Australian Politics Forum - How Many Australians Are Living In Poverty.

John Smith

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Re: How Many Australians Are Living In Poverty.
Reply #45 - Jan 5^th, 2014 at 11:10am

Swagman wrote on Jan 5^th, 2014 at 10:28am:

John Smith wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 2:49pm:

Swagman wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 1:21pm:

John Smith wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 12:01pm:

Swagman wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 9:05am:

Yes and as it's now 2014 so even the youngest child would now be at least 24 years old so nobody should be living in poverty....

that doesn't make your comment any more correct .. it was wrong before your pissy excuse, and its wrong after it.

What pissy excuse would you be referring to?

It was Bob Hawke's words not mine. I guess Bob was indeed 'pissy' plenty of times so you're half right.

what excuse? 'that they would now be 24yrs old' ... you were wrong when accredited Hawke with saying no one will live in poverty, and no attempts at muddying the waters by you will change that

Sorry Smithy I forgot that it takes a degree of perceptiveness to work out that the children Hawke was referring to would no longer be children...

and it takes an even greater degree of perceptiveness to understand the difference between 'no child will live in poverty' and 'no one will live in poverty',

get back to me when you figure out the difference.

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John Smith

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Re: How Many Australians Are Living In Poverty.
Reply #46 - Jan 5^th, 2014 at 11:12am

Swagman wrote on Jan 5^th, 2014 at 10:41am:

It's ok to steal from the guy next door just because he works harder and earns more?

why do you assoiate wealth with work? Most of the 'rich' haven't worked any harder than most other people, they simply had a better head start ...

its easy to make a million when daddy gives you a couple million to kick start your life.

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viewpoint

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Re: How Many Australians Are Living In Poverty.
Reply #47 - Jan 5^th, 2014 at 11:18am

And how much has it cost Australia to get the climate change scientists back from being stuck in the "melting" ice? How much has it cost to get that Greenpeace idiot and his buddies back from Russia?

Yes how many Australians are UNNECESSARILY living in poverty?

Maybe these costs could have helped a few who are enduring hardship.

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Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
- Sir Winston Churchill

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Swagman

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Re: How Many Australians Are Living In Poverty.
Reply #48 - Jan 5^th, 2014 at 11:27am

John Smith wrote on Jan 5^th, 2014 at 11:12am:

Swagman wrote on Jan 5^th, 2014 at 10:41am:

It's ok to steal from the guy next door just because he works harder and earns more?

why do you assoiate wealth with work? Most of the 'rich' haven't worked any harder than most other people, they simply had a better head start ...

its easy to make a million when daddy gives you a couple million to kick start your life.

...and where did daddy get it from? Somewhere along the line someone took a risk and / or worked damned hard to accumulate their wealth.

Some people are born with wealth, true. So what? Lucky them. Doesn't mean others can steal it with petty jealousy.

John Smith wrote on Jan 5^th, 2014 at 11:10am:

and it takes an even greater degree of perceptiveness to understand the difference between 'no child will live in poverty' and 'no one will live in poverty', get back to me when you figure out the difference.

Besides the obvious fact that any child alive in 1990 is now not a child you mean?

Do children live by themselves? No. They have to live with someone don't they? So unless no one that they live with is in poverty, you cannot say that no child will live in poverty. Therefore by saying no child will live in poverty it is in effect saying no one will live in poverty.

Of course it depends on how you define poverty.

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John Smith

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Re: How Many Australians Are Living In Poverty.
Reply #49 - Jan 5^th, 2014 at 11:43am

Swagman wrote on Jan 5^th, 2014 at 11:27am:

...and where did daddy get it from? Somewhere along the line someone took a risk and / or worked damned hard to accumulate their wealth.Some people are born with wealth, true. So what? Lucky them. Doesn't mean others can steal it with petty jealousy.

I didn't say that ... it however makes this statement Swagman wrote on Jan 5^th, 2014 at 10:41am:

It's ok to steal from the guy next door just because he works harder and earns more?

a load of bull ... you have no way of knowing if the guy next door has even worked a day in his life.

