Australian Politics Forum - Get Rid Of Primitive Level Train Crossings.

imcrookonit

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Get Rid Of Primitive Level Train Crossings.
Dec 26^th, 2013 at 7:24am

Werribee rail black spot changes urged on level crossing

Date
December 26, 2013

Australia's transport safety watchdog has recommended big changes to one of Melbourne's most dangerous level crossings, after investigating a fatal smash between a freight train and a car last year.

A woman, 65, in the passenger seat of a Toyota Corolla was killed at the Cherry Street level crossing in Werribee when the car was hit by a 3000-tonne freight train on May 25, 2012. The car driver, a woman in her 30s, survived.

An investigation report, released last week, found the Corolla had been in the path of the approaching train, but that the crossing's safety problems were ''complex and extensive''. Sad

Crucially, the report did not find that the driver behaved recklessly, but that she ''acted like most other drivers would in her situation'', entering the crossing before the bells and boom gates had activated, only to find a broken-down vehicle ahead blocking her way.

''She followed relatively free-flowing traffic into the Cherry Street level crossing with the expectation that she would safely exit the other side,'' the report states.

''Unbeknown to her, the right lane just beyond the crossing was obstructed by a broken-down car. As road traffic continued through the level crossing, the car ahead of the Corolla stopped behind the broken-down car. The Corolla then came to a stand directly behind this car but was fouling the track with a train now approaching.''

The report notes the woman had less than 30 seconds to act, was blocked from driving forward, opted not to reverse after seeing a Metro train at Werribee station, finally decided to leave the car, but too late to avoid being hit. Sad

The driver of the train, which was 1.2 kilometres long and travelling at 77km/h, also had little time to react, because his view of the level crossing was obscured by the sweeping right-hand curve in the track.

The Australian Transport Safety Bureau recommended several changes to make the Cherry Street crossing safer, although it stopped short of proposing it should go. Sad

The crossing was this year listed among the 10 worst in Victoria in a poll of train drivers taken by the Australasian Railway Association. Vehicles are regularly seen queueing through the crossing.

The bureau's proposed improvements include changing the road design to give drivers a clearer view of traffic ahead, installing a vehicle refuge and short-range warning lights, reducing the length of the crossing, which is unusually long at 34 metres, and co-ordinating the boom gates with the traffic signal at a nearby pedestrian crossing.

The recommendations were made to Metro and to the Wyndham City Council, both of whom responded in writing to investigators.

The council disagreed with the bureau's assessment that that crossing was unnecessarily long, noting in its response that ''the additional length provides a warning to drivers as to where they should and should not go''.

But Metro noted that it agreed that ''shortening the crossing may provide a risk benefit''.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/werribee-rail-black-spot-changes-urged-on-level-crossing-20131225-2zwo9.html#ixzz2oWW9Flch

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imcrookonit

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Re: Get Rid Of Primitive Level Train Crossings.
Reply #1 - Dec 26^th, 2013 at 10:01am

Sale of port would fund Labor's transport scheme

Date
November 19, 2013

Labor's level crossing hit list Smiley

The multibillion-dollar sale of the Port of Melbourne would fund the biggest ever assault on Melbourne's level crossings, with Labor vowing to remove 50 crossings within eight years if it wins next year's state election at a cost of $5-$6 billion.

The Opposition would also scrap plans to build stage two of the east-west link from CityLink to the Western Ring Road, and potentially the first stage between CityLink and the Eastern Freeway if contracts are not signed before the election in November.

If contracts have been signed by then Labor says it will proceed with the $6-$8 billion road project, in addition to its own transport plan, released on Tuesday.

Other key details of that plan include a new, tolled off-ramp from the West Gate Freeway to the Port of Melbourne, reviving the former Brumby government's truck action plan, cancelled by the Coalition, to get trucks of suburban streets in the inner west.

The so-called West Gate Distributor would also remove 5000 trucks a day from the West Gate bridge and provide a new gateway into the city centre for road commuters travelling from the western suburbs via Footscray Road, the Opposition says.

