is possible to talk about Islam, you know. It does exist.
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Lord Herbert
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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #48 - Apr 3rd, 2014 at 7:26pm
 
wally1 wrote on Apr 2nd, 2014 at 10:34am:
Irshad manji has little support in the Muslim community cause she is lesbian trying to make herself some female Islamic hero.


Ah.

All is explained.
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Pete Waldo
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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #49 - Apr 3rd, 2014 at 7:35pm
 
Karnal wrote on Apr 2nd, 2014 at 10:05pm:
If you think I am wrong on anything, please point it out. I realise you do your best to keep away from facts or anything specific, but you could at least point out what you disagree with.


Why don't you try taking a shot at a detailed reply to my post you ignored?
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1396356294/38#38
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Truth can never be told so as to be understood and not be believed. ~ William Blake
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Pete Waldo
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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #50 - Apr 3rd, 2014 at 7:44pm
 
Soren wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 10:44pm:
It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics. Here's how

Can my religion be reconciled with free expression? The answer is yes
.


Guffaw, guffaw, guffaw, peals of laughter.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/blasphemy_laws.htm

The following lists the penalty for "blasphemy" in some OIC member States in the Middle East cradle of Muhammadanism, like discussing Muhammad as he is revealed thorough Islam's own books, or what we in the west used to know as free speech. A small sampling of Islamic countries' penalty for "blasphemy":

Afghanistan (member OIC) - death penalty
Algeria (member OIC) - 10 years of imprisonment and a fine
Bangladesh - so far, "Prime Minister Sheikh Hasina rejected calls for new laws.....demanding death penalty for people involved in blasphemy."
Egypt (member OIC) - death penalty
Kuwait (member OIC) - death penalty
Malaysia - up to 3 years in prison
Nigeria - "Nigeria prohibits blasphemy by section 204 of its Criminal Code and by permitting Sharia courts to operate in some states.[52][53] Vigilantism frequently usurps the jurisdiction of the courts.[54]"
Pakistan (member OIC) - death penalty
Saudi Arabia (member OIC) - death penalty
Sudan (member OIC) - imprisonment, a fine (up to 8 million Sudanese pounds for having sold a book), and a maximum of forty lashes
Turkey (member OIC) - 1-3 years
UAE (member OIC) - up to the judge, but based on what they do to tourists that are victims of rape.....
Yemen (member OIC) - death penalty

Muhammadanism has always been the very antitheses of freedom, liberty and the right to self-determination.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/islamic_slavery_dhimmitude.htm
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Truth can never be told so as to be understood and not be believed. ~ William Blake
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Karnal
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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #51 - Apr 3rd, 2014 at 8:15pm
 
freediver wrote on Apr 3rd, 2014 at 7:18pm:
Quote:
This doesn’t make one quarter of the world’s population intrinsically better than another quarter. Islam is about submission to the same God as the rest of humanity - not the deification of a prophet.


On what basis do you assert that it is the same God? The submission takes the form of actions, including a whole swathe of political and legal rulings. Waving your arms round and insisting there is a spiritual basis hidden in there somewhere is hardly a robust argument that Islam is less legalistic. Claiming that the rules and laws come from God, one God, with Muhammed as his prophet does not mean it isn't legalistic. It means that Islam places those rules and laws beyond question.

Quote:
It’s a good point. The question for Jesus, however, is how to cultivate and spread love. You need practice and discipline to do this. As a parent, you would understand this. Love requires a vessel.

Love requires wisdom.


Not tapping your head on the ground 25 times a day?

Quote:
People turn to different religions for different reasons. The Dali Lama says that doctors do not prescribe the same medicine for every illness, and nor does he tell people which religion - or not - to follow.  Each religion works differently, as it should.


Is this where you get the thing about Islam being the same religion as all other religions? The Dalai Lama said so, therefor Islam is no different to other religions, therefor we must apologise profusely for it at every opportunity and use whatever mental gymnastics we can to equate Islam with other religions?

Quote:
Islam is not a political movement. Its social-political theory is there to support spiritual development.


Great. It's legalistic because Muhammed saw law as a way to impose religion on everyone (as opposed to say, using religion as a way to impose his law on everyone, which would be completely different....). Therefor Islam isn't legalistic. It just happens to rely on law and politics more than any other religion.

Quote:
People, however, forget this.


Forget what? That Muslims use religion as a cover for oppressive political ideologies?

Quote:
Spreading division and finding fault with others are a symptom of this struggle.


Criticising Islam is a symptom of the struggle to defend liberty, democracy and humanity from Islam. This is perfectly healthy, yet you seem desperate to twist it into some stupid Freudian malaise.

Quote:
This, dear boy, is what you get when you have no knowledge of the people and the community you’re discussing.


Perhaps he is talking about Islam. It is possible to talk about Islam, you know. It does exist.


Does it?

