Australian Politics Forum - Lawsuits for climate disasters?

Chimp_Logic

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Re: Lawsuits for climate disasters?
Reply #30 - Jan 27^th, 2014 at 4:03pm

Aussie wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 3:45pm:

Quote:

If a lawyer's primary responsibility isn't to exposing the TRUTH - the only way true justice can be served - then who are these people? What do they represent? Who do they work for?

That's easy. Their client and the client's interests.....there are professional and ethical constraints.....but none of them direct that Lawyers must be seekers of the 'truth.'

The 'truth' as an absolute is a slippery beast ~ almost impossible to nail down in any legal contest. Almost always, my client's truth is the complete opposite of the truth according to the client of my opponent yet we are each in Court to maximise the likelihood the Court will conclude that our client's truth is more believable.

So we can PAY lawyers to lie, spin and omit the truth and evidence.

You do realise what that makes the legal profession don't you?

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Aussie

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Re: Lawsuits for climate disasters?
Reply #31 - Jan 27^th, 2014 at 4:20pm

Chimp_Logic wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 4:03pm:

Aussie wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 3:45pm:

Quote:

If a lawyer's primary responsibility isn't to exposing the TRUTH - the only way true justice can be served - then who are these people? What do they represent? Who do they work for?

That's easy. Their client and the client's interests.....there are professional and ethical constraints.....but none of them direct that Lawyers must be seekers of the 'truth.'

The 'truth' as an absolute is a slippery beast ~ almost impossible to nail down in any legal contest. Almost always, my client's truth is the complete opposite of the truth according to the client of my opponent yet we are each in Court to maximise the likelihood the Court will conclude that our client's truth is more believable.

So we can PAY lawyers to lie, spin and omit the truth and evidence.

You do realise what that makes the legal profession don't you?

Lawyers do not enter the witness box and give evidence. Nothing we say in Court is evidence......so there is no lie by the Lawyer.

Quote:

.....spin and omit the truth and evidence.

If by 'spin,' you mean we make submissions, comments, pose questions consistent with evidence to enhance our client's interests ~ yes, we do that. We are unable to 'omit the truth' as it is not our job to determine it. Not even Courts will make the claim that they get to the 'truth.' They make judgements based on the evidence they found credible and apply the Law to those facts. As for 'omit evidence'.....this is a trickier beast to explain in this environment. Obviously, we are not going to present evidence to the Court which is inconsistent with the client's case. But, leading up to any Hearing is a process called 'discovery' and what used to be called 'interrogatories" and through that, we have professional obligations to ensure that the client makes proper disclosure, even of material which is not helpful.

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Chimp_Logic

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Re: Lawsuits for climate disasters?
Reply #32 - Jan 27^th, 2014 at 4:37pm

Aussie wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 4:20pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 4:03pm:

Aussie wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 3:45pm:

Quote:

If a lawyer's primary responsibility isn't to exposing the TRUTH - the only way true justice can be served - then who are these people? What do they represent? Who do they work for?

That's easy. Their client and the client's interests.....there are professional and ethical constraints.....but none of them direct that Lawyers must be seekers of the 'truth.'

The 'truth' as an absolute is a slippery beast ~ almost impossible to nail down in any legal contest. Almost always, my client's truth is the complete opposite of the truth according to the client of my opponent yet we are each in Court to maximise the likelihood the Court will conclude that our client's truth is more believable.

So we can PAY lawyers to lie, spin and omit the truth and evidence.

You do realise what that makes the legal profession don't you?

Lawyers do not enter the witness box and give evidence. Nothing we say in Court is evidence......so there is no lie by the Lawyer.

Quote:

.....spin and omit the truth and evidence.

