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Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky (Read 4074 times)
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Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky
Feb 4th, 2014 at 7:35pm
 
Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky for the Climate and the Economy

February 3, 2014 Steve Clemmer, director of energy research, Clean Energy

In last week’s State of the Union (SOTU) address, President Obama reiterated his support for climate science by unequivocally stating “The debate is settled. Climate change is a fact.” He also should be commended for highlighting the urgency of the problem as local communities are already experiencing damaging and costly climate impacts like drought, wildfires, heat waves, and coastal flooding.

But the President’s enthusiasm for increasing natural gas production and use as an important climate solution missed the mark. And like his climate action plan speech at Georgetown University last June, the President highlighted the economic benefits of increasing U.S. natural gas production, while failing to mention the economic risks of an overreliance on natural gas.

More natural gas is a bridge to a warmer world
“If extracted safely,” said President Obama, “it’s the bridge fuel that can power our economy with less carbon pollution that causes climate change.” To his credit, the dramatic shift from coal to natural gas and renewable energy has helped reduce carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions from the U.S. electricity sector to their lowest levels since 1994. After all, burning natural gas to generate electricity produces about half the CO2 as coal. However, natural gas is still a fossil fuel that emits CO2 when combusted and methane when it’s extracted and distributed, contributing to global warming in the process.

A recent UCS analysis and a just released infographic show that transitioning to a natural gas dominated electricity future would not be sufficient to meet U.S. climate goals as power plant carbon emissions would barely change between today and 2050. This is because, in addition to replacing coal, natural gas generation would grow to replace aging nuclear plants and help meet the projected growth in electricity demand.

...

UCS Climate Risks of Natural Gas Infographic

Achieving a low carbon electricity future
To limit the worst consequences of climate change, a 2010 National Research Council report recommended an economy wide carbon budget that would cut U.S. power sector carbon emissions 90 percent from current levels by 2050. To achieve this low carbon future, we found that natural gas generation would need to peak sometime in the next 15 years and then steadily decline to well below current levels by 2050.

While different technology pathways are possible for achieving these emission reductions, we found that a pathway relying on renewable energy to provide 80 percent of U.S. electricity by 2050 and energy efficiency to reduce electricity use by about one percent per year was the lowest cost. In contrast, pathways assuming large-scale deployment of coal and natural gas with carbon capture and storage (CCS) and new nuclear plants were much more expensive and would take much longer to implement.

Reducing fugitive methane emissions
We also show that methane leakage from natural gas production and distribution reduces natural gas’s climate advantages over coal, while boosting the advantages renewables and efficiency have over natural gas. Methane is at least 25 times more potent than CO2 over a 100-year timeframe and at least 72 times stronger over 20-years, according to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC).

A White House fact sheet on SOTU says the administration is taking steps to make gas production safer by developing new environmental standards for oil and gas drilling on public lands and initiating a multi-sector strategy to reduce methane emissions. While this is welcome news, even if we were able to reduce methane leakage completely, our analysis shows that natural gas would still be a problem from a climate perspective because of its carbon emissions.

[continued ...]
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Reply #1 - Feb 4th, 2014 at 7:38pm
 
[... continued]

Economic risks of natural gas
In addition to being risky for the climate, the recent spikes in natural gas and electricity prices experienced in several parts of the country due to cold weather shows that an overreliance on natural gas also has important economic risks (for more details see this blog by my colleague Mike Jacobs). This problem was most acute in New England, as high demand and competition for natural gas for both electricity and home heating drove natural gas and electricity prices to record high levels.

Making matters worse, some natural gas power plants had to be shut down due to supply constraints and limited pipeline capacity, while other plants were shut down due to equipment failure from the cold weather. Other Northeast and Midwest states faced similar problems on January 22, when natural gas prices reached $120 per million Btu and electricity prices exceeded $1,000 per megawatt-hour (10-20 times typical prices for this time of year). Even Texas, a major producer of natural gas, experienced high prices and outages at natural gas plants due to the cold weather.

...

Source: ICF International, Polar Vortex Energy Pricing Implications, January 13, 2014.

The good news is that in all of the regions, wind power made an important contribution to reducing the impact of these outages and price spikes. As more aging coal and nuclear plants are retired in the coming years, this highlights the importance of diversifying the electricity mix with renewables to provide a hedge against rising and volatile natural gas prices.

Implementing EPA carbon standards
Our analysis demonstrates that encouraging states to use renewables and efficiency for complying with EPA carbon standards for new and existing power plants would be a cost-effective, near-term opportunity for reducing the climate and economic risks of an overreliance on natural gas. Given the 30- to 60-year lifetime of most new power plants, the choices we make now will greatly influence whether the worst impacts of climate change can be avoided.

About the author: Steve Clemmer is the director of energy research and an expert on the economic and environmental benefits of implementing renewable energy technologies and policies at the state and national levels. He holds a master’s degree in energy analysis and policy from the University of Wisconsin. See Steve's full bio.
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Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky
Reply #2 - Feb 4th, 2014 at 8:14pm
 
I can tell people that based upon our forward projections for Australia - combined with several conferences I have attended in the last 12-18 months in industry - the advancements made in collection and distribution of natural gas have been off the chart!

We are now able to access and distribute gas that even 10 years ago was impossible to achieve.

We are drilling deeper than every before off-shore, we are collecting gas deposits on-land in areas completely out of our reach in the past and with the advancement in seepage reduction - we are also making it safer and more economically viable from a gross margin point of view.

I am really quite positive about our continued ability to provide energy from sourcing of gas deposits well into the next 100 years and beyond.
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Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky
Reply #3 - Feb 4th, 2014 at 8:23pm
 
Andrei.Hicks wrote on Feb 4th, 2014 at 8:14pm:
... sourcing of gas deposits well into the next 100 years and beyond.
Would that be wise?
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Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky
Reply #4 - Feb 4th, 2014 at 8:27pm
 
# wrote on Feb 4th, 2014 at 8:23pm:
Andrei.Hicks wrote on Feb 4th, 2014 at 8:14pm:
... sourcing of gas deposits well into the next 100 years and beyond.
Would that be wise?



We are looking at gross margins extending into 84% on our deposit sourcing right now so yes it would.

I dont know about our competitors but can't imagine it would be much different.

It's only companies of our size (the big 6 if you like) that have the capital and ability to do it. Small timer catters dont have the ability to source the gas I am referring.

Those deposits are only current projections basedon know reachable depths and current demand.
It could well extend out well beyond that.

Bear in mind when we say 100 years.
Go back around that length of time and we were not far out from using whale oil and firewood.
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Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky
Reply #5 - Feb 4th, 2014 at 9:41pm
 
It's a vast improvement on coal at least. I see it as a good interim measure.
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Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky
Reply #6 - Feb 5th, 2014 at 2:48am
 
Andrei.Hicks wrote on Feb 4th, 2014 at 8:14pm:
I can tell people that based upon our forward projections for Australia - combined with several conferences I have attended in the last 12-18 months in industry - the advancements made in collection and distribution of natural gas have been off the chart!

