Australian Politics Forum - The Anti-Marriage Equality Lobby (latest news)

greggerypeccary

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Re: The Anti-Marriage Equality Lobby (latest news)
Reply #30 - Jan 9^th, 2014 at 10:21pm

Soren wrote on Jan 9^th, 2014 at 10:18pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 9^th, 2014 at 10:13pm:

Nero had at least two husbands .

The idea that it's always been a "heterosexual institution" is naive to the extreme.

So a mad fvckn emperor, executed for being a mad fvcker, is your argument to counter millennia of normal heterosexual custom?

It's simply one example that proves beyond all doubt that you are wrong.

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Soren

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Re: The Anti-Marriage Equality Lobby (latest news)
Reply #31 - Jan 9^th, 2014 at 10:28pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 9^th, 2014 at 10:21pm:

Soren wrote on Jan 9^th, 2014 at 10:18pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 9^th, 2014 at 10:13pm:

Nero had at least two husbands .

The idea that it's always been a "heterosexual institution" is naive to the extreme.

So a mad fvckn emperor, executed for being a mad fvcker, is your argument to counter millennia of normal heterosexual custom?

It's simply one example that proves beyond all doubt that you are wrong.

So when was 'mad fvckn emperors (an anyone else) can henceforth marry two blokes' institutionalised for all times to come, bozo?

It's not enough to be arrogant, pr!ck, you need to have a case as well.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: The Anti-Marriage Equality Lobby (latest news)
Reply #32 - Jan 9^th, 2014 at 10:33pm

Soren wrote on Jan 9^th, 2014 at 10:28pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 9^th, 2014 at 10:21pm:

Soren wrote on Jan 9^th, 2014 at 10:18pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 9^th, 2014 at 10:13pm:

Nero had at least two husbands .

The idea that it's always been a "heterosexual institution" is naive to the extreme.

So a mad fvckn emperor, executed for being a mad fvcker, is your argument to counter millennia of normal heterosexual custom?

It's simply one example that proves beyond all doubt that you are wrong.

So when was 'mad fvckn emperors (an anyone else) can henceforth marry two blokes' institutionalised for all times to come, bozo?

Who said it was?

(anyone else notice that when Soren loses an argument, his posts get less intelligible?)

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greggerypeccary Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 156492 Gender:	Re: The Anti-Marriage Equality Lobby (latest news) Reply #33 - Jan 9^th, 2014 at 10:47pm Anyone else also notice that whenever Soren loses an argument, he goes offline? Funny that. You're a pussy, Soren.
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gizmo_2655

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Re: The Anti-Marriage Equality Lobby (latest news)
Reply #34 - Jan 9^th, 2014 at 11:35pm

Soren wrote on Jan 9^th, 2014 at 9:06pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 9^th, 2014 at 7:36pm:

Soren wrote on Jan 9^th, 2014 at 10:18am:

Marriage is a heterosexual institution.

No, it's not. It's a human institution, but it's only been considered a heterosexual one for the last several hundred years.

And all of the other versions you mention have existed at some point in history.....except possibly for the 'promise never to have sex' one..

Would you mind telling us where you got this load of bollocks from?
Surely not something you have just made up, in a fit of pique, surely!!!

From history...
Before the start of the Christian Church, most cultures had same-sex marriages as well a heterosexual marriages. Marriage was more about uniting wealth and property than it was about having offspring, and was pretty much limited to the wealthier classes.
Even after the beginnings of Christianity, the Church didn't much care about weddings, they were purely a civil ceremony, that conformed to the local laws.
Marriage ceremonies couldn't even take place IN a church until the 12th century, and the requirement for witnesses and an officiating priest didn't come in until 1563.

Add to that, there was a same sex marriage ceremony used by the Catholic Church during the 10th-13th centuries.

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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Datalife

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Re: The Anti-Marriage Equality Lobby (latest news)
Reply #35 - Jan 9^th, 2014 at 11:43pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 9^th, 2014 at 11:35pm:

Add to that, there was a same sex marriage ceremony used by the Catholic Church during the 10th-13th centuries.

I have never heard about that, the gay lobby should have been all over that like white on rice. So what are you talking about and some sort of reference and expansion would be nice.

