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How Many Australians Are Living In Poverty. (Read 12003 times)
Bam
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Re: How Many Australians Are Living In Poverty.
Reply #150 - Jan 10th, 2014 at 7:04am
 
Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Jan 9th, 2014 at 9:50pm:
MORE:-  More people owning their own homes means a lesser burden on social security at the end of the day.

As many say -  there is NO mortgage relief for the property OWNER/OCCUPIER - there is for the investor, so what this means is a double whammy - the taxpayer - or in this case the owner-occupier - subsidises the tax relief of the investor - the investor removes owner-occupier properties from the market with too easy money from stupid banks - meaning more potential owner-occupiers will rent - and will thus be a burden on the social security net.

So - tell me again why a 'strong' government will not move in and control this market totally - housing costs, rentals, loans and so forth - in order to save the country from itself, of course.  Add in the jobs market, wages, and so forth - same deal to bring sanity to the current insanity.

And - once again - the majority of those without will cheer and applaud such moves..... as they did in Nazi-controlled Germany.

Your choice - continue or one day some 'strong' government of either the 'left' or the 'right' - either of which I deem 'socio-fascist' -will take over and run the show for you - and we already see the beginnings of this right now, and I don;t mean anything as puerile as 'Tony Abbott's government' - it is an overall illness of government, not a party thing.

THAT is why I am here.. and that is why I am so outspoken against so many things.  I simply do not trust any such 'government' to do right in any way, and it matters not one whit which 'side' they are on.

Mortgage inequity in Australia is just about the highest in the developed world.

Investment property? Sure! Here! Have bags of free money!

You're living in the property? Get lost! There's no money for you!

It's a similar situation in the welfare system. Renters get rent assistance. People with a mortgage get no help at all.

Palmer's party includes some mortgage relief in the form of tax deductions. Palmer's scheme is too generous because it is uncapped and is silent on how it is to be funded.

Nevertheless it should be possible to fund some sensible tax deductions for having a mortgage if money is taken from elsewhere. Some relief is also needed for owner-occupiers on welfare, either by giving them access to something similar to rent assistance, or at the very least creating a loan scheme.

The first place where money is available is negative gearing. It's a rort. Get rid of it. Instead, treat the property like a business. Carry forward losses against future profits including the sale of the property, but any losses are no longer tax deductible against other income except any residual losses that remain after the property is sold.

Another policy that leaks huge amounts of tax is the concessional rate of negative gearing. It's not in the national interest to retain this. Concessional rates of tax should not be permitted unless national interest can be demonstrated. This is not possible for trading in existing properties - especially when considering that any properties that are sold at a loss are tax deductible at full value of that loss. Why should other taxpayers pay for property speculation? Bring back the full rate of tax for existing properties.

We can also look at the tax breaks for families. Too much is given out just for having kids. Nothing is given out for having kids and a mortgage. We can cut these benefits and redirect some of the money to families who have a mortgage. Families with mortgages will then be better off. Families who own their own home outright will get less money, but without a mortgage they don't actually need the money.

Make mortgage interest tax-deductible for owner occupiers that is capped at repayments of $10,000 per year with the actual subsidy being equal to the applicable marginal tax rate on this amount of money.
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Re: How Many Australians Are Living In Poverty.
Reply #151 - Jan 10th, 2014 at 10:02am
 
Bam wrote on Jan 10th, 2014 at 6:20am:
Sophia wrote on Jan 8th, 2014 at 10:04pm:
Sir lastnail wrote on Jan 7th, 2014 at 3:16pm:
The real welfare recipients are the people who hoard and speculate in property and the people on the dole are just the conduit to deliver the welfare to them Sad Go figure


It goes round and round doesn't it? Those that receive welfare and rent assistance, pay rent, then whomever it is that receives the rent (property owner)....puts their income tax in, and pays tax on that money they receive, hence, that tax money paid, goes back to those that receive welfare and rent assitance that are paying rent.

The trouble is, they don't.

Negative gearing is one of the biggest rorts in the taxation system. It sucks out huge amounts of money from the taxation system. It should be abolished by popular opinion. Keating did abolish it in the 1980s but had to bring it back under pressure from the real estate lobby. No government since has had the guts to take on the real estate lobby to get rid of this permanently.

Another way that property owners don't pay their way is if they sell the property. The profit they get - capital gains - is only taxed at half the rate of someone who earns the same amount of money by working for it. Keating had it right when he taxed capital gains at full value, thus bringing equality to the tax system, but Costello reduced this to half for no other reason than to line the pockets of the idle rich at every one else's expense.