We are now able to access and distribute gas that even 10 years ago was impossible to achieve.

We are drilling deeper than every before off-shore, we are collecting gas deposits on-land in areas completely out of our reach in the past and with the advancement in seepage reduction - we are also making it safer and more economically viable from a gross margin point of view.

I am really quite positive about our continued ability to provide energy from sourcing of gas deposits well into the next 100 years and beyond.

Pressure is a nonlinearity type subject: good luck with that game!!
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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is.  It wouldn't be there without the tax payer.  Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know....  (swaggy) *
 
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Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky
Reply #7 - Feb 5th, 2014 at 2:52am
 
Andrei.Hicks wrote on Feb 4th, 2014 at 8:27pm:
# wrote on Feb 4th, 2014 at 8:23pm:
Andrei.Hicks wrote on Feb 4th, 2014 at 8:14pm:
... sourcing of gas deposits well into the next 100 years and beyond.
Would that be wise?



We are looking at gross margins extending into 84% on our deposit sourcing right now so yes it would.

I dont know about our competitors but can't imagine it would be much different.

It's only companies of our size (the big 6 if you like) that have the capital and ability to do it. Small timer catters dont have the ability to source the gas I am referring.

Those deposits are only current projections basedon know reachable depths and current demand.
It could well extend out well beyond that.

Bear in mind when we say 100 years.
Go back around that length of time and we were not far out from using whale oil and firewood.

Go monopolisation of, ...well everything!! Limits are rapidly approaching in every direction including the fact increasingly increasing amounts of poor people won't stand for it!!

85 people versus how many???  Roll Eyes
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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is.  It wouldn't be there without the tax payer.  Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know....  (swaggy) *
 
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Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky
Reply #8 - Feb 5th, 2014 at 8:09pm
 
Andrei.Hicks wrote on Feb 4th, 2014 at 8:27pm:
# wrote on Feb 4th, 2014 at 8:23pm:
Andrei.Hicks wrote on Feb 4th, 2014 at 8:14pm:
... sourcing of gas deposits well into the next 100 years and beyond.
Would that be wise?



We are looking at gross margins extending into 84% on our deposit sourcing right now so yes it would.
...
So, if you can do it and make a profit, nothing else matters?
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Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky
Reply #9 - Feb 5th, 2014 at 8:12pm
 
# wrote on Feb 5th, 2014 at 8:09pm:
Andrei.Hicks wrote on Feb 4th, 2014 at 8:27pm:
# wrote on Feb 4th, 2014 at 8:23pm:
Andrei.Hicks wrote on Feb 4th, 2014 at 8:14pm:
... sourcing of gas deposits well into the next 100 years and beyond.
Would that be wise?



We are looking at gross margins extending into 84% on our deposit sourcing right now so yes it would.
...
So, if you can do it and make a profit, nothing else matters?

Not to a planet accountant  Wink Wink
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Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky
Reply #10 - Feb 7th, 2014 at 7:24pm
 
Natural gas as a ‘bridge’. Dangerous procrastination?

by Lindsay Wilson

There has been much talk of natural gas as a ‘bridge’ fuel lately, particularly due to its role in cutting US carbon emissions.

From an economic or energy security point of view this might make some sense, but in terms of climate change natural gas is a half measure that risks dangerous procrastination.

If all the coal fired power stations in the world switched to natural gas tomorrow we wouldn’t go close to stabilizing atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations.

Some simple carbon maths shows why we need to be more ambitious.

Carbon Emission Sources

Fossil fuels have done wonders for economic development ever since the start of the industrial revolution.  But if we want to keep on developing without toasting the planet we need to change how we get our energy.

For me, the easiest way to understand our carbon dioxide problem is to think of it in terms of ‘sources’ and ‘sinks’.

The main sources of man made carbon emissions are oil, coal, natural gas and land use change emissions.  Whilst the main sinks for carbon emissions are the ocean, the land and the atmosphere.

In the last 50 years the amount of carbon dioxide mankind has emitted has grown dramatically, due to rising fossil fuel emissions.

...


Man made carbon emissions have grown by 150% since 1960.

The majority of this growth has come from oil, coal and natural gas with a smaller contribution from cement production and gas flaring.  Land-use change emissions are down over the last decade because the net flux between deforestation and reforestation is slowly improving.

Carbon Emission Sinks

Once carbon dioxide goes into the atmosphere it stays there for a long time. About 33% is still there after 100 years, and 20% is still in the atmosphere after 1000 years.

But when we think about where our emissions go it is simpler to look at the net change that occurs to the sinks each year.  In this way global carbon emissions are balanced by the annual absorption of the ocean, land and atmospheric sinks.

The following chart shows where our human carbon emissions have gone over the last 50 years.

...


The oceans have absorbed 29% of man made carbon emissions since 1960. Land sinks including vegetation, soils and humus have absorbed 27%.  Whilst 44% of carbon emissions have resulted in the growth of atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations.

The light blue section of this chart is equivalent to the share of annual carbon emissions that ends up in the atmosphere.  For each 7.8 Gt CO2 that remains in the atmosphere the atmospheric concentration of carbon dioxide rises by 1 ppm (parts per million). Between 2000 and 2009 we added an average of 15 Gt CO2 to the atmosphere each year resulting in atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations rising by an average of 2 ppm each year.  The growth rate last decade was higher than in any earlier decade.

Between 1960 and 2010 growing carbon emissions have caused atmospheric concentrations of carbon dioxide to grow from 317 ppm to 389 ppm.  If it wasn’t for the ocean and land sinks absorbing more carbon dioxide with both rising concentrations and rising emission rates we would already be pushing 500 ppm.

To stop the growth in the atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations human carbon emissions would need to balanced by the sink capacity growth in the land and oceans.  To slow the acidification of the oceans we would need to do much more.

The Scale of Our Problem

Stabilizing atmospheric concentrations of carbon dioxide is the central challenge of climate change.

We also need action on other positive forcing agents like methane, nitrous oxide, ozone and black carbon, as well as further study of aerosol and cloud management, but without tackling carbon dioxide we cannot properly address climate change.

Although the most common way to highlight the scale of this challenge is as a carbon budget between now and 2050, I find it much easier to understand by just thinking about one year.  That way I’m not thinking about 2050, I’m thinking about what needs to happen today.

I’ll use 2010 as an example.

...


Based on global sources of carbon dioxide in 2010 and the average sink absorption over the last decade we would need to cut global emissions in half to stabilize atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations.  But in fact sinks absorption is also a function of emission rates, so this immediate cut in half would need to be quickly followed by more rapid emissions reductions to maintain stable concentrations.  If technically possible we could also stabilize concentrations by doubling the rate at which carbon dioxide is absorbed by the oceans, land or possibly by some type of technology.  But that technology is not really in existence.

