Australian Politics Forum - Indonesia demands change to Australian policy

St George of the Garden Gold Member Offline http://tinyurl.com/n 3o8m2x Posts: 9809 Gender:	Re: Indonesia demands change to Australian policy Reply #45 - Jan 18^th, 2014 at 12:31pm Quote: Indonesia says it's sending a fourth Naval ship to patrol southern maritime borders, but they're aimed at asylum seeker boats.— George Roberts (@George_Roberts) January 17, 2014 I guess Indonesia is not going to “suck it up.” What next? Actual shooting?
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philperth2010

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Re: Indonesia demands change to Australian policy
Reply #46 - Jan 18^th, 2014 at 12:39pm

woody2014 wrote on Jan 18^th, 2014 at 12:00pm:

philperth2010 wrote on Jan 18^th, 2014 at 11:52am:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Jan 18^th, 2014 at 6:06am:

Okay, a few things about this...

Firstly, it is right for the Australian government to apologise for Navy and Customs vessels accidentally breaching Indonesian waters because it was just that - a mistake. Our vessels got incorrect information from the headquarters in Canberra, so it was an inadvertent breach and the apology is warranted.

My next point is that Indonesia's statement of intention to ramp up patrols to its south (our north) makes me laugh because currently they don't have any patrols to the south to my knowledge. They've all but admitted that the ex-RAN patrol boats we gave them are used in waters to Indonesia's north because that's where their greatest threats are. So I actually welcome their patrols to the south - maybe they'll actually do something about stopping these boats breaching OUR waters for once! We are not breaching Indonesia's sovereignty by returning Indonesian-flagged vessels to Indonesian waters as we have the right to refuse those vessels entry to our waters. We can't leave them to flounder in international waters, so returning them to Indonesian waters with lifejackets, fuel, etc is the responsible thing to do.

My last point is in regards to Indonesia's demands that Australia change one of its policies. The fact is that Indonesia has no right to even suggest Tony Abbott changes the toilet paper at Parliament House, let alone change a crucial policy that is becoming quite successful. If I was Abbott and I received that demand from the Indonesians, I would - in diplomatic-speak - tell them to respectfully bite me. They cannot dictate our policies to us any more than we can do that to them.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/national/angry-indonesia-demands-federal-g...

What a load of crap.....Does anyone really believe our navy did not know they where within 12 nautical miles of Indonesia on many separate occasions.....These vessels know exactly where they are at all times and this was not a mistake it was a deliberate breach of Indonesia's sovereignty.....If the Indonesian navy entered Australian waters to turn boats back the Conga Line would be outraged and demand retribution......Does anyone really believe the navy had no idea where it was operating???

Huh

Well if what you tripe is true Some navel officer need rooting They are responsible for their ships position......

Wink

Modern warships use ECDIS, an electronic chart display and information system which automatically plots the position of the ship with GPS.....The breach of Indonesian territorial water was not an accident and must have been authorised by the Australian Government.....To blame the navy as being incompetent is bullshit!!!

Angry

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Innocent bystander Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4220 Gender:	Re: Indonesia demands change to Australian policy Reply #47 - Jan 18^th, 2014 at 12:48pm The Indos had a nice little earner going there shipping fake refos to Australia while at the same time collecting billions from Rudd and Gillard to stop shipping fake reffos to Australia When it comes to foreign policy the left formulate it foremost on what the foreigners want.
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philperth2010

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Re: Indonesia demands change to Australian policy
Reply #48 - Jan 18^th, 2014 at 12:49pm

At sea level the distance over the horizon is roughly 3 nautical miles.....This can be increased depending on the height of the viewer, so a height of 60 feet above sea level would increase the viewing distance to roughly 9 nautical miles....Asylum seekers standing on the deck of the navy vessel could see the Indonesian coastline which would clearly put them well within Indonesia's territorial waters.....The facts do not support the bullshit this Government is feeding us!!!