What do you know about it?
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Soren
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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #52 - Apr 3rd, 2014 at 8:44pm
 
Pete Waldo wrote on Apr 3rd, 2014 at 7:44pm:
Soren wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 10:44pm:
It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics. Here's how

Can my religion be reconciled with free expression? The answer is yes
.


Guffaw, guffaw, guffaw, peals of laughter.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/blasphemy_laws.htm

The following lists the penalty for "blasphemy" in some OIC member States in the Middle East cradle of Muhammadanism, like discussing Muhammad as he is revealed thorough Islam's own books, or what we in the west used to know as free speech. A small sampling of Islamic countries' penalty for "blasphemy":

Afghanistan (member OIC) - death penalty
Algeria (member OIC) - 10 years of imprisonment and a fine
Bangladesh - so far, "Prime Minister Sheikh Hasina rejected calls for new laws.....demanding death penalty for people involved in blasphemy."
Egypt (member OIC) - death penalty
Kuwait (member OIC) - death penalty
Malaysia - up to 3 years in prison
Nigeria - "Nigeria prohibits blasphemy by section 204 of its Criminal Code and by permitting Sharia courts to operate in some states.[52][53] Vigilantism frequently usurps the jurisdiction of the courts.[54]"
Pakistan (member OIC) - death penalty
Saudi Arabia (member OIC) - death penalty
Sudan (member OIC) - imprisonment, a fine (up to 8 million Sudanese pounds for having sold a book), and a maximum of forty lashes
Turkey (member OIC) - 1-3 years
UAE (member OIC) - up to the judge, but based on what they do to tourists that are victims of rape.....
Yemen (member OIC) - death penalty

Muhammadanism has always been the very antitheses of freedom, liberty and the right to self-determination.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/islamic_slavery_dhimmitude.htm



Firstly, it is very hurtful and insensitive of you to point out such things. (cuddly, emotional tack)

Secondly, as every schoolboy knows, Muslim countries have nuffin' to do wiv nuffin' relating to Islam or Mohammed. It's all Great Satan and Joooo propaganda to say otherwise. Not to mention Islamophobic. (scholarly, agit-prop tack)

Thirdly, you have been warned, infidel. (the all-too-well known and familiar seething/menacing tack)








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Sprintcyclist
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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #53 - Apr 3rd, 2014 at 8:46pm
 

Fanatical or not ?

Moh - "If someone changes their religion, kill them."

My vote - fanatic #1
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Pete Waldo
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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #54 - Apr 4th, 2014 at 4:31am
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Apr 3rd, 2014 at 8:46pm:
Fanatical or not ?

Moh - "If someone changes their religion, kill them."

My vote - fanatic #1


Who...... errrr ..... whose alter-ego "Allah" ...... was terrorist #1, who set the example for his followers:

Surah 8:12 I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them

Quran 3:21 Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers.....

Qur'an 33:26 "Allah took down the People of the Scripture Book. He cast terror into their hearts. Some you slew, and some you made prisoners. And He made you heirs of their lands, their houses, and their goods, giving you a land which you had not traversed before. And Allah has power over all things."

Muhammad's people cast terror into Yahweh's faithful, peaceful, literate, productive, prosperous people, stole the wealth of generations, and raped their women and little girls and pressed them into sexual slavery. Yet Wally and gand will, little doubt, continue to prostrate themselves toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in worship of Muhammad ...... er ..... the Arabian's deity "Allah".
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Lord Herbert
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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #55 - Apr 4th, 2014 at 6:54am
 
It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics

Children at secondary school 'infiltrated by Muslim extremists' listened to assembly praising Al-Qaeda leader, say teachers

    Staff at Park View Academy accused colleagues of sympathy for Al-Qaeda
    Claimed former terror leader Anwar al-Awlaki was praised in an assembly
    Political views sympathetic to Al-Qaeda also said to have been promoted
    Park View believed to be subject a Department of Education investigation
    Probe relates to claims hard-line Muslims are running Birmingham schools
    Park View denies all allegations, claiming they are fueled by Islamophobia


link

Rats in the national silo.

It's almost like a virus.
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Karnal
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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #56 - Apr 4th, 2014 at 8:27am
 
Pete Waldo wrote on Apr 3rd, 2014 at 7:35pm:
Karnal wrote on Apr 2nd, 2014 at 10:05pm:
If you think I am wrong on anything, please point it out. I realise you do your best to keep away from facts or anything specific, but you could at least point out what you disagree with.


Why don't you try taking a shot at a detailed reply to my post you ignored?
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1396356294/38#38


Sorry, Pete, there's nothing to respond to.

If you'd like a response, it's best not to lecture and berate.

Salaam Aleikum, my dear brother kufffar.
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Karnal
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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #57 - Apr 4th, 2014 at 8:29am
 
Lord Herbert wrote on Apr 4th, 2014 at 6:54am:
It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics

Children at secondary school 'infiltrated by Muslim extremists' listened to assembly praising Al-Qaeda leader, say teachers

    Staff at Park View Academy accused colleagues of sympathy for Al-Qaeda
    Claimed former terror leader Anwar al-Awlaki was praised in an assembly
    Political views sympathetic to Al-Qaeda also said to have been promoted
    Park View believed to be subject a Department of Education investigation
    Probe relates to claims hard-line Muslims are running Birmingham schools
    Park View denies all allegations, claiming they are fueled by Islamophobia


link

Rats in the national silo.