The West Gate Freeway would be widened by one lane in each direction between the ring road and Williamstown Road and the Tullamarine Freeway would be widened to six lanes all the way to Melbourne Airport.

Hoddle Street would be boosted through the construction of “continuous flow intersections” at key junctions on the heavily congested road. Used in some car-dependent American cities, continuous flow intersections can reduce right-turn logjams by between 50 and 90 per cent.

There would also be $300 million spent to progress the $9 billion Melbourne Metro rail tunnel, the creation of thousands of new railway station parking spaces on government land, but no commitment to any of the proposed rail extensions to Doncaster, Rowville and Melbourne Airport.

The transport plan would be paid for by selling the Port of Melbourne, a state asset that would be expected to net several billions.

“I can't think of a better proposition than taking the money that is in an asset now, one big asset, and using it to support improvements in public transport, improvements in roads, improvements in safety, congestion,” Opposition Leader Daniel Andrews said on ABC Radio.

Terry Mulder, the minister for Roads and Public Transport, labelled Labor's vision “the shortest of short-term fixes” for Melbourne growing freight needs.

“When you look at the forecast container volumes for Melbourne in years to come, this plan is the shortest of short-term fixes,” Mr Mulder said. “Melbourne needs a second freeway connection and it needs a freeway link to the port, which is why we're building the east-west link.”

He said Labor's plan was founded on the hope it could sell the Port of Melbourne, but with no guarantee of an interested buyer from the private sector.

“It's hardly what you'd call a sophisticated approach to policy,” Mr Mulder said.

Both the RACV and the Public Transport Users Association also found fault with the plan.

Each group welcomed the pledge to remove 50 level crossings, but the RACV's Brian Negus said it lacked the long-term vision required to deal with Melbourne's expansion and population growth.

“This is a short-term plan that doesn't have the strategic, long-term vision required for dealing with congestion on our roads and on public transport,” Mr Negus said.

The PTUA's president Tony Morton said it did not deal with the major problems holding back the rail network; outmoded signalling and a long-term failure to build rail extensions to the suburbs.

"The public needs to see investment in the system to fix the problems, not a repeat of earlier neglect," Dr Morton said.

Greens transport spokesman Greg Barber said the plan favoured investment in roads over public transport, and accused the government of using politics to select which level crossings it would target.    Sad

“Removing nine out of ten level crossings from the Dandenong line is a good move. But on the desperately crowded Sandringham and South Morang lines for example, there's nothing,” Mr Barber said.

Graham Currie, Professor of Public Transport at Monash University, said the plan lacked any commitment on buses and trams, but welcomed the investment in Melbourne Metro.

“The current administration is just not doing anything with public transport, other than ensuring what was started by the last government is not stopped,” Professor Currie said.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/sale-of-port-would-fund-labors-transport-scheme-20131119-2xrqj.html#ixzz2oX9xz9Pt

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Lord Herbert

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Re: Get Rid Of Primitive Level Train Crossings.
Reply #2 - Dec 26^th, 2013 at 10:33am

I've never understood why train-crossings only have a horizontal wooden pole and a red light to stop the vehicular traffic.

It's a very simple engineering procedure to make an overpass or a tunnel beneath the rails.

As things are now, they don't even have a series of road-bumps to sl;ow traffic down as it nears the railway crossing.

Very basic: A series of shuddering bumps to slow traffic to a crawl.

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gizmo_2655

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Re: Get Rid Of Primitive Level Train Crossings.
Reply #3 - Dec 26^th, 2013 at 10:40am

Lord Herbert wrote on Dec 26^th, 2013 at 10:33am:

I've never understood why train-crossings only have a horizontal wooden pole and a red light to stop the vehicular traffic.

It's a very simple engineering procedure to make an overpass or a tunnel beneath the rails.

As things are now, they don't even have a series of road-bumps to sl;ow traffic down as it nears the railway crossing.

Very basic: A series of shuddering bumps to slow traffic to a crawl.

Perhaps they expect people to be aware enough and skilled enough to notice the flashing lights and horizontal bar.

very basic.

