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Climate change: Let’s ask the right question. (Read 1444 times)
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Climate change: Let’s ask the right question.
Jan 18th, 2014 at 7:34pm
 
OPINION PIECE – Climate change: Let’s ask the right question.


Professor Chubb has written an opinion piece on climate change in response to recent articles by the Chairman of the Prime Minister’s Business Advisory Council Maurice Newman.

It has been published in The Australian and you can download a pdf version here (265 kb) or read it below.

Climate change: Let’s ask the right question.

By Australia’s Chief Scientist Professor Ian Chubb

After his three recent articles on climate change, most recently in Wednesday’s Australian,  it is clear that Maurice Newman and I can agree on a number of things.  We can now agree, for example, that climate change is real, not a myth or a delusion.  We can agree that he is not a climate scientist; and we would agree that I am not one either.  We would, I think, agree that ‘climate’ is the result of complex interactions of multiple variables, many of them natural – but I would say not all.

We diverge when it comes to the impact of greenhouse gases.  While we agree that carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas, Maurice Newman wrote of ‘the myth of anthropological climate change’ and suggested that it is one in a list of popular delusions.

Others will doubtless address some of the details he has raised.  I start in a different place and ask a simple question. We have so far pumped two trillion tonnes of a greenhouse gas, CO2, into our atmosphere since the industrial revolution, at a rate faster than ever before.  Why would we presume that it would have no effect?

If the answer were simple, we would know it.  So we have to use the evidence we have to assess the impact now; and we have to use the data to build models to estimate what the impact might be in the future.

Right now we know that as CO2 levels in the atmosphere increase, so too does the amount of CO2 absorbed by the ocean – with the effect of making the water less alkaline (or more acid).  Why would we presume that would have no effect on marine life? We also know that the heat content of the oceans has increased consistently although the rise in atmospheric temperature recently is flatter. Why would we presume no effect on the currents, winds and evaporation and a subsequent impact on climate? We know the planet is warmer than pre-industrial times.  While some might dismiss this as just a few tenths (0.9°C) of a degree, I wonder if they’d be as sanguine if their core body temperature increased by the same few tenths of a degree.

There will be regional variations.  There are differences even within Australia: temperatures in some regions have increased by 2°C over 50 years while others have experienced little or no change.  Our average change is 0.7°C.

We know that greenhouse gases in the atmosphere are important.  If there were none, it has been estimated that the global temperature would be around -18°C rather than the average near 15°C we currently enjoy.

We also know that the relationship between CO2 and temperature is not linear.  Uncertainty about the sensitivity of the climate to changing CO2 means models yield different projections.  As an editorial in yesterday’s Nature opined: some have argued, in part on the basis of current temperature trends, that climate models tend to overestimate warming…but the evidence cuts both ways.   Some seem always to presume the errors only occur in the direction favourable to their argument. Notwithstanding the range, current models point out a direction, and the direction is up.

So we know that climate is a complex, complicated matter and that there are multiple variables.  Does that mean that we don’t use all the information we have to estimate what might be ahead? Does it mean that we do nothing about one variable over which we have some control – the emission of greenhouse gases?  Does it mean that because there are uncertainties we do nothing?

I am sure that Maurice Newman and I would agree that much of what should be a debate has turned into ‘low-grade’ and often personalised argument.  What it should be is a healthy and constructive discussion based on all the empirical evidence, not bits of it, with an eye to the implications for our health, well-being and prosperity in the longer term.
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lee
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Re: Climate change: Let’s ask the right question.
Reply #1 - Jan 18th, 2014 at 8:30pm
 
Yep, the alarmists do only look at it one way.

'with the effect of making the water less alkaline (or more acid). ' - Nope just less alkaline. To make it more acidic it needs to be acidic to start with.

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Re: Climate change: Let’s ask the right question.
Reply #2 - Jan 18th, 2014 at 8:54pm
 
lee wrote on Jan 18th, 2014 at 8:30pm:
Yep, the alarmists do only look at it one way.

'with the effect of making the water less alkaline (or more acid). ' - Nope just less alkaline. To make it more acidic it needs to be acidic to start with.