[continued ...]
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Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky
Reply #11 - Feb 7th, 2014 at 7:24pm
 
[... continued]

In terms of cutting emissions a 53% reduction in 2010 emissions is equal to almost 20 Gt.  This equivalent to all land-use emissions, all electricity generation emissions and most building emissions put together.

For some perspective, global emissions from coal fired electricity generation were about 9 Gt  CO2 in 2010.  If every coal fired power station in the world switched to natural gas tomorrow it would cut 5 Gt of CO2 from our emissions at most.  That would be impressive, but it is just a quarter of what is needed to stabilize atmospheric CO2 in the very short term, and nothing like what is needed in the long run.  In fact given the expect rise in power generation global these cuts would be all but cancelled by demand growth.  Moreover, if you also consider methane and particulates in your calculations the ‘benefits’ of switching to gas evaporate even further.  In reality we need to be cutting carbon at 4% per annum while growing energy supply.

If the world is remotely serious about stabilizing atmospheric carbon concentrations while meeting the growing demand for energy in developing economies there is no time for fossil fuel ‘bridges’, unless they include carbon capture and storage.  If no one can make carbon capture and storage work then we need to gradually marginalize fossil fuel use to producing things like steel, cement, plastics and fertilizer and moving them in ships, trucks and planes.

Most forecasts expect global energy demand to grow by 50-100% between now and 2050, as poorer nations develop and the global population grows.  At the same time research highlights the risks of land and ocean sinks becoming less efficient over time. In the worst case scenarios sinks could actually become net sources of emissions in the future due to feedbacks like forest fire, drying peatlands, melting permafrost  and out-gassing from the oceans.

To have any chance of doubling energy use, cutting carbon emissions and improving natural sinks we need every low carbon policy, technology and action available.

The Whole Kitchen & Sink

At present there is no single technology or policy capable of dealing with the carbon problem by itself.  We need to work with everything that we have as well as invest in creating new low carbon tools.

An incomplete menu of our options looks something like this:
  • Carbon pricing – carbon taxes, cap and trade, subsidies
  • Efficiency standards – buildings, vehicles, appliances and gadgets
  • Low carbon power – wind, solar, nuclear, hydro, biomass, geothermal
  • Carbon capture and storage – new build, retrofit, air capture
  • Innovation – power storage, biofuels, materials, vehicles . .
  • Planning – low carbon cities, architecture and design
  • Sinks – deforestation, afforestation, biochar, conservation tillage

Rather than competing many of these ideas actually reinforce one another.

A stable carbon price, for example, would improve the incentives for all manner of technology deployment and innovation.  Efficiency standards can achieve mitigation in sectors that aren’t price sensitive.  And the improvement of land sinks could provide enormous mitigation at relatively low cost while we build new energy infrastructure.

And that is just carbon.  We also need a similar urgency to mitigate black carbon, methane, nitrous oxide and ozone as well as to study if the potential benefits of using the oceans, aerosols or clouds to cool the planet in the future will outweigh the risks.

Whatever the best mix of solutions is one thing is clear, the only fossil fuel ‘bridge’ we can afford to build is carbon capture and storage.  Natural gas might be preferable to coal and oil, and be a natural back-up to wind and solar in the power sector, but it just isn’t good enough given the global carbon constraints.

Given that 87% of global energy supply in 2010 came from coal, oil and natural gas that may sound naive, but the alternative is untenable.  We simply can’t afford to build ‘bridges’ from coal, to tar sands, to shale gas, to methane clathrates.

Our carbon problem requires far greater ambition.
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Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky
Reply #12 - Feb 7th, 2014 at 9:24pm
 
As DRAH says - Jevon's paradox in operation: As technology progresses, the increase in efficiency (in this case improvement in carbon emissions) with which a resource is used tends to increase (rather than decrease) the rate of consumption of that resource. (net increase in carbon emissions) because nobody is reducing coal consumption.

Having said that, Ross Garnaud relied heavily on CCGT in his strategy. The inherent problem is with the lack of strategy, not with the use of natural gas. 

With regards to coal generation in Australia, the banks will not finance any new coal generation. The government has no say in it. It's a financial/commercial decision. Coal generation is slowly bleeding to death.  Many older power stations can't even afford proper maintenance.
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Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky
Reply #13 - Feb 7th, 2014 at 10:43pm
 
Nice graphs- where are the natural CO2 emissions?
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Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky
Reply #14 - Feb 8th, 2014 at 8:57am
 
lee wrote on Feb 7th, 2014 at 10:43pm:
Nice graphs- where are the natural CO2 emissions?


what....97% of CO2 is produced by nature....quick...shunt that elephant out of the room, you know as well as I do the IPCC is only interested in smacking us over for the poofteenth of a percent that humans produce.

CO2 is good, a gazzillion trees have voted and they all agree  Grin
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Reply #15 - Feb 8th, 2014 at 11:40am
 
lee wrote on Feb 7th, 2014 at 10:43pm:
Nice graphs- where are the natural CO2 emissions?


The Natural CO2 fluxes balance each other out.

Learn the basics.
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Reply #16 - Feb 8th, 2014 at 11:48am
 
Rider wrote on Feb 8th, 2014 at 8:57am:
CO2 is good, a gazzillion trees have voted and they all agree  Grin


If you talk to the trees, you could try listening for a change.

Some didn't vote because they were too sick on the day.

...

Many said they might be able to do something about it, but they are no longer capable:

...
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Reply #17 - Feb 8th, 2014 at 12:36pm
 
Nice pictures Muso. So what?

Are you saying that every ppm of co2 equals itself out.......is the science 'in' on this? is the debate 'ovah'? is your job and income dependent on being an alarmist?
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Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky
Reply #18 - Feb 8th, 2014 at 12:40pm
 
muso wrote on Feb 8th, 2014 at 11:40am:
lee wrote on Feb 7th, 2014 at 10:43pm:
Nice graphs- where are the natural CO2 emissions?


The Natural CO2 fluxes balance each other out.

Learn the basics.



How was the calculation of natural CO2 done? What empirical measurements? Or do we rely on models?
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Reply #19 - Feb 8th, 2014 at 2:54pm
 
muso wrote on Feb 8th, 2014 at 11:40am:
...
The Natural CO2 fluxes balance each other out.
...

Rider wrote on Feb 8th, 2014 at 12:36pm:
...
Are you saying that every ppm of co2 equals itself out....... ...

Isn't that the way stable systems work?

lee wrote on Feb 8th, 2014 at 12:40pm:
...
How was the calculation of natural CO2 done? What empirical measurements? Or do we rely on models?
Which denialist has got your knickers in a knot this time?