Angry

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Innocent bystander

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Re: Indonesia demands change to Australian policy
Reply #49 - Jan 18^th, 2014 at 12:49pm

St George of the Garden wrote on Jan 18^th, 2014 at 12:31pm:

Quote:

Indonesia says it's sending a fourth Naval ship to patrol southern maritime borders, but they're aimed at asylum seeker boats.— George Roberts (@George_Roberts)

January 17, 2014

I guess Indonesia is not going to “suck it up.” What next? Actual shooting?

Now you're just being silly half ape / half Abbott man Grin

You lefties can put away your white flags, were not going to war with the Indos.

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woody2014

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Re: Indonesia demands change to Australian policy
Reply #50 - Jan 18^th, 2014 at 1:14pm

philperth2010 wrote on Jan 18^th, 2014 at 12:49pm:

At sea level the distance over the horizon is roughly 3 nautical miles.....This can be increased depending on the height of the viewer, so a height of 60 feet above sea level would increase the viewing distance to roughly 9 nautical miles....Asylum seekers standing on the deck of the navy vessel could see the Indonesian coastline which would clearly put them well within Indonesia's territorial waters.....The facts do not support the bullshit this Government is feeding us!!!

Angry

What Asylum seeker standing on what deck of an Ausssie ship 60ft above the water Grin

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THE DUMB LEFTIES ON THIS BOARD DONT KNOW IF THERE WINDING THEIR ARSE OR SCRATCHING THEIR WATCH

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philperth2010

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Re: Indonesia demands change to Australian policy
Reply #51 - Jan 18^th, 2014 at 1:27pm

woody2014 wrote on Jan 18^th, 2014 at 1:14pm:

philperth2010 wrote on Jan 18^th, 2014 at 12:49pm:

At sea level the distance over the horizon is roughly 3 nautical miles.....This can be increased depending on the height of the viewer, so a height of 60 feet above sea level would increase the viewing distance to roughly 9 nautical miles....Asylum seekers standing on the deck of the navy vessel could see the Indonesian coastline which would clearly put them well within Indonesia's territorial waters.....The facts do not support the bullshit this Government is feeding us!!!

Angry

What Asylum seeker standing on what deck of an Ausssie ship 60ft above the water Grin

The navy ship had GPS and would have known exactly where they where.....The deck of a ship is NOT 60ft above sea level......Meaning their is no way the navy did not know they where within Indonesia's 12 nautical mile limits when they could see the coastline.....Basic facts seam to elude you!!!

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Lobo

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Re: Indonesia demands change to Australian policy
Reply #52 - Jan 18^th, 2014 at 1:27pm

Armchair_Politician wrote on Jan 18^th, 2014 at 6:06am:

Okay, a few things about this...

Firstly, it is right for the Australian government to apologise for Navy and Customs vessels accidentally breaching Indonesian waters because it was just that - a mistake. Our vessels got incorrect information from the headquarters in Canberra, so it was an inadvertent breach and the apology is warranted.

FMD......
I have a $300 GPS that tracks my movement via 7 satellites to within 1 meter of my position.
I'm reasonably sure that the Navy's system is a tad more sophisticated than mine.

There is NO 'accidental or inadvertant breach' involved.

If 'Our vessels got incorrect information from the headquarters in Canberra', then some reorganization of that 'headquarters' is overdue.

I'd hate to imagine, AP, if 'incorrect information from the headquarters in Canberra' resulted in live ordinance being launched on your house just as you and your family were sitting down to dinner.

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woody2014

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Re: Indonesia demands change to Australian policy
Reply #53 - Jan 18^th, 2014 at 1:31pm

philperth2010 wrote on Jan 18^th, 2014 at 1:27pm:

woody2014 wrote on Jan 18^th, 2014 at 1:14pm:

philperth2010 wrote on Jan 18^th, 2014 at 12:49pm:

At sea level the distance over the horizon is roughly 3 nautical miles.....This can be increased depending on the height of the viewer, so a height of 60 feet above sea level would increase the viewing distance to roughly 9 nautical miles....Asylum seekers standing on the deck of the navy vessel could see the Indonesian coastline which would clearly put them well within Indonesia's territorial waters.....The facts do not support the bullshit this Government is feeding us!!!