Humans have burnt about 3% of the total fossil fuel reserves in the earths crust - almost entirely within the industrial era.

As a result the atmospheric CO2 concentration has risen from about 285ppmv in the late 19th century to its present value of about 400ppmv.

Without even considering the numerous perilous and irreversible tipping points that a warming earth can trigger, WHAT level of atmospheric CO2 level would begin concern you?

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Re: Climate change: Let’s ask the right question.
Reply #3 - Jan 18th, 2014 at 9:47pm
 
lee wrote on Jan 18th, 2014 at 8:30pm:
Yep, the alarmists do only look at it one way.

'with the effect of making the water less alkaline (or more acid). ' - Nope just less alkaline. To make it more acidic it needs to be acidic to start with.


Don't f'n tell me we're doing year 11 chemistry now  Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked  Grin

Where is my asian buddy who used to do the rounds and headbut everyone while the teacher was setting up experiments: where are ya Chi, it's year 11 chemistry we've got on now buddy!!

  Grin Grin
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Re: Climate change: Let’s ask the right question.
Reply #4 - Jan 20th, 2014 at 1:20am
 
lee wrote on Jan 18th, 2014 at 8:30pm:
Yep, the alarmists do only look at it one way.




Bingo!

Closed-minded morons, as is clearly evinced in this thread (and any other on AGW).
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Re: Climate change: Let’s ask the right question.
Reply #5 - Jan 20th, 2014 at 1:21am
 
BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jan 18th, 2014 at 9:47pm:
lee wrote on Jan 18th, 2014 at 8:30pm:
Yep, the alarmists do only look at it one way.

'with the effect of making the water less alkaline (or more acid). ' - Nope just less alkaline. To make it more acidic it needs to be acidic to start with.


Don't f'n tell me we're doing year 11 chemistry now 



What would you know about year 11?


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Re: Climate change: Let’s ask the right question.
Reply #6 - Jan 20th, 2014 at 1:35am
 
greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 1:20am:
lee wrote on Jan 18th, 2014 at 8:30pm:
Yep, the alarmists do only look at it one way.




Bingo!

Closed-minded morons, as is clearly evinced in this thread (and any other on AGW).


Could you point out the closed minded comments for me please?
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greggerypeccary
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Re: Climate change: Let’s ask the right question.
Reply #7 - Jan 20th, 2014 at 1:38am
 
Setanta wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 1:35am:
greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 1:20am:
lee wrote on Jan 18th, 2014 at 8:30pm:
Yep, the alarmists do only look at it one way.




Bingo!

Closed-minded morons, as is clearly evinced in this thread (and any other on AGW).


Could you point out the closed minded comments for me please?




If you need them pointed out to you, you're beyond help.

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Re: Climate change: Let’s ask the right question.
Reply #8 - Jan 20th, 2014 at 1:45am
 
lee wrote on Jan 18th, 2014 at 8:30pm:
Yep, the alarmists do only look at it one way.

'with the effect of making the water less alkaline (or more acid). ' - Nope just less alkaline. To make it more acidic it needs to be acidic to start with.



Acid<-->Alkaline is a scale. How do you make something less alkaline? You add acid, carbonic in this case, the oceans are having acid added to them. I do understand your take on it but it may be better to look at it as the Ph level rather than acid/alkaline as it would do away with misconceptions. The Ph of the oceans is decreasing or H+ ion concentration is increasing and that is indisputable. Playing word games over it does nothing but obfuscate the argument.
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Setanta
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Re: Climate change: Let’s ask the right question.
Reply #9 - Jan 20th, 2014 at 1:47am
 
greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 1:38am:
Setanta wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 1:35am:
greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 1:20am:
lee wrote on Jan 18th, 2014 at 8:30pm:
Yep, the alarmists do only look at it one way.




Bingo!

Closed-minded morons, as is clearly evinced in this thread (and any other on AGW).


Could you point out the closed minded comments for me please?




If you need them pointed out to you, you're beyond help.