Negative gearing is to help someone with a tax paying job already, to lower their tax by claiming extras, that is what all the seminars were about, for the ordinary Joe Bloggs to create their own tax relief, I thought it was always a bit of a risk if one lost their job, though.
I never liked negative gearing for us, it never worked for us, as we wanted positive gearing, as a form of generating our income, but of course, this was only possible as houses were reasonably priced end 1990's and early 2000's.

Paying tax on 50% the capital gains on a residential investment is only applicable after you have owned the property for 12 months, otherwise, under 12 months, you pay 100% tax on the capital gains.

There is another way for people to make money on the profit of a house, 100% tax free.....if you are the owner occupier...and lived in your abode for 12 months, then if you sell, and profit, you get it tax free 100%.

I recall people that used to do this, live in a place that needed doing up, they would improve it whilst living in it, then sell it for a profit tax free, and move onto the next place. And one can still do that if they wish, but depends on the area and what the property market is doing.

Another rule to remember, is, that if someone lives on a property, more than 5 acres (lets say 10-30 acres)...the rest of that property after the initial homestead and 5 acres, is then classified to come under captial gains tax conditions. So you need a valuer to consider the current market price for the rest of the acreage, unless of course, you have lived on that property for 20 years, then you don't have to pay a calculated capital gains tax on the acreage after that first 5 acres.

Oh, and one more thing, if someone has a business based in their own home, no they can't claim the mortgage, but they can claim other expenses like a percentage of electricity and telephone and internet, and office expenditure. And if travelling is required, (say mechanical services that need parts finding or a hairdresser needing to buy products to stock her home based salon etc) the kms need to be recorded and you can claim so many cents per km you travel.


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« Last Edit: Jan 10th, 2014 at 10:08am by Sophia »  
 
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Grappler Racist Filth
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Re: How Many Australians Are Living In Poverty.
Reply #152 - Jan 10th, 2014 at 10:30am
 
Actually his is a great conversation and draws out many views - haven't heard from the "I'm fully retired on my property investments but pay no income tax and have no welfare not even a healthcare card" brigade though.  Remarkably and perhaps understandably silent.

Umm, Lols is right - upgrading/up-marketing an owner/occupier is not the same - you gain equity (hopefully) and then move up.  It's what most of us did, and what the younger ones should be looking at instead of the MacMansions lifestyle.

As before - even that is fraught with peril since most of the MacMansion development takes place in outer city areas without adequate transport etc infrastructure - and are 'dormitory' suburbs without industry - thus everyone has to travel miles to get to work - meaning that transport is an extra cost on their mortgage.

I thought it was realised in the 1970's with the Campbelltown expansion of 'dormitory' suburbs, with the assumption that people would live there and travel to work elsewhere - that this concept was doomed. 

Campbelltown in many areas is not only Teenage Wasteland but also Adult Wasteland - no work, no nothing, serious crime problems, heavy police presence.  Yet the concept continues with vast tracts under the mooted flight path for Badgerys Creek being opened up and jerry-built on.

Moves by the State of NSW to offer people incentives to move to a regional area and work fell flat - as usual.  Reminds me of the 'de-centralisation' theory of the late 60's 70's... (again - history suck)...

Anyway - the trouble - again - with Lols' point is that the number of available smaller/cheaper properties etc is declining compared to population and thee is increasingly nowhere to go but to the 'dormitory' suburbs - and take your chances on not falling through the gaps.

I dunno - I don't have all the answers (just sound sometimes as if I do) - some point to immigration as the problem; some to population expansion; some to lack of opportunity in rural/Regional areas for work (I live in one - apply daily for work at 64 and disabled); some to over-concentration in urban areas of industry, government, etc - well where are they gonna go when the railway lines have been closed in many spots and how many public servants want to re-locate to Brewarinna?

Bam's thoughts are good - I've mooted already the idea that welfare housing recipients should be offered the incentive of purchasing the home instead of renting and wrecking it... (chortles) rent/buy instead of rent/wreck.. only unlike Greek property magnate rent/buy you keep some equity if you fall through the cracks.   One of my sisters lives in HC - her lawn is manicured - her house surgically clean and tidy - her neighbours have grass three feet high and religious (holey) walls, and her huge son had to sort them out when they threatened her (he has even bigger cousins like my son the Rugby Captain).

Now - if instead of being offered cheap/free accommodation, the welfare recipient was required to enter into a purchase agreement and eventually own the home or part thereof - would this not be an incentive for them to behave and be responsible - well MORE responsible?

Would this not have significant social benefits for society overall?
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Grappler Racist Filth
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Re: How Many Australians Are Living In Poverty.
Reply #153 - Jan 10th, 2014 at 12:27pm
 
Umm - at risk of dominating the conversation (nev-ah!), allo me to slang this in - got it from the head of the Republican movement:-

How Labor's policies hurt working families

    From: The Australian
    January 06, 2014 12:00AM

.