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gizmo_2655

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Re: The Anti-Marriage Equality Lobby (latest news)
Reply #36 - Jan 10^th, 2014 at 12:19am

Datalife wrote on Jan 9^th, 2014 at 11:43pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 9^th, 2014 at 11:35pm:

Add to that, there was a same sex marriage ceremony used by the Catholic Church during the 10th-13th centuries.

I have never heard about that, the gay lobby should have been all over that like white on rice. So what are you talking about and some sort of reference and expansion would be nice.

Not really surprising you haven't heard of it. It was most likely a carry over from the old Roman Empire laws, or possibly even something to do inheritance laws (for the Order for Uniting Two Men). However, it's not really something the Church would want advertised in recent times.
Same as they don't like to let people know that Jesus' mother wasn't declared a 'Perpetual Virgin' until 649 AD, and they tend to gloss over the existence of Jesus' brothers and sisters..

"Prof. John Boswell, the late Chairman of Yale University’s history department, discovered that in addition to heterosexual marriage ceremonies in ancient Christian church liturgical documents, there were also ceremonies called the 'Office of Same-Sex Union' (10th and 11th century), and the 'Order for Uniting Two Men' (11th and 12th century)."

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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... Gold Member Offline Posts: 23673 WA Gender:	Re: The Anti-Marriage Equality Lobby (latest news) Reply #37 - Jan 10^th, 2014 at 7:55am Quote: Boswell died of complications from AIDS in the Yale infirmary[16] in New Haven, Connecticut, on December 24, 1994, at age 47. lol. Looks like this sinner was just trying to outsmart the man at the pearly gates.
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Soren

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Re: The Anti-Marriage Equality Lobby (latest news)
Reply #38 - Jan 10^th, 2014 at 10:37am

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 10^th, 2014 at 12:19am:

Datalife wrote on Jan 9^th, 2014 at 11:43pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 9^th, 2014 at 11:35pm:

Add to that, there was a same sex marriage ceremony used by the Catholic Church during the 10th-13th centuries.

I have never heard about that, the gay lobby should have been all over that like white on rice. So what are you talking about and some sort of reference and expansion would be nice.

Not really surprising you haven't heard of it. It was most likely a carry over from the old Roman Empire laws, or possibly even something to do inheritance laws (for the Order for Uniting Two Men). However, it's not really something the Church would want advertised in recent times.

Don't be soo stupid. This was not 'same-sex marriage', it was a ceremony of brother-making.

Boswell tried to twist it into proto-homo-marriage but of course couldn't because it had nothing whatsoever to do with marriage.

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« Last Edit: Jan 10^th, 2014 at 10:52am by Soren »

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gizmo_2655

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Re: The Anti-Marriage Equality Lobby (latest news)
Reply #39 - Jan 10^th, 2014 at 11:02am

Soren wrote on Jan 10^th, 2014 at 10:37am:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 10^th, 2014 at 12:19am:

Datalife wrote on Jan 9^th, 2014 at 11:43pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 9^th, 2014 at 11:35pm:

Add to that, there was a same sex marriage ceremony used by the Catholic Church during the 10th-13th centuries.

I have never heard about that, the gay lobby should have been all over that like white on rice. So what are you talking about and some sort of reference and expansion would be nice.

Not really surprising you haven't heard of it. It was most likely a carry over from the old Roman Empire laws, or possibly even something to do inheritance laws (for the Order for Uniting Two Men). However, it's not really something the Church would want advertised in recent times.

Don't be soo stupid. This was not 'same-sex marriage', it was a ceremony of brother-making.

Boswell tried to twist it into proto-homo-marriage but of course couldn't because it had nothing whatsoever to do with marriage.

Which one?? the 'Office of Same-Sex Union' or the 'Order for Uniting Two Men'??

And, incidentally, WHY would the Church even have a ceremony of 'brother-making'???