If by 'spin,' you mean we make submissions, comments, pose questions consistent with evidence to enhance our client's interests ~ yes, we do that. We are unable to 'omit the truth' as it is not our job to determine it. Not even Courts will make the claim that they get to the 'truth.' They make judgements based on the evidence they found credible and apply the Law to those facts. As for 'omit evidence'.....this is a trickier beast to explain in this environment. Obviously, we are not going to present evidence to the Court which is inconsistent with the client's case. But, leading up to any Hearing is a process called 'discovery' and what used to be called 'interrogatories" and through that, we have professional obligations to ensure that the client makes proper disclosure, even of material which is not helpful.

But if a member of the public did the same thing, they would be considered accomplices, or at least accessories after the fact, would they not?

Tell me, what sort of system provides indemnity and protection to legal professionals in court as they gallop in there with their pathetic costumes and wigs and proceed to distort the truth and partake in omission of evidence and facts???

Sounds like a crime syndicate to me.

Is it any wonder how certain crimes are ignored - like those of the rich and powerful?

Reminds me of the Robert Zimmerman song

"....steal a little and they throw you in Jail, steal a lot and they make you king"

this is what you defend - a system of moral and legal corruption - right to very core

I can only assume that you are personally embedded in this corrupt system

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Mini Ice Age (2014-2029)
Dr Sircus cures cancer with Baking Soda and Magnesium - Jethro the MENTAL GIANT & his flute madness

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Aussie Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 39948 Gender:	Re: Lawsuits for climate disasters? Reply #33 - Jan 27^th, 2014 at 4:44pm I theenk you are in transmission only mode Mr Chimp. You obviously have very well cemented, deeply pre-conceived concepts (all misconceived) of the pretty technical role Lawyers have, and it is clear that there is nothing I can say which will budge you even one inch. So, thanks for the chat. Cheers.
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namnugenot

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Re: Lawsuits for climate disasters?
Reply #34 - Jan 27^th, 2014 at 5:28pm

Chimp_Logic wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 4:37pm:

Aussie wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 4:20pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 4:03pm:

Aussie wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 3:45pm:

Quote:

If a lawyer's primary responsibility isn't to exposing the TRUTH - the only way true justice can be served - then who are these people? What do they represent? Who do they work for?

That's easy. Their client and the client's interests.....there are professional and ethical constraints.....but none of them direct that Lawyers must be seekers of the 'truth.'

The 'truth' as an absolute is a slippery beast ~ almost impossible to nail down in any legal contest. Almost always, my client's truth is the complete opposite of the truth according to the client of my opponent yet we are each in Court to maximise the likelihood the Court will conclude that our client's truth is more believable.

So we can PAY lawyers to lie, spin and omit the truth and evidence.

You do realise what that makes the legal profession don't you?

Lawyers do not enter the witness box and give evidence. Nothing we say in Court is evidence......so there is no lie by the Lawyer.

Quote:

.....spin and omit the truth and evidence.

If by 'spin,' you mean we make submissions, comments, pose questions consistent with evidence to enhance our client's interests ~ yes, we do that. We are unable to 'omit the truth' as it is not our job to determine it. Not even Courts will make the claim that they get to the 'truth.' They make judgements based on the evidence they found credible and apply the Law to those facts. As for 'omit evidence'.....this is a trickier beast to explain in this environment. Obviously, we are not going to present evidence to the Court which is inconsistent with the client's case. But, leading up to any Hearing is a process called 'discovery' and what used to be called 'interrogatories" and through that, we have professional obligations to ensure that the client makes proper disclosure, even of material which is not helpful.

But if a member of the public did the same thing, they would be considered accomplices, or at least accessories after the fact, would they not?

Tell me, what sort of system provides indemnity and protection to legal professionals in court as they gallop in there with their pathetic costumes and wigs and proceed to distort the truth and partake in omission of evidence and facts???

Sounds like a crime syndicate to me.

Is it any wonder how certain crimes are ignored - like those of the rich and powerful?

Reminds me of the Robert Zimmerman song

"....steal a little and they throw you in Jail, steal a lot and they make you king"

this is what you defend - a system of moral and legal corruption - right to very core

I can only assume that you are personally embedded in this corrupt system

You don't like the system...next election you march down to that polling place and give em hell with your vote.