Angry

What Asylum seeker standing on what deck of an Ausssie ship 60ft above the water Grin

The navy ship had GPS and would have known exactly where they where.....The deck of a ship is NOT 60ft above sea level......Meaning their is no way the navy did not know they where within Indonesia's 12 nautical mile limits when they could see the coastline.....Basic facts seam to elude you!!!

Asylum seekers standing on the deck of the navy vessel could see the Indonesian coastline which would c
Whats this crapp?

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THE DUMB LEFTIES ON THIS BOARD DONT KNOW IF THERE WINDING THEIR ARSE OR SCRATCHING THEIR WATCH

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Grappler Racist Filth

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Re: Indonesia demands change to Australian policy
Reply #54 - Jan 18^th, 2014 at 1:52pm

St George of the Garden wrote on Jan 18^th, 2014 at 12:03pm:

Great—so if we are really lucky Indo and Aust naval ships will fire on each other. Wonderful! So far we have descended in less than 6 months, my god!

Possible - not probable. But you never know, George.

What will Australian ships do if they see, for example, an Indonesian ship dong nasty things to a boat? I know the idea is that Indo is actually aiding and abetting these boats and their occupants - but how real is that.. really?

*flashes on Rwanda*

"Captain B, you are formally charged with a serious breach of the rules of engagement for a peacekeeping mission, namely that you engaged in what appear to be extended defensive actions against armed aggressors attacking civilians but not your men. What's the story here?"

"Quite simple, Sir! I clearly defined my perimeter and when armed aggressors intruded on that space I ordered defensive measures to protect my own people."

"Your perimeter was considerably larger than the area specified and took in a number of non-aggressor and unarmed civilians - why was that?"

"Tactical exigencies demanded that I extend my perimeter - there were several issues of dead zones in my defences that required me to move it out further so as to remove those dangers to my own troops, Sir!"

"Hmm - I'm not sure how the court martial will see this.... your troops fired on and killed a number of aggressors - clearly a breach of the rules of engagement UNLESS they were attacking YOU directly and had fired first. How do you explain that?"

"My perimeter was breached, Sir! I had no option other than to engage defensive measures! It was unfortunate that.. aggressors, as you describe them, sustained casualties as a result."

"But the civilians were safe?"

"Yes, Sir!"

"And you say this was NOT your primary consideration in opening fire?"

"Yes ,Sir - I DO say that. I ordered fire to defend my perimeter and my own troops! Protection of those civilians was incidental!"

"I... think, all things considered, you might be considering early retirement from the ADF, Captain.... but let me shake your hand."

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Aussie

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Re: Indonesia demands change to Australian policy
Reply #55 - Jan 18^th, 2014 at 2:01pm

Armchair_Politician wrote on Jan 18^th, 2014 at 6:23am:

cods wrote on Jan 18^th, 2014 at 6:19am:

tell then to SUCK IT UP.....what a bunch of kids.. people drowning on their watch as they are watching them leave their shores..

if they are watching our Navy then they cannot but fail to see whats leaving their own waters....

we are contending with enormous bush fires..

tell them to pick up their dummy and go and do what they should have been doing for years...watching their own coastline ...if these people are smuggling people out... you can bet they are smuggling people and other things in... Roll Eyes

That's the thing - they didn't even know about it until our government informed them. Indonesia would still be oblivious if Abbott's government had not said anything. He could have swept it under the rug (like Rudd did with the spying) but he has been open and honest about it the whole time.

How do you know that? How did we know we had been sprung to such and extent that high level grovelling was required?