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It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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Lord Herbert

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Re: Get Rid Of Primitive Level Train Crossings.
Reply #4 - Dec 26^th, 2013 at 10:43am

gizmo_2655 wrote on Dec 26^th, 2013 at 10:40am:

Perhaps they expect people to be aware enough and skilled enough to notice the flashing lights and horizontal bar.

very basic.

Wrong.

And the proof is the guaranteed annual roll-call of fatalities at these crossings.

So what we now have is ... inadequate.

Very basic conclusion.

Up-and-over ... or down-and-under.

It's not rocket science.

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Gnads

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Re: Get Rid Of Primitive Level Train Crossings.
Reply #5 - Dec 26^th, 2013 at 10:44am

Quote:

Sale of port would fund Labor's transport scheme

Date
November 19, 2013

Labor's level crossing hit list Smiley

The multibillion-dollar sale of the Port of Melbourne would fund the biggest ever assault on Melbourne's level crossings, with Labor vowing to remove 50 crossings within eight years if it wins next year's state election at a cost of $5-$6 billion.

The Opposition would also scrap plans to build stage two of the east-west link from CityLink to the Western Ring Road, and potentially the first stage between CityLink and the Eastern Freeway if contracts are not signed before the election in November.

If contracts have been signed by then Labor says it will proceed with the $6-$8 billion road project, in addition to its own transport plan, released on Tuesday.

Other key details of that plan include a new, tolled off-ramp from the West Gate Freeway to the Port of Melbourne, reviving the former Brumby government's truck action plan, cancelled by the Coalition, to get trucks of suburban streets in the inner west.

The so-called West Gate Distributor would also remove 5000 trucks a day from the West Gate bridge and provide a new gateway into the city centre for road commuters travelling from the western suburbs via Footscray Road, the Opposition says.

The West Gate Freeway would be widened by one lane in each direction between the ring road and Williamstown Road and the Tullamarine Freeway would be widened to six lanes all the way to Melbourne Airport.

Hoddle Street would be boosted through the construction of “continuous flow intersections” at key junctions on the heavily congested road. Used in some car-dependent American cities, continuous flow intersections can reduce right-turn logjams by between 50 and 90 per cent.

There would also be $300 million spent to progress the $9 billion Melbourne Metro rail tunnel, the creation of thousands of new railway station parking spaces on government land, but no commitment to any of the proposed rail extensions to Doncaster, Rowville and Melbourne Airport.

The transport plan would be paid for by selling the Port of Melbourne, a state asset that would be expected to net several billions.

“I can't think of a better proposition than taking the money that is in an asset now, one big asset, and using it to support improvements in public transport, improvements in roads, improvements in safety, congestion,” Opposition Leader Daniel Andrews said on ABC Radio.

Terry Mulder, the minister for Roads and Public Transport, labelled Labor's vision “the shortest of short-term fixes” for Melbourne growing freight needs.

“When you look at the forecast container volumes for Melbourne in years to come, this plan is the shortest of short-term fixes,” Mr Mulder said. “Melbourne needs a second freeway connection and it needs a freeway link to the port, which is why we're building the east-west link.”

He said Labor's plan was founded on the hope it could sell the Port of Melbourne, but with no guarantee of an interested buyer from the private sector.

“It's hardly what you'd call a sophisticated approach to policy,” Mr Mulder said.

Both the RACV and the Public Transport Users Association also found fault with the plan.

Each group welcomed the pledge to remove 50 level crossings, but the RACV's Brian Negus said it lacked the long-term vision required to deal with Melbourne's expansion and population growth.

“This is a short-term plan that doesn't have the strategic, long-term vision required for dealing with congestion on our roads and on public transport,” Mr Negus said.

The PTUA's president Tony Morton said it did not deal with the major problems holding back the rail network; outmoded signalling and a long-term failure to build rail extensions to the suburbs.

"The public needs to see investment in the system to fix the problems, not a repeat of earlier neglect," Dr Morton said.