Isn't the argument that the system was balanced until humanity interfered? So what is your problem?
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Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky
Reply #20 - Feb 8th, 2014 at 4:25pm
 
# wrote on Feb 8th, 2014 at 2:54pm:
muso wrote on Feb 8th, 2014 at 11:40am:
...
The Natural CO2 fluxes balance each other out.
...

Rider wrote on Feb 8th, 2014 at 12:36pm:
...
Are you saying that every ppm of co2 equals itself out....... ...

Isn't that the way stable systems work?

lee wrote on Feb 8th, 2014 at 12:40pm:
...
How was the calculation of natural CO2 done? What empirical measurements? Or do we rely on models?
Which denialist has got your knickers in a knot this time?

Isn't the argument that the system was balanced until humanity interfered? So what is your problem?



So, in times past, when we had in excess of 1200ppm, it was a balanced system?
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Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky
Reply #21 - Feb 8th, 2014 at 5:32pm
 
lee wrote on Feb 8th, 2014 at 4:25pm:
So, in times past, when we had in excess of 1200ppm, it was a balanced system?


Ah these wonderful paleo CO2 levels. Funny how you just accept something as tenuous as that. How was the calculation of paleo CO2 done? What empirical measurements? Or do we just rely on models?

Did it involve Dr Who's Tardis? - or maybe Mr Spock's tricorder?

You don't need the tricorder to say that a present day measurement of carbon fluxes is much more accurate than a modelled paleo CO2 concentration.

- but at this juncture,  Mr Spock would be raising his eyebrow and saying, "Beam us up, Scotty there's no intelligent life down here."
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Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky
Reply #22 - Feb 8th, 2014 at 5:34pm
 
Rider wrote on Feb 8th, 2014 at 12:36pm:
Nice pictures Muso. So what?

Are you saying that every ppm of co2 equals itself out.......is the science 'in' on this? is the debate 'ovah'?


Learn the basics. These are questions that a 10th grader could answer.
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« Last Edit: Feb 8th, 2014 at 5:43pm by muso »  

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Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky
Reply #23 - Feb 8th, 2014 at 7:19pm
 
muso wrote on Feb 8th, 2014 at 5:32pm:
, "Beam us up, Scotty there's no intelligent life down here."



Was that really said?muso wrote on Feb 8th, 2014 at 5:32pm:
Ah these wonderful paleo CO2 levels.



perhaps you could tell us your take on those levels? You're the scientist- you tell us.
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Reply #24 - Feb 8th, 2014 at 8:10pm
 
lee wrote on Feb 8th, 2014 at 4:25pm:
# wrote on Feb 8th, 2014 at 2:54pm:
muso wrote on Feb 8th, 2014 at 11:40am:
...
The Natural CO2 fluxes balance each other out.
...

Rider wrote on Feb 8th, 2014 at 12:36pm:
...
Are you saying that every ppm of co2 equals itself out....... ...

Isn't that the way stable systems work?

lee wrote on Feb 8th, 2014 at 12:40pm:
...
How was the calculation of natural CO2 done? What empirical measurements? Or do we rely on models?
Which denialist has got your knickers in a knot this time?

Isn't the argument that the system was balanced until humanity interfered? So what is your problem?



So, in times past, when we had in excess of 1200ppm, it was a balanced system?
I'll take that as a 'no'.

So tell me, what is the direction and magnitude of the natural imbalance?
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Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky
Reply #25 - Feb 8th, 2014 at 8:46pm
 
lee wrote on Feb 8th, 2014 at 7:19pm:
muso wrote on Feb 8th, 2014 at 5:32pm:
, "Beam us up, Scotty there's no intelligent life down here."



Was that really said?muso wrote on Feb 8th, 2014 at 5:32pm:
Ah these wonderful paleo CO2 levels.



perhaps you could tell us your take on those levels? You're the scientist- you tell us.


I'd be wasting my time and effort when you automatically accept something like that without question, without the slightest question of how accurate these figures could possibly be.  You just accept it as holy gospel.

- And yet you question basic determinations and direct measurements that are carried out today.

I'll be frank. You have no hope of judging the truth, and I'd be wasting my time on you. That shouldn't come as any great revelation to anyone with an open mind. 

My only possible objective here would be to expose your hypocrisy and ignorance. I'm being kind here. Maybe it's just wilful disinformation driven by advocacy.

Quote:
Was that really said?

...
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Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky
Reply #26 - Feb 8th, 2014 at 8:54pm
 
muso wrote on Feb 8th, 2014 at 8:46pm:
I'd be wasting my time and effort when you automatically accept something like that without question, without the slightest question of how accurate these figures could possibly be.  You just accept it as holy gospel.

- And yet you question basic determinations and direct measurements that are carried out today.


So what are the current prognostications on CO2, excluding young ice core data, as there seems to be some controversy over moving gas bubbles in young ice.

I realise that figures are somewhat rubbery in the historical record, and that includes the modern historical record.

I was merely asking for your take on the historical record.
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Reply #27 - Feb 8th, 2014 at 9:05pm
 
lee wrote on Feb 8th, 2014 at 8:54pm:
muso wrote on Feb 8th, 2014 at 8:46pm:
I'd be wasting my time and effort when you automatically accept something like that without question, without the slightest question of how accurate these figures could possibly be.  You just accept it as holy gospel.

- And yet you question basic determinations and direct measurements that are carried out today.


So what are the current prognostications on CO2, excluding young ice core data, as there seems to be some controversy over moving gas bubbles in young ice.

I realise that figures are somewhat rubbery in the historical record, and that includes the modern historical record.

I was merely asking for your take on the historical record.


Are you now saying that the global atmospheric CO2 was 1200ppm in historic times? I think you're waffling.

As the patient said to the prognosticating acupuncture practitioner,

This is painful. Can you please get to the point?
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Reply #28 - Feb 9th, 2014 at 11:22am
 
This was an interesting thread but has been reduced to yet another denialist rant. Lee, Rider. You are both out of your depth. Please go and read some books while we continue with the actual topic.

On that: I'm happy for big petroleum to pump out and burn all the gas they want, as long as they're happy to pay all the externalised costs, present and future.
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Reply #29 - Feb 9th, 2014 at 12:31pm
 
All right - So the CO2 flux was in equilibrium at 280 ppm?

Just trying to understand where the equilibrium point is.

@ Paella - What rant? I merely asked questions.
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Reply #30 - Feb 9th, 2014 at 1:33pm
 
# wrote on Feb 8th, 2014 at 8:10pm:
lee wrote on Feb 8th, 2014 at 4:25pm:
# wrote on Feb 8th, 2014 at 2:54pm:
muso wrote on Feb 8th, 2014 at 11:40am:
...
The Natural CO2 fluxes balance each other out.
...