WHEN Kevin Rudd stood on the stage of the Brisbane Convention Centre, just 10 days before ballots were cast on November 24, 2007, the centrepiece of his pitch to voters was that he would "secure the future for our families, for our future and for our nation". He urged Australians to change the government because John Howard had "lost touch with working families". He said Labor valued hard work, achievement and success. Labor would protect the vulnerable. And Labor would provide a "decent standard of living for all working families". After all, that's what Labor governments are supposed to do. Six years later, after all the policy backflips, broken promises and leadership changes, the voters again cast their verdict on who should govern Australia. Labor was routed. Now the data proves what we knew all along - Labor's heartland was hurt the most.

Former Labor senator turned demographic profiler John Black crunched the numbers to discover who were the winners and who were the losers after six years of Labor in power. His findings, published in The Weekend Australian, revealed that those who did best were not Labor's traditional blue-collar working class base or the upwardly mobile working families that Mr Rudd promised to protect. They were white-collar inner-city dwellers working in education, health and public service jobs. "The biggest winners were well-paid, public-sector Greens voters living inside the goat-cheese circle of our major cities," Mr Black said. Jobs in traditional Labor voting sectors such as construction, manufacturing and transport declined between 2007 and 2013. These voters, predominantly living in the outer suburbs of Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane, were worse off after six years of Labor. Almost one million jobs were created [in the private sector of the economy] while Labor was in power; virtually none were in manual labour industries. For these blue-collar workers, their share of the labour market declined.

One of the more significant voter cohorts who witnessed their standard of living decline was young mothers aged 30-34 with two children. Many women in this demographic group simply gave up searching for work when faced with spiralling childcare costs sparked by cozy wage deals and greater regulation. If mothers did find a job, they then had to arrange hours that enabled them to effectively couple work with caring responsibilities. The freezing of the childcare rebate at $7500, Mr Black suggested, hurt single mothers badly as costs continued to increase. The future for these voters was anything but secure. "The biggest political losers from six years of Labor governments were young swinging-voter families and traditional blue-collar Labor voters," Mr Black said.

Those who benefited during Labor's reign were, not surprisingly, professionals employed in the burgeoning education, health and public service sectors. New jobs grew strongly in these sectors, accounting for 60 per cent of the total 957,000 jobs created, as the government poured money into big-spending programs and signed off on generous wage deals with unions. These voters, working in highly regulated or publicly funded industries, tend to align as much with the radical Greens party as they do with Labor. Indeed, Mr Black's analysis of federal electorates shows that the seats that saw the biggest boost to work participation rates were in inner-city Sydney, such as Grayndler, and Melbourne, such as Wills, which are heavily populated with wealthy voters, many of whom opt for the Greens at the ballot box. The seats that saw the greatest decline in work participation rates were lower-income areas on the fringes of the major cities such as Rankin outside Brisbane and Bruce outside of Melbourne. In these areas, support for the Greens is well below the state or national average.

None of these results, however shocking, should come as a surprise. It is not a coincidence that the sectors where Labor funneled large amounts of money saw jobs increase. The plethora of big-spending government programs expanded an ever-growing public service. The K-Rudd and J-Gillard governments boosted spending on education and health. Meanwhile, blue-collar jobs declined as these private sector industries faced a high-cost, low-productivity economy. Re-regulating the labour market, shackling businesses with new regulations and imposing new taxes, such as the carbon tax and the mining tax, acted as a disincentive to new investment. As we have often remarked, Labor, particularly under Juliar Gillard's leadership, became a prisoner of the unions. Too often, as a result of their political influence, they were able to extract concessions from government that served their own interests rather than the national interest. The lesson for Tony Abbott, if he needed reminding, is not to cut cozy deals with unions and to reduce regulation and taxes. The priority must be to invest in the productive drivers of the economy. This will help ALL workers, not just some.


..MORE TO FOLLOW:-
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« Last Edit: Jan 10th, 2014 at 1:19pm by Grappler Racist Filth »  

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Re: How Many Australians Are Living In Poverty.
Reply #154 - Jan 10th, 2014 at 12:28pm
 
MORE:-

"In 2007, Mr Rudd said he understood "the absolute value of hard work". He promised not to be "wasteful" with public money. He promised new leadership and a new plan for Australia. The results of that leadership and that plan are now evident for all to see. Labor betrayed its heartland - the very voters who put their faith and trust in Mr Rudd and his party. They may have believed his words, uttered with hope and promise in Brisbane in November 2007, but they were badly let down. Actions, as we now know, speak louder than words.

