Australian Politics Forum - Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky

muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky Reply #15 - Feb 8^th, 2014 at 11:40am lee wrote on Feb 7^th, 2014 at 10:43pm: Nice graphs- where are the natural CO2 emissions? The Natural CO2 fluxes balance each other out. Learn the basics.
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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky Reply #16 - Feb 8^th, 2014 at 11:48am Rider wrote on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 8:57am: CO2 is good, a gazzillion trees have voted and they all agree If you talk to the trees, you could try listening for a change. Some didn't vote because they were too sick on the day. Many said they might be able to do something about it, but they are no longer capable:
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Rider Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2669 OnTheRoad Gender:	Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky Reply #17 - Feb 8^th, 2014 at 12:36pm Nice pictures Muso. So what? Are you saying that every ppm of co2 equals itself out.......is the science 'in' on this? is the debate 'ovah'? is your job and income dependent on being an alarmist?
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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21603 Gender:	Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky Reply #18 - Feb 8^th, 2014 at 12:40pm muso wrote on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 11:40am: lee wrote on Feb 7^th, 2014 at 10:43pm: Nice graphs- where are the natural CO2 emissions? The Natural CO2 fluxes balance each other out. Learn the basics. How was the calculation of natural CO2 done? What empirical measurements? Or do we rely on models?
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#

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Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky
Reply #19 - Feb 8^th, 2014 at 2:54pm

muso wrote on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 11:40am:

...
The Natural CO2 fluxes balance each other out.
...

Rider wrote on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 12:36pm:

...
Are you saying that every ppm of co2 equals itself out....... ...

Isn't that the way stable systems work?

lee wrote on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 12:40pm:

...
How was the calculation of natural CO2 done? What empirical measurements? Or do we rely on models?

Which denialist has got your knickers in a knot this time?

Isn't the argument that the system was balanced until humanity interfered? So what is your problem?

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lee

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Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky
Reply #20 - Feb 8^th, 2014 at 4:25pm

# wrote on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 2:54pm:

muso wrote on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 11:40am:

...
The Natural CO2 fluxes balance each other out.
...

Rider wrote on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 12:36pm:

...
Are you saying that every ppm of co2 equals itself out....... ...

Isn't that the way stable systems work?

lee wrote on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 12:40pm:

...
How was the calculation of natural CO2 done? What empirical measurements? Or do we rely on models?

Which denialist has got your knickers in a knot this time?

Isn't the argument that the system was balanced until humanity interfered? So what is your problem?

So, in times past, when we had in excess of 1200ppm, it was a balanced system?

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muso

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Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky
Reply #21 - Feb 8^th, 2014 at 5:32pm

lee wrote on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 4:25pm:

So, in times past, when we had in excess of 1200ppm, it was a balanced system?

Ah these wonderful paleo CO2 levels. Funny how you just accept something as tenuous as that. How was the calculation of paleo CO2 done? What empirical measurements? Or do we just rely on models?

Did it involve Dr Who's Tardis? - or maybe Mr Spock's tricorder?

You don't need the tricorder to say that a present day measurement of carbon fluxes is much more accurate than a modelled paleo CO2 concentration.

- but at this juncture, Mr Spock would be raising his eyebrow and saying, "Beam us up, Scotty there's no intelligent life down here."

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« Last Edit: Feb 8^th, 2014 at 6:06pm by muso »

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky Reply #22 - Feb 8^th, 2014 at 5:34pm Rider wrote on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 12:36pm: Nice pictures Muso. So what? Are you saying that every ppm of co2 equals itself out.......is the science 'in' on this? is the debate 'ovah'? Learn the basics. These are questions that a 10th grader could answer.
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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21603 Gender:	Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky Reply #23 - Feb 8^th, 2014 at 7:19pm muso wrote on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 5:32pm: , "Beam us up, Scotty there's no intelligent life down here." Was that really said?muso wrote on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 5:32pm: Ah these wonderful paleo CO2 levels. perhaps you could tell us your take on those levels? You're the scientist- you tell us.
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Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky
Reply #24 - Feb 8^th, 2014 at 8:10pm

lee wrote on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 4:25pm:

# wrote on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 2:54pm:

muso wrote on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 11:40am:

...
The Natural CO2 fluxes balance each other out.
...