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Dnarever Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 62350 Here Gender:	Re: How Many Australians Are Living In Poverty. Reply #50 - Jan 5^th, 2014 at 11:45am How Many Australians Are Living In Poverty. Too many but not as many as there will be when Tony and his various mates are finished.
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John Smith

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Re: How Many Australians Are Living In Poverty.
Reply #51 - Jan 5^th, 2014 at 11:46am

Swagman wrote on Jan 5^th, 2014 at 11:27am:

Besides the obvious fact that any child alive in 1990 is now not a child you mean?

how is that relevant to your comment? You accredited Hawke of saying 'no one will live in poverty' ... he didn't ... accept that you got caught bullsh1tting and stop making pathetic excuses

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Sparky Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1338 Gender:	Re: How Many Australians Are Living In Poverty. Reply #52 - Jan 5^th, 2014 at 11:50am When a car costs $60 to fill while many people are earning $550 a week it gives you some idea how badly many people are going. Registering a car is a week and a half wages for many people. Rent is most of their pay. The list goes on. Unless you are earing a $1000 a week you will struggle.
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John Smith

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Re: How Many Australians Are Living In Poverty.
Reply #53 - Jan 5^th, 2014 at 11:52am

Sparky wrote on Jan 5^th, 2014 at 11:50am:

When a car costs $60 to fill while many people are earning $550 a week it gives you some idea how badly many people are going. Registering a car is a week and a half wages for many people. Rent is most of their pay. The list goes on. Unless you are earing a $1000 a week you will struggle.

what are you talking about? Andrei earns $4000 week and still struggles .... but then again, he's an accountant.

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Swagman

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Re: How Many Australians Are Living In Poverty.
Reply #54 - Jan 5^th, 2014 at 12:11pm

John Smith wrote on Jan 5^th, 2014 at 11:46am:

Swagman wrote on Jan 5^th, 2014 at 11:27am:

Besides the obvious fact that any child alive in 1990 is now not a child you mean?

how is that relevant to your comment? You accredited Hawke of saying 'no one will live in poverty' ... he didn't ... accept that you got caught bullsh1tting and stop making pathetic excuses

- it is in effect the same statement, why? refer reply #48

John Smith wrote on Jan 5^th, 2014 at 11:43am:

a load of bull ... you have no way of knowing if the guy next door has even worked a day in his life

....don't you talk to your neighbours ?

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Sophia

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Re: How Many Australians Are Living In Poverty.
Reply #55 - Jan 5^th, 2014 at 12:11pm

John Smith wrote on Jan 5^th, 2014 at 11:10am:

and it takes an even greater degree of perceptiveness to understand the difference between 'no child will live in poverty' and 'no one will live in poverty'

Now John, you're getting it more refined of what I had thought Bob Hawke really meant at the time. I was stunned by that statement, I can remember it clearly, it just stopped me in my tracks, and thought, well, my babies will be children by the time they get to the 1990's, so they won't be in living in poverty eh?
I said to the husband with tongue in cheek when it was announced and thought some key words were not included..."No, the child won't be in poverty ... alone... but the whole family of that child will be".

So for a 'child' not to be in poverty, means that the whole family must not be in poverty either.

But as we all know, more people lost their businesses, houses and shirts during that.

And it was Malcolm Fraser, as he was doing his farewell speech and exiting as PM, did warn us, that our money would be safer if we put it under a mattress.
(something to that effect, just going by memory here rather than exact words....(writes note to self, to google it later) .... )
Then of course, all the collapses of Pyramid, and One-Tel etc etc...and ta ta people's money. I know of some that lost $300,000 they had placed temporarily in there, until they could buy a shop to support and work for themselves.
And thinking, they were safe, being Kerry Packer's son etc.

Yes, I went through the 'recession we were meant to have' and it was a dark and horrible time, the 1990's.
1991 June, interest rates were a whopping 17% or thereabouts, by December that same year, it plummeted down to 8%....the economy was so bad, and every 2nd house by then had mortgagee sale on it, and just about every 2nd and 3rd shop was empty.
And many of my gen, are never going to trust any bank or government ever again to want to go into debt.

But, the wheel keeps turning, and a new gen comes on to the scene......here we go again.
Do we learn from other's pasts, will the "child" that was a child not meant to be in poverty, actually mean, will be in poverty by the time they are old enough to leave school and work and to try and survive in the jungle?

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Swagman

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Re: How Many Australians Are Living In Poverty.
Reply #56 - Jan 5^th, 2014 at 12:33pm

Kat wrote on Jan 5^th, 2014 at 11:06am:

Swagman wrote on Jan 5^th, 2014 at 10:41am:

Bam wrote on Jan 4^th, 2014 at 12:24pm:

Swagman wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 1:32pm:

It's funny but it's true.