Rider wrote on Feb 8th, 2014 at 12:36pm:
...
Are you saying that every ppm of co2 equals itself out....... ...

Isn't that the way stable systems work?

lee wrote on Feb 8th, 2014 at 12:40pm:
...
How was the calculation of natural CO2 done? What empirical measurements? Or do we rely on models?
Which denialist has got your knickers in a knot this time?

Isn't the argument that the system was balanced until humanity interfered? So what is your problem?



So, in times past, when we had in excess of 1200ppm, it was a balanced system?
I'll take that as a 'no'.

So tell me, what is the direction and magnitude of the natural imbalance?

lee wrote on Feb 9th, 2014 at 12:31pm:
...
Just trying to understand where the equilibrium point is.
...
What makes you think there's only one "equilibrium point"?
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Reply #31 - Feb 9th, 2014 at 1:58pm
 
# wrote on Feb 9th, 2014 at 1:33pm:
What makes you think there's only one "equilibrium point"?



if there is more than one equilibrium point; how can we define which one will gives us CAGW?
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Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky
Reply #32 - Feb 9th, 2014 at 2:12pm
 
lee wrote on Feb 9th, 2014 at 1:58pm:
# wrote on Feb 9th, 2014 at 1:33pm:
What makes you think there's only one "equilibrium point"?



if there is more than one equilibrium point; how can we define which one will gives us CAGW?


42, I think.
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Reply #33 - Feb 9th, 2014 at 6:05pm
 
The 2007 IPCC emissions scenarios project a range of total emissions from 770 to 2100 Gtc by 2100 (note that each of these scenarios assume no specific action aimed at reducing carbon emissions). The estimates of CO2 concentration by 2100 range from 540 to 970 ppm, but NONE of these concentrations are stabilised. I.e. CO2 concentration is not at the point where total natural and man made emissions equals total deep ocean sequestration (or in other words, equilibrium). To estimate stabilised CO2 concentrations you first need estimates of where emissions might stabilise.
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Reply #34 - Feb 9th, 2014 at 6:32pm
 
Paella wrote on Feb 9th, 2014 at 6:05pm:
The 2007 IPCC emissions scenarios project a range of total emissions from 770 to 2100 Gtc by 2100 (note that each of these scenarios assume no specific action aimed at reducing carbon emissions). The estimates of CO2 concentration by 2100 range from 540 to 970 ppm, but NONE of these concentrations are stabilised. I.e. CO2 concentration is not at the point where total natural and man made emissions equals total deep ocean sequestration (or in other words, equilibrium). To estimate stabilised CO2 concentrations you first need estimates of where emissions might stabilise.



yes and what were the revisions on the last report? AR5.

Deep ocean sequestration has only been found since necessary adjustments were made to the Argo buoys.
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Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky
Reply #35 - Feb 9th, 2014 at 6:40pm
 
lee wrote on Feb 9th, 2014 at 1:58pm:
# wrote on Feb 9th, 2014 at 1:33pm:
What makes you think there's only one "equilibrium point"?



if there is more than one equilibrium point; how can we define which one will gives us CAGW?
What makes you think we can?
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Reply #36 - Feb 9th, 2014 at 6:58pm
 
# wrote on Feb 9th, 2014 at 6:40pm:
What makes you think we can?



I don't- I thought you, perhaps, thought YOU could.
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Reply #37 - Feb 9th, 2014 at 7:03pm
 
lee wrote on Feb 9th, 2014 at 6:58pm:
# wrote on Feb 9th, 2014 at 6:40pm:
What makes you think we can?



I don't- I thought you, perhaps, thought YOU could.
So why not just take the advice of the majority of the best qualified?
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Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky
Reply #38 - Feb 9th, 2014 at 8:03pm
 
lee wrote on Feb 9th, 2014 at 6:58pm:
# wrote on Feb 9th, 2014 at 6:40pm:
What makes you think we can?



I don't- I thought you, perhaps, thought YOU could.


Nobody can answer meaningless questions. Not even you.

I'll stand by my answer. It's 42. Prove me wrong.
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Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky
Reply #39 - Feb 9th, 2014 at 8:13pm
 
Gas is absolutely seen by industry as the partner into the future for energy for a low emissions reduction perspective and covering the energy supply gap.
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Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky
Reply #40 - Feb 10th, 2014 at 3:09pm
 
Andrei.Hicks wrote on Feb 9th, 2014 at 8:13pm:
Gas is absolutely seen by industry as the partner into the future for energy for a low emissions reduction perspective and covering the energy supply gap.
By industry, perhaps, but not by scientists. At least, not by the author of the OP.

Which to believe?
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Reply #41 - Feb 10th, 2014 at 5:38pm
 
lee wrote on Feb 9th, 2014 at 6:32pm:
Deep ocean sequestration has only been found since necessary adjustments were made to the Argo buoys.


?!

There is no other form of natural permanent sequestration, and you think we just found it?

Are you saying that until we adjusted the Argo Boys, we never knew how all that black stuff under the ground got there?

But it's beside the point, which is that CO2 stabilises when emissions from all sources equals total sequestration, argo buoy pedantry notwithstanding.
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Reply #42 - Feb 10th, 2014 at 5:47pm
 
Gas is seen by producers as a medium term energy source - an interim solution until renewable infrastructure can be established. I know that for a fact.

If natural gas is used as a replacement for coal by employing modern Combined Cycle Gas Turbine generation (with heat recovery) then you can expect a carbon footprint 1/3 of  that of the most efficient coal generation. If it shuts down an old inefficient coal fired power station, the advantage is 10 to 1.

It is also one step away from ISCC (Integrated Solar Combined Cycle).

As I said before, Ross Garnaut also saw that as a way forward in his strategy for transforming the electricity sector.

http://www.garnautreview.org.au/update-2011/update-papers/up8-transforming-elect...

The OP is trying to blame the lack of strategy on the use of natural gas. That just doesn't make sense. Intrinscially, Natural Gas has a lighter carbon footprint.
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Reply #43 - Feb 10th, 2014 at 6:16pm
 
Paella wrote on Feb 10th, 2014 at 5:38pm:
lee wrote on Feb 9th, 2014 at 6:32pm:
Deep ocean sequestration has only been found since necessary adjustments were made to the Argo buoys.


?!

There is no other form of natural permanent sequestration, and you think we just found it?

Are you saying that until we adjusted the Argo Boys, we never knew how all that black stuff under the ground got there?

But it's beside the point, which is that CO2 stabilises when emissions from all sources equals total sequestration, argo buoy pedantry notwithstanding.