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Chimp_Logic

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Re: Lawsuits for climate disasters?
Reply #35 - Jan 27^th, 2014 at 6:51pm

namnugenot wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 5:28pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 4:37pm:

Aussie wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 4:20pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 4:03pm:

Aussie wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 3:45pm:

Quote:

If a lawyer's primary responsibility isn't to exposing the TRUTH - the only way true justice can be served - then who are these people? What do they represent? Who do they work for?

That's easy. Their client and the client's interests.....there are professional and ethical constraints.....but none of them direct that Lawyers must be seekers of the 'truth.'

The 'truth' as an absolute is a slippery beast ~ almost impossible to nail down in any legal contest. Almost always, my client's truth is the complete opposite of the truth according to the client of my opponent yet we are each in Court to maximise the likelihood the Court will conclude that our client's truth is more believable.

So we can PAY lawyers to lie, spin and omit the truth and evidence.

You do realise what that makes the legal profession don't you?

Lawyers do not enter the witness box and give evidence. Nothing we say in Court is evidence......so there is no lie by the Lawyer.

Quote:

.....spin and omit the truth and evidence.

If by 'spin,' you mean we make submissions, comments, pose questions consistent with evidence to enhance our client's interests ~ yes, we do that. We are unable to 'omit the truth' as it is not our job to determine it. Not even Courts will make the claim that they get to the 'truth.' They make judgements based on the evidence they found credible and apply the Law to those facts. As for 'omit evidence'.....this is a trickier beast to explain in this environment. Obviously, we are not going to present evidence to the Court which is inconsistent with the client's case. But, leading up to any Hearing is a process called 'discovery' and what used to be called 'interrogatories" and through that, we have professional obligations to ensure that the client makes proper disclosure, even of material which is not helpful.

But if a member of the public did the same thing, they would be considered accomplices, or at least accessories after the fact, would they not?

Tell me, what sort of system provides indemnity and protection to legal professionals in court as they gallop in there with their pathetic costumes and wigs and proceed to distort the truth and partake in omission of evidence and facts???

Sounds like a crime syndicate to me.

Is it any wonder how certain crimes are ignored - like those of the rich and powerful?

Reminds me of the Robert Zimmerman song

"....steal a little and they throw you in Jail, steal a lot and they make you king"

this is what you defend - a system of moral and legal corruption - right to very core

I can only assume that you are personally embedded in this corrupt system

You don't like the system...next election you march down to that polling place and give em hell with your vote.

I am giving you hell

don't run away

respond to the points I make - or just ignore them - either is fine

But don't tell me to go elsewhere to voice dissent because you are incapable or not willing to engage in an honourable fashion

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Mini Ice Age (2014-2029)
Dr Sircus cures cancer with Baking Soda and Magnesium - Jethro the MENTAL GIANT & his flute madness

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namnugenot

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Re: Lawsuits for climate disasters?
Reply #36 - Jan 27^th, 2014 at 7:21pm

Chimp_Logic wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 6:51pm:

namnugenot wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 5:28pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 4:37pm:

Aussie wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 4:20pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 4:03pm:

Aussie wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 3:45pm:

Quote:

If a lawyer's primary responsibility isn't to exposing the TRUTH - the only way true justice can be served - then who are these people? What do they represent? Who do they work for?

That's easy. Their client and the client's interests.....there are professional and ethical constraints.....but none of them direct that Lawyers must be seekers of the 'truth.'

The 'truth' as an absolute is a slippery beast ~ almost impossible to nail down in any legal contest. Almost always, my client's truth is the complete opposite of the truth according to the client of my opponent yet we are each in Court to maximise the likelihood the Court will conclude that our client's truth is more believable.

So we can PAY lawyers to lie, spin and omit the truth and evidence.

You do realise what that makes the legal profession don't you?