It's almost like a virus.


Why bother with your local library, Herbie? You have the UK Daily Mail.
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0ktema
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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #58 - Apr 4th, 2014 at 10:06am
 
Christianity and Islam have there roots (and much of their law) based in scripture and/or practice developed in the times of the Old Testament.

Islamic reformists struggle to show/claim abrogation of many of the more violent and punitive laws and measures within Islam using ijtihad (independent reasoning). This view is seen as heretical by traditional Islamic scholars from the major schools of thought.

Many (so called) Islamic heretics have and still are being killed because of their views ... similarly many (so called) Christian heretics were put to death during the inquisitions etc.

The advantages Christianity has had in moving forward (beyond old testament times) are unfortunately not greatly shared by Islam.

Jesus (as the central focus of Christianity and exemplar of the epitome it's practice) was not greatly moved to violence beyond perhaps the up-turning of a few tables.

Muhammad on the other hand was not (at various times) avert to high levels of violence being used to achieve his goals. His life and practice as recorded in the Hadiths is largely used as the exemplar for Islamic practice. 

Many modern Islamic reformists would seem to come from the minor school of thought known as Quranism and they certainly have quite an uphill battle ahead of them.



Quote:
Liberal movements within Islam involve Muslims who have produced a considerable body of liberal thought[1][2] on the re-interpretation and reform of Islamic understanding and practice. Their work is sometimes characterised as "progressive Islam" (Arabic: الإسلام التقدمي‎ al-Islām at-taqaddumī ), although some consider progressive Islam and liberal Islam to be two distinct movements.[3]

The methodologies of liberal or progressive Islam rest on the interpretation and re-interpretation of traditional Islamic scripture (the Qu'ran) and other texts (such as the Hadith), a process called ijtihad (see below).[4] This can vary from the slight to the most liberal, where only the meaning of the Qur'an is considered to be a revelation while its expression in words is the work of the prophet Muhammad at his particular time and context. As a consequence, verses from the Qur'an may then be interpreted allegorically or even set aside.

The most liberal Muslim intellectuals who have focused on religious reform include Muhammad Ali, Sayyid al-Qimni, Nasr Abu Zayd, Khalil Abdel-Karim, Abdolkarim Soroush, Mohammed Arkoun, Mohammed Shahrour, Ahmed Subhy Mansour, Edip Yuksel, Gamal al-Banna, Abdullahi Ahmed An-Na'im, Muhammad Tahir-ul-Qadri, Javed Ahmad Ghamidi, Ahmed Al-Gubbanchi, Mahmoud Mohammed Taha, and Faraj Foda. The last two of these, Taha and Foda, were killed in the wake of claims of apostasy, while most of the others have been accused of apostasy by traditional Islamic scholars.

Some liberal Muslims claim that they are returning to the principles of the early Ummah and to the ethical and pluralistic intent of their scripture, the Qur'an.[5] They distance themselves from some traditional and less liberal interpretations of Islamic law, as they consider these to be culturally based and without universal applicability. The reform movement uses monotheism (tawhid) "as an organizing principle for human society and the basis of religious knowledge, history, metaphysics, aesthetics, and ethics, as well as social, economic and world order."[6]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_movements_within_Islam


Quote:
Quranism (Arabic: قرآنيون‎ Qurʾāniyūn, Quraniyoon) is an Islamic movement that holds the Qur'an to be the only authentic source of Islamic faith. Quranists generally reject, therefore, the religious authority of hadith. This is in contrast to the Sunni, Shia and Ibadi doctrines, which consider hadith essential for Islamic faith.[1]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quranism

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« Last Edit: Apr 4th, 2014 at 10:30am by 0ktema »  


"We Are Consciousness Itself"
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Yadda
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Re: It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics
Reply #59 - Apr 4th, 2014 at 10:44am
 
0ktema wrote on Apr 4th, 2014 at 10:06am:

[Mohammed] His life and practice as recorded in the Hadiths is largely used as the exemplar for Islamic practice. 




0ktema,

Yes.

And the facts of which [recorded within the ISLAMIC Hadith], moslems don't want non-moslems to scrutinise and examine.

And nor, to ponder the implications of those that 'reality'.



Because if many non-moslems did actually ponder the implications in what is revealed about the life and conduct, of the founder of ISLAM, they [well] many of them, their eyes would be 'opened' and they would recognise the evil that is being used to subvert their own responsibility, to truth and justice [within their own 'sphere of influence'].

And yes, we, individually, do have a responsibility, to truth and justice, in the world.

But sadly, very few of us recognise that responsibility [which we have], to truth and justice, in the world.


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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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