'This gives rise to the concept of “missing energy” (Trenberth and Fasullo 2010).  Where is the energy going?    New estimates of ocean heat content show a growing large discrepancy between ocean heat content integrated for the upper 300 vs 700 vs total depth.  The latter continues a fairly steady upward trend while the surface temperatures and upper ocean heat content undergo a hiatus in warming after about 2004. The role of the ocean in taking up energy well below the surface is emerging as a major issue in observations and modeling. Improved monitoring of TOA energy imbalance such as from a suite of small radiometers in space would prove exceedingly useful.'

http://www.rmets.org/weather-and-climate/climate/energy-and-climate-dr-kevin-e-t...

You don't trust Trenberth?
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Reply #44 - Feb 10th, 2014 at 8:29pm
 
That article is about ocean-atmosphere heat transfer. Not CO2 sequestration.
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Reply #45 - Feb 10th, 2014 at 8:40pm
 
Paella wrote on Feb 10th, 2014 at 8:29pm:
That article is about ocean-atmosphere heat transfer. Not CO2 sequestration.


You're right my error.
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Reply #46 - Feb 10th, 2014 at 8:54pm
 
Why do you continue to regurgitate this nonsense which has absolutely nothing to do with the OP?
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Reply #47 - Feb 10th, 2014 at 9:16pm
 
muso wrote on Feb 10th, 2014 at 8:54pm:
Why do you continue to regurgitate this nonsense which has absolutely nothing to do with the OP?



You're right- I apologise.

'In last week’s State of the Union (SOTU) address, President Obama reiterated his support for climate science by unequivocally stating “The debate is settled. Climate change is a fact.”'

Yes Climate Change is fact it has been going on since time immemorial; but he probably didn't mean that - he probably meant-

'The role of the IPCC as stated in paragraph 2 of the Principles Governing IPCC Work is to assess on a comprehensive, objective, open and transparent basis the scientific, technical and socio-economic information relevant to understanding the scientific basis of risk of human-induced climate change, '

https://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/ipcc-principles/ipcc-conflict-of-interest.pdf

Except of course the debate is not settled. More scientists are questioning the published papers, which is why we have studies on ocean currents, trade winds etc. Even if they are still proposing a human element, and I agree there is, it is still debate.
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Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky
Reply #48 - Feb 10th, 2014 at 9:36pm
 
lee wrote on Feb 10th, 2014 at 9:16pm:
Except of course the debate is not settled. More scientists are questioning the published papers, which is why we have studies on ocean currents, trade winds etc. Even if they are still proposing a human element, and I agree there is, it is still debate.


Scientists always question published papers. It's what we do.
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Reply #49 - Feb 10th, 2014 at 10:15pm
 
muso wrote on Feb 10th, 2014 at 9:36pm:
Scientists always question published papers. It's what we do.

A rather good point.
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Reply #50 - Feb 12th, 2014 at 2:10pm
 
lee wrote on Feb 10th, 2014 at 9:16pm:
... the debate is not settled. ...
What science is?
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Reply #51 - Feb 12th, 2014 at 2:22pm
 
Not solely about gas, but relevant, I reckon.

GRANTHAM: The Great American Shale Boom Is A Dangerous Waste Of Time And Money

Rob Wile Feb 7, 2014, 9:47 AM

Jeremy Grantham, whose GMO LLC investment firm manages $US117 billion in assets, says the Great American Shale Boom is a dangerous waste of time and money.

Grantham, who started his career as an economist at Shell, recently contemplated attending an anti-Keystone Pipeline demonstration in front of the White House.

In his new letter to clients, Grantham explains why any country, from the U.S. to China, still going down the path of developing fossil fuels is walking into a trap.

First, he argues we are overstating the benefits of switching to natural gas:
Quote:
“Fracking gas,” like all natural gas, is basically methane. Methane unfortunately is an even more potent greenhouse gas than CO2: at an interval of 100 years it is now estimated to be 32 times as bad, and at 20 years to be 72 times worse! If it leaks from well head to stove by more than 3%, it gives back its critical advantage and becomes no better than coal in its climate effect. Emissions, for whatever reasons, have not been carefully monitored. It would be nice, though, to know how fast we are roasting our planet. A series of tests in the next three years or so, privately funded, will measure leakages. In old cities with Victorian era gas lines, leakage will be terrible — probably 2% or 3% on their own. At some “cowboy” wells, emissions will be much higher than that.

Next, he discusses the links between fracking and earthquakes:
Quote:
Exhibit 1 [below] is my favourite example of circumstantial evidence (presented initially in Science). You can see that in the Midwest earthquakes measuring over 3.0 on the Richter Scale occurred with the almost remarkable regularity of 17 a day on average. Decade after decade this pattern continued — producing a remarkably straight line — until 2002, when the line climbed steadily above trend, coincident with the drilling of fracking wells in the region. From 2002 until now the average has risen by over three times to 54 a day and peaked in 2011 at 171! There is no prize for pointing out that few, if any, individual incidents can be attributed to a particular well with certainty, but to me at least the connection is clear and statistically certain..

...


Grantham then discusses why he believes fossil fuel drilling is a waste of time: Renewables growth, he says, is lapping the growth in all other forms of energy, and that it’s pointless for the other guys to try to compete.
Quote:
Even in the expected event that there are no important breakthroughs in the cost of nuclear power, the potential for alternative energy sources, mainly solar and wind power, to completely replace coal and gas for utility generation globally is, I think, certain. The question is only whether it takes 30 years or 70 years. That we will replace oil for land transportation with electricity or fuel cells derived indirectly from electricity is also certain, and there, perhaps, the timing question is whether this will take 20 or 40 years. To my eyes, the progress in these areas is accelerating rapidly and will surprise almost everybody, I hope including me.

And here’s the waste-of-money part: First, Grantham believes technologies costing billions to exploit things like tar sands, as well as those that would create “clean coal,” will be rendered “stranded assets” by renewables. Meanwhile, he adds, we have deluded ourselves into thinking abundant shale oil equates to cheap shale oil:
Quote:
The real oil problem is its cost — that it costs $US75 to $US85 a barrel from search to delivery to find a decent amount of traditional oil when as recently as 15 years ago it cost $US25. And fracking is not cheap. The fact that increased fracking has been great for creating new jobs should give you some idea: it is both labour- and capital-intensive compared to traditional oil. Also, we drill the best sites in the best fields first, so do not expect the costs to fall per barrel (although the costs per well drilled certainly will fall with experience, the output per well will also fall). No, fracking, like extracting tar sands, yields a relatively costly type of oil that you resort to only when the easy, cheap stuff is finished. Fracking wells also run off fast. We still get 10% of global oil from a single traditional field discovered in 1945 that is still chugging along. Fracking wells are basically done for in three years. They are definitely not your grandfather’s oil wells!

Grantham goes on to admit that he was wrong about peak oil. But we also must remember he was right about the Internet bubble, and the housing bubble.

So we should probably pay attention.
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Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky
Reply #52 - Feb 12th, 2014 at 5:51pm
 
# wrote on Feb 12th, 2014 at 2:10pm:
lee wrote on Feb 10th, 2014 at 9:16pm:
... the debate is not settled. ...
What science is?