The top 25 per cent of income earners pay 67.9 per cent of net income tax. (Source ATO 2010-2011 Tax stats)

Arguably, the top 25% are "Abbott and his ilk"

They pay the most tax because they also hold most of the wealth. According to the ABS, the top 20% have 60.8% of the wealth and the bottom 60% only hold 18% of total net worth.

So what's your point?

It's ok to steal from the guy next door just because he works harder and earns more?

If you work hard and earn more you will accumulate wealth. If you don't you won't. That's why the 'gap' between rich and poor widens.

The more the so-called rich earn the better off the mob is because it can steal more.

It's not in the Mob's interest to kill the golden goose but it certainly tries with its petty politics of envy.

Ensuring that the well-off pay their fair share of tax, and ensuring that the most disadvantaged get an ADEQUATE amount of assistance, is NOT 'stealing'.

Never was, never will be.

A fair share is an equal share.

Taking money off any one under duress is robbery unless the mob make it legal.

Always has and always will be.

Kat wrote on Jan 5^th, 2014 at 11:06am:

Why do you begrudge anything to anyone but the already well-off, Swagman? It seems to be a constant theme in your posts.

You've previously posted that you volunteer in a bike shop? You do it freely and for no payment by choice.

Would it be right for the Govt to make some one else do that job for no payment whatsoever against their will?

Your actions are charitable.

The latter example would be slavery. Being made to work for nothing by force is slavery.

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ensuring that the most disadvantaged get an ADEQUATE amount of assistance

One can choose to provide monetary assistance for this to happen. That is charity.

If the Govt garnisheers your wages against your will and by force to redistribute it for that same purpose, that is theft. In effect such a person is being forced to work for part of the time for no payment and is therefore a slave.

The theme of many of my posts is therefore one of personal liberty. Sad

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John Smith

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Re: How Many Australians Are Living In Poverty.
Reply #57 - Jan 5^th, 2014 at 12:36pm

Swagman wrote on Jan 5^th, 2014 at 12:11pm:

- it is in effect the same statement, why? refer reply #48

in effect, a load of bollocks why? because you are full of crap. The statements are different. Accept it and move on.

Swagman wrote on Jan 5^th, 2014 at 12:11pm:

don't you talk to your neighbours ?

it's painful, she speaks no 'Engrish' and I speak no Korean.

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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 78311 Gender:	Re: How Many Australians Are Living In Poverty. Reply #58 - Jan 5^th, 2014 at 12:41pm Sophia wrote on Jan 5^th, 2014 at 12:11pm: Now John, you're getting it more refined of what I had thought Bob Hawke really meant at the time. There is no refinment, and what you thought he said is irrelevant. He said what he said. It's on the video on the previous page if you want to hear it again.
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Bam

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Re: How Many Australians Are Living In Poverty.
Reply #59 - Jan 5^th, 2014 at 12:44pm

Swagman wrote on Jan 5^th, 2014 at 10:41am:

Bam wrote on Jan 4^th, 2014 at 12:24pm:

Swagman wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 1:32pm:

It's funny but it's true.

The top 25 per cent of income earners pay 67.9 per cent of net income tax. (Source ATO 2010-2011 Tax stats)

Arguably, the top 25% are "Abbott and his ilk"

They pay the most tax because they also hold most of the wealth. According to the ABS, the top 20% have 60.8% of the wealth and the bottom 60% only hold 18% of total net worth.

So what's your point?

People pay their fair share of tax. What's your point?

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It's ok to steal from the guy next door just because he works harder and earns more?

This "stealing" crap is a rubbish argument. One may as well say that the rich got rich in the first place by stealing their wealth from others, or by being greedy and helping themselves to extra from the pie while others go without.

The "hard work" argument is a furphy. Someone who is earning 20 times the average income is not working 20 times as hard.

Quote:

If you work hard and earn more you will accumulate wealth. If you don't you won't. That's why the 'gap' between rich and poor widens.

No, that's a lie - the gap widens because the rich have more idle money that is available for investment (investment trading is taxed only lightly, eg: capital gains tax), whereas someone raising a family on an average income has to spend most of their money. Who can afford to buy shares when the kids need new shoes and the car needs maintenance?

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You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to hold opinions that you can defend through sound, reasoned argument.

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