Lawyers do not enter the witness box and give evidence. Nothing we say in Court is evidence......so there is no lie by the Lawyer.

Quote:

.....spin and omit the truth and evidence.

If by 'spin,' you mean we make submissions, comments, pose questions consistent with evidence to enhance our client's interests ~ yes, we do that. We are unable to 'omit the truth' as it is not our job to determine it. Not even Courts will make the claim that they get to the 'truth.' They make judgements based on the evidence they found credible and apply the Law to those facts. As for 'omit evidence'.....this is a trickier beast to explain in this environment. Obviously, we are not going to present evidence to the Court which is inconsistent with the client's case. But, leading up to any Hearing is a process called 'discovery' and what used to be called 'interrogatories" and through that, we have professional obligations to ensure that the client makes proper disclosure, even of material which is not helpful.

But if a member of the public did the same thing, they would be considered accomplices, or at least accessories after the fact, would they not?

Tell me, what sort of system provides indemnity and protection to legal professionals in court as they gallop in there with their pathetic costumes and wigs and proceed to distort the truth and partake in omission of evidence and facts???

Sounds like a crime syndicate to me.

Is it any wonder how certain crimes are ignored - like those of the rich and powerful?

Reminds me of the Robert Zimmerman song

"....steal a little and they throw you in Jail, steal a lot and they make you king"

this is what you defend - a system of moral and legal corruption - right to very core

I can only assume that you are personally embedded in this corrupt system

You don't like the system...next election you march down to that polling place and give em hell with your vote.

I am giving you hell

don't run away

respond to the points I make - or just ignore them - either is fine

But don't tell me to go elsewhere to voice dissent because you are incapable or not willing to engage in an honourable fashion

To repeat lawyers work under the same system as everyone else.
What a lawyer would like the law to be does not make it so.
Two sources of law, governments either directly through legislation or indirectly where the legislative power of the parliament is delegated but they retain the ability to disallow it and judge made law or common law as in court precedents. If a parliament does not like a particular aspect of the common law they can institute legislation that will over-ride it. So the common law only exists at the discretion of parliaments.
The parliament represents the will of the people as expressed through the democratic process.
So if anyone is responsible for the system and the laws instituted under it then bless me it's the voter...
In this regard I also only have a single vote. I can write a stern letter to my MP. I can also start a petition. You may like to try any of these.

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# Gold Member Offline A fool is certain: an ignorant fool, absolutely so Posts: 2603	Re: Lawsuits for climate disasters? Reply #37 - Jan 27^th, 2014 at 7:53pm Chimp_Logic wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 4:03pm: ... So we can PAY lawyers to lie, spin and omit the truth and evidence. You do realise what that makes the legal profession don't you? Have you ever noticed how many politicians are lawyers?
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Chimp_Logic

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Re: Lawsuits for climate disasters?
Reply #38 - Jan 27^th, 2014 at 9:30pm

# wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 7:53pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 4:03pm:

...

So we can PAY lawyers to lie, spin and omit the truth and evidence.

You do realise what that makes the legal profession don't you?

Have you ever noticed how many politicians are lawyers? Tongue

in western nations that is a very common observation

In China, if you examine the professional background of the members of the ruling party in Beijing, you will find that about 95% of them are either scientists or engineers.

You get what you pay for - or rather what you vote for

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Mini Ice Age (2014-2029)
Dr Sircus cures cancer with Baking Soda and Magnesium - Jethro the MENTAL GIANT & his flute madness

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namnugenot

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Re: Lawsuits for climate disasters?
Reply #39 - Jan 28^th, 2014 at 7:26am

Chimp_Logic wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 9:30pm:

# wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 7:53pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 4:03pm:

...

So we can PAY lawyers to lie, spin and omit the truth and evidence.

You do realise what that makes the legal profession don't you?

Have you ever noticed how many politicians are lawyers? Tongue

in western nations that is a very common observation

In China, if you examine the professional background of the members of the ruling party in Beijing, you will find that about 95% of them are either scientists or engineers.