Cheers

Michael B
"

I'd like to take up this issue right here:-

"Those who benefited during Labor's reign were, not surprisingly, professionals employed in the burgeoning education, health and public service sectors. New jobs grew strongly in these sectors, accounting for 60 per cent of the total 957,000 jobs created, as the government poured money into big-spending programs and signed off on generous wage deals with unions. These voters, working in highly regulated or publicly funded industries, tend to align as much with the radical Greens party as they do with Labor."


Now - many of us speak of the evils of OVER-socialism - what I've dubbed socio-fascism - the total control over society or its components by government through funding and a form of feudal largesse (pork barreling).

The comparison with feudalism is simple - we the peons pay the overlord for the privilege of working his fields of society - the overlord in turn determines who will and who will not have handouts and in what volume (ian smalleye's 'consolidated revenue' concept of feudal largesse on whim) - thus creating a system of perpetual class structure through poverty on one side and munificence on the other.

Point it - the choosing is arbitrary and totally in the hands of the overlord, and any peon who objects will have his/her head removed by job loss etc.

(aside) Drunken Japanese Samurai:-  "You will have 500 koku!" (to drunken friend, suddenly elevated to riches at the drop of sake)...

Behind curtain, Samurai wife trembles at how to fit this new gift into the budget... laugh not - that's how it was in many ways.


Now - for those with a thinking mind - it is plain as day that the demographic most benefited by this feudal largesse has been the one described - those in controlled or government paid work, no hassles or problems of unemployment etc - and who have the luxury of holding the current yuppie or Green views of life... the recipients of the very ultra-socialism that segues so readily into socio-fascist Uberkontrol of society.

Socialism to the max.

WADR - I've cited the health professions before - a radiographer will get five hours pay for a ten minute callout - if a wharfie gets that, there is public outrcry.

NOBODY raises a scream when the nurses, police, fire brigades and so forth ask for a pay rise - yet according to the same silent majority of social deaf mutes - the biggest problem now is the peons are getting too much wages.   (scratches head in disbelief at the utter stupidity of so many - the three unwise monkeys?)

All peaches and ice cream... no idea of the real world.

That's why I'm here, Pilgrims - that's why I'm here.

ADDS:-   This country can waste MANY millions putting 25-30 women into politics  and CEO jobs - merited or unmerited - yet this government cannot support mothers of young children with a little bit more.  Plenty of meat for the 'betters' - nothing for the peons starving in the snow at the castle gate.....**

Talk about feudal values and concepts.... and they claim to be 'socialist'....

** Just went to lodge my resume` - saw a young and pretty girl - tiny thing - being advised on lodging her income with Colonel C'Link - and warned not to make a mistake.  The bastards are still at it - fat and lined with good pelts in the public service and figuring out more and better ways to shag the peons - their 'subordinates' and their 'lower' class in life.

What they do to those 'peons' would be cause for shrieks to high heaven if their department did it to them....
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« Last Edit: Jan 10th, 2014 at 1:28pm by Grappler Racist Filth »  

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Re: How Many Australians Are Living In Poverty.
Reply #155 - Jan 10th, 2014 at 2:33pm
 
Just on the ABC's Afternoon show at about 3.20 pm:-  the largest part of the rise in housing sales was investors.... not first home buyers....


AND:-  On the issue of the cost of wages - remember this.

The market rose to meet the expectation that the dual income family (MADIF) would cater to it.  Thus wages rose to keep pace with rising costs (housing is one more than clear example of this).  High wages is cited as one prime reason so many are out of work.

The biggest problem is that the single person has to compete with the MADIF in that inflated market - thus the single person needs to have a higher income level - thus the need for a higher income level leads to both members of the MADIF getting the same rise - thus perpetuating the cycle of MADIF creating a need for higher individual wages.

The ONLY solution - and it will cost pain for many for a few years - is the abolition of the MADIF, which abolition will eventually restore some sanity to the wages/cost of living market - and just might put Australia back on some sort of reasonable playing field in terms of productive work such as manufacturing.

Abolition by attrition FIRST - as before - those in an already established MADIF with an income above a certain level get last billing for jobs.  First billing goes to the unemployed  and those under a specified level of income.

Now wait for the screams of Fascism and Communism.... well - I've been warning you all for a long time now that failure to control your own markets in employment, incomes, such things as rental costs created by property speculation and negative gearing, privileges for the few at the cost of the many and so on - would lead to a 'strong' government  taking control of these - for the best good of the country.

I believe I see the harbingers of this in the current move to take a long hard look at education...... just one tiny cloud on the horizon.....

Now I have to finish my coffee and go to the farm to continue with the waterfall feature in the front gardens.
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« Last Edit: Jan 11th, 2014 at 9:20am by Grappler Racist Filth »  

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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