From the article-

'President Obama reiterated his support for climate science by unequivocally stating “The debate is settled. Climate change is a fact'

So according to BO, it is. Take it up with him.
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Reply #53 - Feb 13th, 2014 at 7:08am
 
Germ theory, evolution, the world is round, smoking causes cancer.

Are these settled? Or does the presence of a handful of nutjob contrarians render them otherwise?
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Reply #54 - Feb 13th, 2014 at 5:32pm
 
lee wrote on Feb 12th, 2014 at 5:51pm:
# wrote on Feb 12th, 2014 at 2:10pm:
lee wrote on Feb 10th, 2014 at 9:16pm:
... the debate is not settled. ...
What science is?


From the article-

'President Obama reiterated his support for climate science by unequivocally stating “The debate is settled. Climate change is a fact'

So according to BO, it is. Take it up with him.


Last time I checked, Obama was not a scientist, however from a layman's viewpoint, it is as much of a fact as saying that the Earth orbits the sun. .
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Reply #55 - Feb 13th, 2014 at 5:53pm
 
There is only one way that current Energy Technology &/or anything remotely on the horizon, is going to be sufficient for the next 100 or even 50 years AND THAT WOULD BE IF THERE IS A MASSIVE DECLINE IN HUMAN POPULATION LEVELS and that is quite likely.

But, from the longer term perspective of the survival of the Human species, we will need more than a large dose of HOPIUM, we will actually need some real long term planning, which will necessitate an open & frank discussion with all of those involved including the Global Public & then some not so nice decisions must be made, NUT they MUST be fair to all sections or the whole system will come crashing down, not just part or most of it!
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Reply #56 - Feb 13th, 2014 at 7:55pm
 
OK, I reckon I see where your confusion arises.
lee wrote on Feb 12th, 2014 at 5:51pm:
# wrote on Feb 12th, 2014 at 2:10pm:
lee wrote on Feb 10th, 2014 at 9:16pm:
... the debate is not settled. ...
What science is?
That's about science.

lee wrote on Feb 12th, 2014 at 5:51pm:
From the article-

'President Obama reiterated his support for climate science by unequivocally stating “The debate is settled. Climate change is a fact'

So according to BO, it is. Take it up with him.
That's about politics.

Science is never finished. That's something that Conservatives in general and denialists in particular seem unable or unwilling to get their heads around.

That fundamental of science leads to a lack of certainty which Conservatives seem to find terrifying. In the absence of certainty, the Conservatives' reaction is paralysis. Decisions are impossible, unless they can convince themselves that they're certain.

Obama's position requires him to make decisions. Given that scientists have repeatedly shown that the vast majority are as certain as science ever gets about global warming and its causes, then his “The debate is settled. Climate change is a fact.” sums up the situation accurately enough.

By the way: lee wrote on Feb 10th, 2014 at 9:16pm:
... More scientists are questioning the published papers, ...
You can't substantiate that assertion, can you? Repeated surveys have shown that all but a fringe agree on global warming. It seems to me that the fringe is getting smaller, not larger.
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Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky
Reply #57 - Feb 13th, 2014 at 8:08pm
 
muso wrote on Feb 13th, 2014 at 5:32pm:
Last time I checked, Obama was not a scientist



Maybe he should sack some science advisors. Wink
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Reply #58 - Feb 13th, 2014 at 8:10pm
 
lee wrote on Feb 13th, 2014 at 8:08pm:
muso wrote on Feb 13th, 2014 at 5:32pm:
Last time I checked, Obama was not a scientist



Maybe he should sack some science advisors. Wink
Why?
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Reply #59 - Feb 13th, 2014 at 8:19pm
 
New solar threat to networks – death spiral for gas

By Giles Parkinson on 10 February 2014

Australia’s energy utilities have added a new element to their push for solar incentive schemes to be removed, arguing that gas networks now face the same threat as the nation’s network of poles and wires – a “death spiral” scenario where rising costs push consumers to consider other technologies.

The Energy Network Association – which represents the distribution and transmission networks in the electricity and gas markets – has called on the federal government to remove the small-scale renewable energy scheme, which provides certificates for rooftop solar PV, and solar hot water systems, as well as heat pumps.

“To reduce pressure on electricity prices, we should stop subsidising technologies that don’t need it,” ENA CEO John Bradley said in a media statement accompanying its submission to the Energy White Paper. “Solar PV technology is now well established and is forecast to undergo significant growth without further subsidies.”

Bradley also said gas hot water systems – which provide significant emission reductions compared to the 4 million electric water heaters still in the market – are competing against subsidised heat pumps and solar hot water systems in distorted appliance markets.

The push to remove subsidies for solar comes as the ENA takes stock of the potential impact of the soaring gas prices that will be caused by the coal seam gas and LNG booms in eastern Australia.

It warns that the cost of wholesale gas supply will likely “significantly affect” residential customers through higher retail gas prices. But, if customers reduce gas consumption by looking at other technologies, then this could force even greater rises in gas prices because “infrastructure costs would have to be recouped over a smaller customer base.”
shutter gas

In effect, the gas industry is facing the same problem as the electricity industry, where rising prices are causing consumers to look at other options, forcing networks to try to recoup the cost of investment from falling volumes.

The ENA wants the Small-scale Renewable Energy Scheme (SRES) – which provides certificates for solar hot water and solar PV modules – removed. And it says the Million Solar Roofs program could increase those market distortions. As RenewEcoomy reported last year, there is considerable doubt about how the Solar Roofs program will be implemented, or what funding will finally be allocated.

If the solar schemes are not removed, then the ENA wants the SRES and other schemes extended to gas appliances, as well as solar hot water and heat pumps.

The submission comes as the gas industry grapples with rising fuel costs that is pushing generation out of the market, and flowing through to consumer bills. Last week, Stanwell Corp said it would close its biggest gas generator, Swanbank, because it was now too expensive to operate, and instead sell gas to the LNG producers.

Stanwell has blamed rooftop solar for rendering its 4,000MW of coal and gas-fired generators profitless in the last financial year. Meanwhile, the Queensland Competition Authority has flagged the first price rises from the gas boom, predicting it would be the biggest single factor in rising electricity bills in 2014/15.

The ENA is calling for the government to “intervene” and ensure that there are no blockages to gas supply in an effort to keep a lid on costs.

Network operators are caught between protecting their investment and coping with changes to fuel and delivery costs, and new technologies. The ENA recognises that the industry is going through fundamental change.

It was interesting, however, to note how the ENA responded to the CSIRO’s fascinating Future Grid report, which canvassed four scenarios for networks and consumers into the future.

One of them was ‘set and forget”, or business as usual, which can be discarded because it is improbable. Another was the “high renewables” scenario, which might be attractive but unlikely with the current government in place.