You get what you pay for - or rather what you vote for

Scientists and engineers...how enlightened...

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Chimp_Logic

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Re: Lawsuits for climate disasters?
Reply #40 - Jan 28^th, 2014 at 10:46am

namnugenot wrote on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 7:26am:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 9:30pm:

# wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 7:53pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 4:03pm:

...

So we can PAY lawyers to lie, spin and omit the truth and evidence.

You do realise what that makes the legal profession don't you?

Have you ever noticed how many politicians are lawyers? Tongue

in western nations that is a very common observation

In China, if you examine the professional background of the members of the ruling party in Beijing, you will find that about 95% of them are either scientists or engineers.

You get what you pay for - or rather what you vote for

Scientists and engineers...how enlightened...

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o72/robyncutie/jody%20ONLY/abc_execution3_080...

Care to examine the US record with the same arrow vision?

look at our own bloody past, which is continuing right up this very day

take some time out and see WHO YOU REALLY ARE

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Mini Ice Age (2014-2029)
Dr Sircus cures cancer with Baking Soda and Magnesium - Jethro the MENTAL GIANT & his flute madness

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namnugenot

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Australian Politics

Posts: 639
NSW
Gender: male

Re: Lawsuits for climate disasters?
Reply #41 - Jan 28^th, 2014 at 11:41am

Chimp_Logic wrote on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 10:46am:

namnugenot wrote on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 7:26am:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 9:30pm:

# wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 7:53pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 4:03pm:

...

So we can PAY lawyers to lie, spin and omit the truth and evidence.

You do realise what that makes the legal profession don't you?

Have you ever noticed how many politicians are lawyers? Tongue

in western nations that is a very common observation

In China, if you examine the professional background of the members of the ruling party in Beijing, you will find that about 95% of them are either scientists or engineers.

You get what you pay for - or rather what you vote for

Scientists and engineers...how enlightened...

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o72/robyncutie/jody%20ONLY/abc_execution3_080...

Care to examine the US record with the same arrow vision?

look at our own bloody past, which is continuing right up this very day

take some time out and see WHO YOU REALLY ARE

China executions 2009 upwards of 5,000 - USA executions 2009 - 52....yes I see the similarity....Australia executions 2009 - 0.

Don't presume to lecture me on my own history. Lots of bad things happened to Indigenous Peoples not only from "whites" but also from other Indigenous peoples and not least of which was the native police. It just goes to show how little you know about Australian Indigenous peoples and history, black or white. Everyone has a bloody ancestral past...each and every one of us...that's why we're here and others are not.
I also have convict ancestors one was chained up at night not 30km from where I live in a spot that overlooks the town that was subsequently built and he did not ever take his shirt off because his back was pure scar tissue.
Everyone who displeased the establishment then was treated much the same.

We all have good and bad ancestors and I know it has zero bearing on who I am....but I see what you are.

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BatteriesNotIncluded

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MediocrityNET: because
people died for this!

Posts: 26966

Re: Lawsuits for climate disasters?
Reply #42 - Jan 28^th, 2014 at 1:18pm

namnugenot wrote on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 11:41am:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 10:46am:

namnugenot wrote on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 7:26am:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 9:30pm:

# wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 7:53pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 4:03pm:

...

So we can PAY lawyers to lie, spin and omit the truth and evidence.

You do realise what that makes the legal profession don't you?

Have you ever noticed how many politicians are lawyers? Tongue

in western nations that is a very common observation

In China, if you examine the professional background of the members of the ruling party in Beijing, you will find that about 95% of them are either scientists or engineers.

You get what you pay for - or rather what you vote for

Scientists and engineers...how enlightened...

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o72/robyncutie/jody%20ONLY/abc_execution3_080...

Care to examine the US record with the same arrow vision?

look at our own bloody past, which is continuing right up this very day

take some time out and see WHO YOU REALLY ARE

China executions 2009 upwards of 5,000 - USA executions 2009 - 52....yes I see the similarity....Australia executions 2009 - 0.