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Aussie

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Re: Indonesia demands change to Australian policy
Reply #56 - Jan 18^th, 2014 at 2:09pm

woody2014 wrote on Jan 18^th, 2014 at 8:48am:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 18^th, 2014 at 8:34am:

viewpoint wrote on Jan 18^th, 2014 at 7:18am:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 18^th, 2014 at 7:16am:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Jan 18^th, 2014 at 7:04am:

progressiveslol wrote on Jan 18^th, 2014 at 6:52am:

Abbott is a genius to trick Indonesia into patrolling their own waters. They will have the obligation of picking up boats in destress and now we can push them to stop the boats.

+1000

They may provide fuel to Australian boats coming in and turn them around ???

Again we see weak disloyal Australians more than happy to push the blame for Indonesian weaselism on to their own government. Labrats you are a total disgrace to your country. God help this place if your duplicitous incompetent idols return to office, the country will be economically stuffed, more so than it was when the present government was elected to office, and which they have been forced to waste valuable resources on trying to return this place to viability.

For me it isn't about what Indonesia either do or don't do.

It is what Australia does.

For me deliberately breaching our agreements and illegally entering the waters of a foreign nation is unacceptable.

I expect Australian governments to act honestly , with integrity and legally.

I can except that you think this standard is too high.

I would be critical of a Labor government behaving is the same manor.

For me deliberately breaching our agreements and illegally entering the waters of a foreign nation is unacceptable.

So now it was DELIBERATE YOU TWAT Angry

It was no accident. At all times, I know with a couple of metres exactly where the Cabs are, and even what speed they are travelling at and in which direction they are moving. I can see them moving. I can do this from right here on the PC. You trying to tell me our formal maritime ships do not have a much more sophisticated and accurate system than the pissy one I have to track a Taxi?

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Ex Dame Pansi

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Re: Indonesia demands change to Australian policy
Reply #57 - Jan 18^th, 2014 at 3:39pm

Aussie wrote on Jan 18^th, 2014 at 2:09pm:

It was no accident.

"AUSTRALIAN Navy and Customs vessels trespassed several kilometres into Indonesian waters up to seven times"

Seven times!....operation sovereign clown act.

The Indonesian fishing boats can get to Christmas Island with probably not much more than a $2 compass and our navy doesn't know its position on the high seas....laughable Grin

It was no accident, surely there isn't a navy on earth that could be that stupid.

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andrei said: Great isn't it? Seeing boatloads of what is nothing more than human garbage turn up.....

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Dnarever

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Re: Indonesia demands change to Australian policy
Reply #58 - Jan 18^th, 2014 at 3:46pm

Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Jan 18^th, 2014 at 10:59am:

a) This sounds remarkably like the Vincennes - accidentally wandered out of international waters... with modern nav aids how do you do that? At least the Vincennes had the excuse that it was under attack/engaged in combat and needed to make whatever sea room it needed.

b) I'm at a bit of a disadvantage here - HOW did these Australian ships 'wander' into Indonesian waters? TF were they doing? Chasing pirates? Rescuing people inside Indo waters?

c) IF it was that last - I agree - bring on the Indo patrols.

d) If we - Australia Corporate - refuse to 'alter our policy' - what will Indo do? Stop the planes to Bali?

I'm at a bit of a disadvantage here - HOW did these Australian ships 'wander' into Indonesian waters?

I suspect that they were taking people to Indonesia.

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skippy.

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Re: Indonesia demands change to Australian policy
Reply #59 - Jan 18^th, 2014 at 3:54pm

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jan 18^th, 2014 at 3:39pm:

Aussie wrote on Jan 18^th, 2014 at 2:09pm:

It was no accident.

"AUSTRALIAN Navy and Customs vessels trespassed several kilometres into Indonesian waters up to seven times"

Seven times!....operation sovereign clown act.

The Indonesian fishing boats can get to Christmas Island with probably not much more than a $2 compass and our navy doesn't know its position on the high seas....laughable Grin

It was no accident, surely there isn't a navy on earth that could be that stupid.

Great point, the government and the conga line are saying our navy are dumbass clowns and can't read a compass. I prefer to believe our government are lying ankles that need to be removed ASAP. Maintain the rage comrades.

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