Rider wrote on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 12:36pm:

...
Are you saying that every ppm of co2 equals itself out....... ...

Isn't that the way stable systems work?

lee wrote on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 12:40pm:

...
How was the calculation of natural CO2 done? What empirical measurements? Or do we rely on models?

Which denialist has got your knickers in a knot this time?

Isn't the argument that the system was balanced until humanity interfered? So what is your problem?

So, in times past, when we had in excess of 1200ppm, it was a balanced system?

I'll take that as a 'no'.

So tell me, what is the direction and magnitude of the natural imbalance?

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muso

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Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky
Reply #25 - Feb 8^th, 2014 at 8:46pm

lee wrote on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 7:19pm:

muso wrote on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 5:32pm:

, "Beam us up, Scotty there's no intelligent life down here."

Was that really said?muso wrote on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 5:32pm:

Ah these wonderful paleo CO2 levels.

perhaps you could tell us your take on those levels? You're the scientist- you tell us.

I'd be wasting my time and effort when you automatically accept something like that without question, without the slightest question of how accurate these figures could possibly be. You just accept it as holy gospel.

- And yet you question basic determinations and direct measurements that are carried out today.

I'll be frank. You have no hope of judging the truth, and I'd be wasting my time on you. That shouldn't come as any great revelation to anyone with an open mind.

My only possible objective here would be to expose your hypocrisy and ignorance. I'm being kind here. Maybe it's just wilful disinformation driven by advocacy.

Quote:

Was that really said?

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« Last Edit: Feb 8^th, 2014 at 9:01pm by muso »

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lee

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Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky
Reply #26 - Feb 8^th, 2014 at 8:54pm

muso wrote on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 8:46pm:

I'd be wasting my time and effort when you automatically accept something like that without question, without the slightest question of how accurate these figures could possibly be. You just accept it as holy gospel.

- And yet you question basic determinations and direct measurements that are carried out today.

So what are the current prognostications on CO2, excluding young ice core data, as there seems to be some controversy over moving gas bubbles in young ice.

I realise that figures are somewhat rubbery in the historical record, and that includes the modern historical record.

I was merely asking for your take on the historical record.

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muso

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Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky
Reply #27 - Feb 8^th, 2014 at 9:05pm

lee wrote on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 8:54pm:

muso wrote on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 8:46pm:

I'd be wasting my time and effort when you automatically accept something like that without question, without the slightest question of how accurate these figures could possibly be. You just accept it as holy gospel.

- And yet you question basic determinations and direct measurements that are carried out today.

So what are the current prognostications on CO2, excluding young ice core data, as there seems to be some controversy over moving gas bubbles in young ice.

I realise that figures are somewhat rubbery in the historical record, and that includes the modern historical record.

I was merely asking for your take on the historical record.

Are you now saying that the global atmospheric CO2 was 1200ppm in historic times? I think you're waffling.

As the patient said to the prognosticating acupuncture practitioner,

This is painful. Can you please get to the point?

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Paella

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Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky
Reply #28 - Feb 9^th, 2014 at 11:22am

This was an interesting thread but has been reduced to yet another denialist rant. Lee, Rider. You are both out of your depth. Please go and read some books while we continue with the actual topic.

On that: I'm happy for big petroleum to pump out and burn all the gas they want, as long as they're happy to pay all the externalised costs, present and future.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21603 Gender:	Re: Overreliance on Natural Gas: Risky Reply #29 - Feb 9^th, 2014 at 12:31pm All right - So the CO2 flux was in equilibrium at 280 ppm? Just trying to understand where the equilibrium point is. @ Paella - What rant? I merely asked questions.
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