Greens transport spokesman Greg Barber said the plan favoured investment in roads over public transport, and accused the government of using politics to select which level crossings it would target.    Sad

“Removing nine out of ten level crossings from the Dandenong line is a good move. But on the desperately crowded Sandringham and South Morang lines for example, there's nothing,” Mr Barber said.

Graham Currie, Professor of Public Transport at Monash University, said the plan lacked any commitment on buses and trams, but welcomed the investment in Melbourne Metro.

“The current administration is just not doing anything with public transport, other than ensuring what was started by the last government is not stopped,” Professor Currie said.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/sale-of-port-would-fund-labors-transport-scheme-20131119-2xrqj.html#ixzz2oX9xz9Pt

The privatisation/sell off of the Port to finance removal of level xings is a disgrace. That it is mooted by Labor politicians is a bigger disgrace as it is contrary to Labor ideology.The quoted car accident where it was found the woman wasn't at fault is just one of hundreds where it is always the car drivers fault. Trains do not hit cars -car/truck drivers hit trains or put themselves in/on a collision path with trains. 99% of level crossing accidents & fatalities are caused by car/truck drivers ignoring signage/flashing lights & going around boom gates.

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Gnads Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 33078 Gender:	Re: Get Rid Of Primitive Level Train Crossings. Reply #6 - Dec 26^th, 2013 at 10:47am This is just costing tax payers a fortune to legislate for idiots aka wrapping them in cotton wool/bubble wrap because the bastards won't obey simple road rules. I wonder how the Train Driver/Drivers involved are doing?
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The_Barnacle

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Re: Get Rid Of Primitive Level Train Crossings.
Reply #7 - Dec 26^th, 2013 at 10:49am

Lord Herbert wrote on Dec 26^th, 2013 at 10:43am:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Dec 26^th, 2013 at 10:40am:

Perhaps they expect people to be aware enough and skilled enough to notice the flashing lights and horizontal bar.

very basic.

Wrong.

And the proof is the guaranteed annual roll-call of fatalities at these crossings.

So what we now have is ... inadequate.

Very basic conclusion.

Up-and-over ... or down-and-under.

It's not rocket science.

Totally agree Herbert.
Melbourne would have to be the worst city in Australia for level crossing black spots. Successive governments have just ignored them. Now that there are more trains in the system to cope with the overcrowded network these problems will only get worse.

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Sir lastnail

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Re: Get Rid Of Primitive Level Train Crossings.
Reply #8 - Dec 26^th, 2013 at 11:01am

Lord Herbert wrote on Dec 26^th, 2013 at 10:43am:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Dec 26^th, 2013 at 10:40am:

Perhaps they expect people to be aware enough and skilled enough to notice the flashing lights and horizontal bar.

very basic.

Wrong.

And the proof is the guaranteed annual roll-call of fatalities at these crossings.

So what we now have is ... inadequate.

Very basic conclusion.

Up-and-over ... or down-and-under.

It's not rocket science.

But the great enviable economy of the world can't afford to do this !!

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The Heartless Felon Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2869 Gender:	Re: Get Rid Of Primitive Level Train Crossings. Reply #9 - Dec 26^th, 2013 at 11:15am Leave 'em alone: Darwinism works...
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Lord Herbert

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Re: Get Rid Of Primitive Level Train Crossings.
Reply #10 - Dec 26^th, 2013 at 11:34am

The_Barnacle wrote on Dec 26^th, 2013 at 10:49am:

Lord Herbert wrote on Dec 26^th, 2013 at 10:43am:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Dec 26^th, 2013 at 10:40am:

Perhaps they expect people to be aware enough and skilled enough to notice the flashing lights and horizontal bar.

very basic.

Wrong.

And the proof is the guaranteed annual roll-call of fatalities at these crossings.

So what we now have is ... inadequate.

Very basic conclusion.

Up-and-over ... or down-and-under.

It's not rocket science.

Totally agree Herbert.
Melbourne would have to be the worst city in Australia for level crossing black spots. Successive governments have just ignored them. Now that there are more trains in the system to cope with the overcrowded network these problems will only get worse.