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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Datalife Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2405 Gender:	Re: The Anti-Marriage Equality Lobby (latest news) Reply #40 - Jan 10^th, 2014 at 11:29am gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 10^th, 2014 at 12:19am: Not really surprising you haven't heard of it. Well yeah, that's what I said. So are you going to provide a reference at all? Something that I can look up or are you the only source of this bit of history?
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Soren

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Re: The Anti-Marriage Equality Lobby (latest news)
Reply #41 - Jan 10^th, 2014 at 11:48am

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 10^th, 2014 at 11:02am:

Soren wrote on Jan 10^th, 2014 at 10:37am:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 10^th, 2014 at 12:19am:

Datalife wrote on Jan 9^th, 2014 at 11:43pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 9^th, 2014 at 11:35pm:

Add to that, there was a same sex marriage ceremony used by the Catholic Church during the 10th-13th centuries.

I have never heard about that, the gay lobby should have been all over that like white on rice. So what are you talking about and some sort of reference and expansion would be nice.

Not really surprising you haven't heard of it. It was most likely a carry over from the old Roman Empire laws, or possibly even something to do inheritance laws (for the Order for Uniting Two Men). However, it's not really something the Church would want advertised in recent times.

Don't be soo stupid. This was not 'same-sex marriage', it was a ceremony of brother-making.

Boswell tried to twist it into proto-homo-marriage but of course couldn't because it had nothing whatsoever to do with marriage.

Which one?? the 'Office of Same-Sex Union' or the 'Order for Uniting Two Men'??

And, incidentally, WHY would the Church even have a ceremony of 'brother-making'???

Delphys - womb,
Adelphos = 'together in the womb', brother, Adam, Adolf (!)
Adelphopoiesis (Order for Uniting Two Men)
Philadephia (the city of 'brotherly love', an early pilgrim city)
Christadelphians, Christian Brethren
Brotherhood of man

Brotherhood. Two men together are BROTHERS. The Church was interested in spiritual brotherhood, also known as adelphopoiesis. Comes from this: John 13:34-35 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

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gizmo_2655

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Re: The Anti-Marriage Equality Lobby (latest news)
Reply #42 - Jan 10^th, 2014 at 11:50am

Datalife wrote on Jan 10^th, 2014 at 11:29am:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 10^th, 2014 at 12:19am:

Not really surprising you haven't heard of it.

Well yeah, that's what I said. So are you going to provide a reference at all? Something that I can look up or are you the only source of this bit of history?

I did, but if you like:
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/1979boswell.asp

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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Datalife

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Re: The Anti-Marriage Equality Lobby (latest news)
Reply #43 - Jan 10^th, 2014 at 12:02pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 10^th, 2014 at 11:50am:

Datalife wrote on Jan 10^th, 2014 at 11:29am:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 10^th, 2014 at 12:19am:

Not really surprising you haven't heard of it.

Well yeah, that's what I said. So are you going to provide a reference at all? Something that I can look up or are you the only source of this bit of history?

I did, but if you like:
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/1979boswell.asp

Well I read your source and there was nothing in there about a same sex marriage ceremony used by the Catholic Church.

See, this is why I wanted to see what you are looking at and basing your assertion on. Do you have any reference for your claim?

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"If they’re out there in the high seas, what you would do is seek to turn them back through the agency of the Australian Navy".

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greggerypeccary

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Re: The Anti-Marriage Equality Lobby (latest news)
Reply #44 - Jan 10^th, 2014 at 12:18pm

Datalife wrote on Jan 10^th, 2014 at 12:02pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 10^th, 2014 at 11:50am:

Datalife wrote on Jan 10^th, 2014 at 11:29am:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 10^th, 2014 at 12:19am:

Not really surprising you haven't heard of it.

Well yeah, that's what I said. So are you going to provide a reference at all? Something that I can look up or are you the only source of this bit of history?

I did, but if you like:
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/1979boswell.asp

Well I read your source and there was nothing in there about a same sex marriage ceremony used by the Catholic Church.

See, this is why I wanted to see what you are looking at and basing your assertion on. Do you have any reference for your claim?

Read a book or two.

http://www.amazon.com/Same-Sex-Unions-Premodern-Europe-Boswell/dp/0679751645?tag...

"Both highly praised and intensely controversial, this brilliant book produces dramatic evidence that at one time the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches not only sanctioned unions between partners of the same sex, but sanctified them--in ceremonies strikingly similar to heterosexual marriage ceremonies."

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