Humour me and point them out.
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Re: Climate change: Let’s ask the right question.
Reply #10 - Jan 20th, 2014 at 3:49am
 
greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 1:21am:
BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jan 18th, 2014 at 9:47pm:
lee wrote on Jan 18th, 2014 at 8:30pm:
Yep, the alarmists do only look at it one way.

'with the effect of making the water less alkaline (or more acid). ' - Nope just less alkaline. To make it more acidic it needs to be acidic to start with.


Don't f'n tell me we're doing year 11 chemistry now 



What would you know about year 11?



Chi used to bust my head open in chemistry class: very clear memories! ... Or was that year 12????  Grin
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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is.  It wouldn't be there without the tax payer.  Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know....  (swaggy) *
 
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Re: Climate change: Let’s ask the right question.
Reply #11 - Jan 20th, 2014 at 3:54am
 
Setanta wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 1:45am:
lee wrote on Jan 18th, 2014 at 8:30pm:
Yep, the alarmists do only look at it one way.

'with the effect of making the water less alkaline (or more acid). ' - Nope just less alkaline. To make it more acidic it needs to be acidic to start with.



Acid<-->Alkaline is a scale. How do you make something less alkaline? You add acid, carbonic in this case, the oceans are having acid added to them. I do understand your take on it but it may be better to look at it as the Ph level rather than acid/alkaline as it would do away with misconceptions. The Ph of the oceans is decreasing or H+ ion concentration is increasing and that is indisputable. Playing word games over it does nothing but obfuscate the argument.

Lee can't be half pregnant: if he has a point then it's best shared or surely unenlightenment reigns!

The kids man the kids!!!  Shocked
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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is.  It wouldn't be there without the tax payer.  Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know....  (swaggy) *
 
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Re: Climate change: Let’s ask the right question.
Reply #12 - Jan 20th, 2014 at 12:14pm
 
BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 3:49am:
greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 1:21am:
BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jan 18th, 2014 at 9:47pm:
lee wrote on Jan 18th, 2014 at 8:30pm:
Yep, the alarmists do only look at it one way.

'with the effect of making the water less alkaline (or more acid). ' - Nope just less alkaline. To make it more acidic it needs to be acidic to start with.


Don't f'n tell me we're doing year 11 chemistry now 



What would you know about year 11?



Chi used to bust my head open in chemistry class: very clear memories! ... Or was that year 12????  Grin


I received a PM saying that this wouldn't be all that difficult to achieve - do you have a thin skull or something?

I would have that looked at if I were you - we wouldn't want anything to happen to you now would we - especially seeing that you like riding horses
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Re: Climate change: Let’s ask the right question.
Reply #13 - Jan 20th, 2014 at 12:23pm
 
Wow....paid government climate alarmist stooge writes dopey opinion piece to help feather his ongoing tenure and tax payer funded salary.....and we are meant to take this as some sort of knock out punch to valid skeptical arguments  Grin Grin Grin Grin

Wake me up when you find the warming  Grin
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Re: Climate change: Let’s ask the right question.
Reply #14 - Jan 20th, 2014 at 12:44pm
 
Chimp_Logic wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 12:14pm:
BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 3:49am:
greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 1:21am:
BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jan 18th, 2014 at 9:47pm:
lee wrote on Jan 18th, 2014 at 8:30pm:
Yep, the alarmists do only look at it one way.

'with the effect of making the water less alkaline (or more acid). ' - Nope just less alkaline. To make it more acidic it needs to be acidic to start with.


Don't f'n tell me we're doing year 11 chemistry now 



What would you know about year 11?



Chi used to bust my head open in chemistry class: very clear memories! ... Or was that year 12????  Grin


I received a PM saying that this wouldn't be all that difficult to achieve - do you have a thin skull or something?

I would have that looked at if I were you - we wouldn't want anything to happen to you now would we - especially seeing that you like riding horses

Ha ha, apparently he was quite happy he got his black belt!

I think he was vietnamese but i learnt something in chemistry that year- distance!!

Memories ay!!!   Grin
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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is.  It wouldn't be there without the tax payer.  Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know....  (swaggy) *
 
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