Don't presume to lecture me on my own history. Lots of bad things happened to Indigenous Peoples not only from "whites" but also from other Indigenous peoples and not least of which was the native police. It just goes to show how little you know about Australian Indigenous peoples and history, black or white. Everyone has a bloody ancestral past...each and every one of us...that's why we're here and others are not.
I also have convict ancestors one was chained up at night not 30km from where I live in a spot that overlooks the town that was subsequently built and he did not ever take his shirt off because his back was pure scar tissue.
Everyone who displeased the establishment then was treated much the same.

http://www.redicecreations.com/ul_img/21515austral1869.jpg

We all have good and bad ancestors and I know it has zero bearing on who I am....but I see what you are.

So why pick on the Chinese in the first?? Shocked

Answer please,... Huh

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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is. It wouldn't be there without the tax payer. Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know.... (swaggy) *

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#

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A fool is certain: an
ignorant fool, absolutely
so

Posts: 2603

Re: Lawsuits for climate disasters?
Reply #43 - Jan 28^th, 2014 at 2:09pm

namnugenot wrote on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 7:26am:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 9:30pm:

# wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 7:53pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 4:03pm:

...

So we can PAY lawyers to lie, spin and omit the truth and evidence.

You do realise what that makes the legal profession don't you?

Have you ever noticed how many politicians are lawyers? Tongue

in western nations that is a very common observation

In China, if you examine the professional background of the members of the ruling party in Beijing, you will find that about 95% of them are either scientists or engineers.

You get what you pay for - or rather what you vote for

Scientists and engineers...how enlightened...

Tradition has it that the family of the executed is billed 1元. That's the cost of the bullet. User pays (or, the user being in no position to pay, the estate of the user pays). No good market capitalist could object to that.

Conservative Enlightenment!

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namnugenot

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Posts: 639
NSW
Gender: male

Re: Lawsuits for climate disasters?
Reply #44 - Jan 28^th, 2014 at 3:46pm

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 1:18pm:

namnugenot wrote on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 11:41am:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 10:46am:

namnugenot wrote on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 7:26am:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 9:30pm:

# wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 7:53pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 4:03pm:

...

So we can PAY lawyers to lie, spin and omit the truth and evidence.

You do realise what that makes the legal profession don't you?

Have you ever noticed how many politicians are lawyers? Tongue

in western nations that is a very common observation

In China, if you examine the professional background of the members of the ruling party in Beijing, you will find that about 95% of them are either scientists or engineers.

You get what you pay for - or rather what you vote for

Scientists and engineers...how enlightened...

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o72/robyncutie/jody%20ONLY/abc_execution3_080...

Care to examine the US record with the same arrow vision?

look at our own bloody past, which is continuing right up this very day

take some time out and see WHO YOU REALLY ARE

China executions 2009 upwards of 5,000 - USA executions 2009 - 52....yes I see the similarity....Australia executions 2009 - 0.

Don't presume to lecture me on my own history. Lots of bad things happened to Indigenous Peoples not only from "whites" but also from other Indigenous peoples and not least of which was the native police. It just goes to show how little you know about Australian Indigenous peoples and history, black or white. Everyone has a bloody ancestral past...each and every one of us...that's why we're here and others are not.
I also have convict ancestors one was chained up at night not 30km from where I live in a spot that overlooks the town that was subsequently built and he did not ever take his shirt off because his back was pure scar tissue.
Everyone who displeased the establishment then was treated much the same.

http://www.redicecreations.com/ul_img/21515austral1869.jpg

We all have good and bad ancestors and I know it has zero bearing on who I am....but I see what you are.

So why pick on the Chinese in the first?? Shocked

Answer please,... Huh

"In China, if you examine the professional background of the members of the ruling party in Beijing, you will find that about 95% of them are either scientists or engineers."

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