The other two scenarios predicted massive change, particularly through on-site generation and distributed energy. If the networks failed to embrace this, up to one-third of consumers may leave the grid in frustration. If the networks did respond, and embraced new technologies and business models, then “prosumers” could be providing nearly half of all generation on-site. Either scenario has major implications for incumbent industries.

[continued ...]
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Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky
Reply #60 - Feb 13th, 2014 at 8:20pm
 
[... continued]

ENA, however, dismissed the off the grid scenario because of the higher capital cost over business as usual. But it missed the point – the CSIRO modelling suggested that despite the higher upfront costs, the bills to consumers in this scenario would be cheaper, which is what will motivate them to take action in the first place. That is what is motivating households to spend money on rooftop solar, because ultimately it will deliver cheaper electricity. If the ENA can succeed in removing the remaining incentives, then the payback for such investment lengthens, making the investment less attractive.

The ENA describes the pro-sumer scenario, where nearly half of all generation is supplied on-site, on rooftops and at business sites, as “irrational”.
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Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky
Reply #61 - Feb 14th, 2014 at 10:40am
 
# wrote on Feb 13th, 2014 at 8:10pm:
lee wrote on Feb 13th, 2014 at 8:08pm:
muso wrote on Feb 13th, 2014 at 5:32pm:
Last time I checked, Obama was not a scientist



Maybe he should sack some science advisors. Wink
Why?



SOTU is a carefully crafted document, created by his horde of media advisors, who rely on his advisors, including John Holdren, chief science advisor. It is inconceivalble the climate change part of his speech did not have input from Holdren.

If Holdren did not insist on "the debate is settled" being excluded, then he failed in his duty.

Unless you think SOTU was an off the cuff piece crafted on a table napkin.
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Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky
Reply #62 - Feb 14th, 2014 at 12:44pm
 
lee wrote on Feb 14th, 2014 at 10:40am:
# wrote on Feb 13th, 2014 at 8:10pm:
lee wrote on Feb 13th, 2014 at 8:08pm:
muso wrote on Feb 13th, 2014 at 5:32pm:
Last time I checked, Obama was not a scientist



Maybe he should sack some science advisors. Wink
Why?



SOTU is a carefully crafted document, created by his horde of media advisors, who rely on his advisors, including John Holdren, chief science advisor. It is inconceivalble the climate change part of his speech did not have input from Holdren.

If Holdren did not insist on "the debate is settled" being excluded, then he failed in his duty.

Unless you think SOTU was an off the cuff piece crafted on a table napkin.
# wrote on Feb 13th, 2014 at 7:55pm:
... Given that scientists have repeatedly shown that the vast majority are as certain as science ever gets about global warming and its causes, then his “The debate is settled. Climate change is a fact.” sums up the situation accurately enough.
...
SOTU is a political speech, not a scientific treatise. From that perspective, the President's statement is the effective truth.
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Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky
Reply #63 - Feb 14th, 2014 at 12:49pm
 
# wrote on Feb 14th, 2014 at 12:44pm:
SOTU is a political speech, not a scientific treatise. From that perspective, the President's statement is the effective truth.



So we have truth and effective truth?
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Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky
Reply #64 - Feb 14th, 2014 at 1:01pm
 
lee wrote on Feb 14th, 2014 at 12:49pm:
# wrote on Feb 14th, 2014 at 12:44pm:
SOTU is a political speech, not a scientific treatise. From that perspective, the President's statement is the effective truth.



So we have truth and effective truth?
Do you deny that, within the limits of scientific uncertainty, what the President said is true?
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Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky
Reply #65 - Feb 14th, 2014 at 1:46pm
 
# wrote on Feb 14th, 2014 at 1:01pm:
Do you deny that, within the limits of scientific uncertainty, what the President said is true?



Do you admit effective truth = propaganda?
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Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky
Reply #66 - Feb 14th, 2014 at 5:46pm
 
Lee, This is thread is about over-reliance on natural gas. It's not for your Church of Denial sermons.
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Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky
Reply #67 - Feb 14th, 2014 at 5:57pm
 
lee wrote on Feb 14th, 2014 at 10:40am:
If Holdren did not insist on "the debate is settled" being excluded, then he failed in his duty.

Unless you think SOTU was an off the cuff piece crafted on a table napkin.


You can't communicate science to the general public using scientific language about 95-99% certainties. 

As far as the basics of climate science are concerned, it's appropriate to use the term fact, just as it's appropriate to say that it's a fact that the Earth orbits the sun.

If on the other hand, you want to concentrate on those aspects that have lower degrees of certainty, then the appropriate language is "we're not sure", so for example -

We know for a fact that increased greenhouse gas emissions to the atmosphere causes increased warming.  That's a consequence of the fact that existing greenhouse gases cause warming. However, we are not sure if this will increase the severity of tropical cyclones significantly  in the next 30 years.
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Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky
Reply #68 - Feb 14th, 2014 at 6:05pm
 
muso wrote on Feb 14th, 2014 at 5:46pm:
Lee, This is thread is about over-reliance on natural gas. It's not for your Church of Denial sermons.



And not IPCC being less than 5% certain of the warming in the short term. Grin
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Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky
Reply #69 - Feb 14th, 2014 at 7:07pm
 
lee wrote on Feb 14th, 2014 at 1:46pm:
# wrote on Feb 14th, 2014 at 1:01pm:
Do you deny that, within the limits of scientific uncertainty, what the President said is true?



Do you admit effective truth = propaganda?
I'll take that as a 'no' from you. There's no need for you to get hysterical, lee.
# wrote on Feb 13th, 2014 at 7:55pm:
... Given that scientists have repeatedly shown that the vast majority are as certain as science ever gets about global warming and its causes, then his “The debate is settled. Climate change is a fact.” sums up the situation accurately enough.
...
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Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky
Reply #70 - Feb 14th, 2014 at 7:52pm
 
lee wrote on Feb 14th, 2014 at 6:05pm:
muso wrote on Feb 14th, 2014 at 5:46pm:
Lee, This is thread is about over-reliance on natural gas. It's not for your Church of Denial sermons.



And not IPCC being less than 5% certain of the warming in the short term. Grin


Can I join in? Blessed be the Lord Monckton.
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Reply #71 - Feb 14th, 2014 at 8:57pm
 
Funny. And I wasn't even the one who introduced SOTU.

Don't you like the footer from AR5 SPM, Table SPM.2, which I included in its entirety, in "Interesting or not" thread?

If their confidence is less than 5 - 95% confidence level, doesn't that make it a no-confidence level?

Nothing to do with Monckton, sorry to disappoint.
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Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky
Reply #72 - Feb 15th, 2014 at 9:25am
 
I think it's about time this thread was cleaned of all posts that have nothing to do with over-reliance of natural gas.
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