... and don't forget Mobile Phones. These are killers. It's like Dial-Me-A-Fatality.

And don't forget the ever-increasing number of immigrant Asian drivers ...

And the ever-increasing number of aging widows now on the roads ...

And truckies who are high on Red Bull and little white pills they buy from the highway truck stop cafes ...

And Muslims ... (Sorry, wrong thread). Cool

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gizmo_2655

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Re: Get Rid Of Primitive Level Train Crossings.
Reply #11 - Dec 26^th, 2013 at 11:41am

Lord Herbert wrote on Dec 26^th, 2013 at 10:43am:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Dec 26^th, 2013 at 10:40am:

Perhaps they expect people to be aware enough and skilled enough to notice the flashing lights and horizontal bar.

very basic.

Wrong.

And the proof is the guaranteed annual roll-call of fatalities at these crossings.

So what we now have is ... inadequate.

Very basic conclusion.

Up-and-over ... or down-and-under.

It's not rocket science.

Nope, every fatality at level crossings is the result of incompetence or straight out stupidity on the part of the car drivers....

Maybe we should get rid of traffic lights too, and have road intersections with over or under crossings too???
After all, normal road crossings only have coloured lights, not flashing red lights, bells and boom gates..

Seriously...anyone who can't see a 3000 tonnes goods train heading towards them should be in the driver's seat to start with.

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
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The_Barnacle

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Re: Get Rid Of Primitive Level Train Crossings.
Reply #12 - Dec 26^th, 2013 at 11:52am

gizmo_2655 wrote on Dec 26^th, 2013 at 11:41am:

Lord Herbert wrote on Dec 26^th, 2013 at 10:43am:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Dec 26^th, 2013 at 10:40am:

Perhaps they expect people to be aware enough and skilled enough to notice the flashing lights and horizontal bar.

very basic.

Wrong.

And the proof is the guaranteed annual roll-call of fatalities at these crossings.

So what we now have is ... inadequate.

Very basic conclusion.

Up-and-over ... or down-and-under.

It's not rocket science.

Nope, every fatality at level crossings is the result of incompetence or straight out stupidity on the part of the car drivers....

Maybe we should get rid of traffic lights too, and have road intersections with over or under crossings too???
After all, normal road crossings only have coloured lights, not flashing red lights, bells and boom gates..

Seriously...anyone who can't see a 3000 tonnes goods train heading towards them should be in the driver's seat to start with.

We already do, they are called "freeways", and they are much safer to drive on than your average main road with intersections.

Obviously we can't eliminate all the risks with driving a car (which is the most dangerous thing most of us will do in our lives) but we can minimise them. Part of minimising the risks is to remove inherently dangerous intersections such as train level crossings.

Gizmo, yes there are stupid and incompetant people on our roads. There are also competant and smart people who simply make an error of judgement. Are you saying that these people deserve to die?

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Lord Herbert Gold Member Offline Posts: 34441 Gender:	Re: Get Rid Of Primitive Level Train Crossings. Reply #13 - Dec 26^th, 2013 at 1:41pm gizmo_2655 wrote on Dec 26^th, 2013 at 11:41am: Nope, every fatality at level crossings is the result of incompetence or straight out stupidity on the part of the car drivers.... The problem is .... they carry innocent passengers. Up-and-over, gizmo.
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gizmo_2655

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Re: Get Rid Of Primitive Level Train Crossings.
Reply #14 - Dec 26^th, 2013 at 2:45pm

Lord Herbert wrote on Dec 26^th, 2013 at 1:41pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Dec 26^th, 2013 at 11:41am:

Nope, every fatality at level crossings is the result of incompetence or straight out stupidity on the part of the car drivers....

The problem is .... they carry innocent passengers.

Up-and-over, gizmo.

Up-and-over isn't always an option Herbert, neither is down-and-under.

And the fault for the passengers deaths or injury is still in the hands of the car driver.

The people I feel sorry for are the train drivers...

Basically, every level crossing accident I've every heard of or seen has been the car driver's fault.

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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