Australian Politics Forum - Pew survey of Muslims' opinions

freediver

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Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Reply #225 - May 31^st, 2017 at 1:28pm

mothra wrote on May 31^st, 2017 at 1:15pm:

freediver wrote on May 31^st, 2017 at 1:12pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 31^st, 2017 at 1:09pm:

freediver wrote on May 31^st, 2017 at 12:57pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 31^st, 2017 at 12:50pm:

FD do you consider all people who support capital punishment as "bad" people?

Not really. Are you deliberately missing the point?

No I'm trying to understand your point FD. You seem to want to point out that the majority of muslims are 'bad' people, because of their 'bad' beliefs - no?

I was trying to get to the bottom of the assumptions behind claims (by mothra I think, but they are made here regularly by a variety of people) that the vast majority of Muslims are good people. So far Mothra has pointed out an unwillingness to accept at face value what Muslims from around the world say they believe.

Nope. I maintain that the vast majority of Muslims are good people.

Did you do something to disprove that and i didn't notice?

Here you go Mothra.

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Auggie Gold Member Offline The Bull Moose Posts: 8571	Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions Reply #226 - Jun 4^th, 2017 at 6:49pm The question is FD, do we want to exclude people from Australia based on what they believe? What are we going to do, police thought?
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Frank Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 56031 Gender:	Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions Reply #227 - Jun 4^th, 2017 at 9:59pm If you still haven't abandoned Islam you are like the Communists who remained loyal after the 1956 Hungarian revolution or the 1968 Check revolution. If you are still a loyal Muslim after all those dreadful Muslim terrorist attacks, you are an enemy of humanity.
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freediver

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Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Reply #228 - Jun 5^th, 2017 at 12:35pm

Auggie wrote on Jun 4^th, 2017 at 6:49pm:

The question is FD, do we want to exclude people from Australia based on what they believe? What are we going to do, police thought?

We should not let people migrate to Australia if they are ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy.

Other than that, open and honest discussion should be enough to manage the problem within Australia.

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Auggie Gold Member Offline The Bull Moose Posts: 8571	Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions Reply #229 - Jun 5^th, 2017 at 6:12pm freediver wrote on Jun 5^th, 2017 at 12:35pm: We should not let people migrate to Australia if they are ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy. On what basis do we determine this?
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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 52119 At my desk.	Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions Reply #230 - Jun 5^th, 2017 at 8:04pm The same way we judge them on the other requirements for citizenship.
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Auggie Gold Member Offline The Bull Moose Posts: 8571	Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions Reply #231 - Jun 5^th, 2017 at 10:59pm freediver wrote on Jun 5^th, 2017 at 8:04pm: The same way we judge them on the other requirements for citizenship. Which is what exactly?
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Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 41233 Gender:	Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions Reply #232 - Jun 6^th, 2017 at 12:31am Auggie wrote on Jun 5^th, 2017 at 6:12pm: freediver wrote on Jun 5^th, 2017 at 12:35pm: We should not let people migrate to Australia if they are ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy. On what basis do we determine this? if they are muslims, they are opposed to us.
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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions Reply #233 - Jun 6^th, 2017 at 10:41am
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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 52119 At my desk.	Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions Reply #234 - Jun 6^th, 2017 at 12:39pm Auggie wrote on Jun 5^th, 2017 at 10:59pm: freediver wrote on Jun 5^th, 2017 at 8:04pm: The same way we judge them on the other requirements for citizenship. Which is what exactly? Aks them lots of questions. Look into their background.
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Auggie

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Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Reply #235 - Jun 6^th, 2017 at 5:36pm

freediver wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 12:39pm:

Auggie wrote on Jun 5^th, 2017 at 10:59pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 5^th, 2017 at 8:04pm:

The same way we judge them on the other requirements for citizenship.

Which is what exactly?

Aks them lots of questions. Look into their background.

So, questions like:

1) do you acknowledge that Mohammad was a power-hungry psychopath who led a death cult?

2) do you believe that men are 'maintainers of women' and that they may hit their wife if she disobeys him?

3) do you believe that the Quran:

- is wholly the word of god?
- is partially the word of god?
- is not the word of god?
- is the ravings of a lunatic?

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Auggie

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Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Reply #236 - Jun 6^th, 2017 at 5:37pm

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 12:31am:

Auggie wrote on Jun 5^th, 2017 at 6:12pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 5^th, 2017 at 12:35pm:

We should not let people migrate to Australia if they are ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy.

On what basis do we determine this?

if they are muslims, they are opposed to us.

Even sufis?

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freediver

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Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Reply #237 - Jun 6^th, 2017 at 6:29pm

Auggie wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 5:36pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 12:39pm:

Auggie wrote on Jun 5^th, 2017 at 10:59pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 5^th, 2017 at 8:04pm:

The same way we judge them on the other requirements for citizenship.

Which is what exactly?

Aks them lots of questions. Look into their background.

So, questions like:

1) do you acknowledge that Mohammad was a power-hungry psychopath who led a death cult?

2) do you believe that men are 'maintainers of women' and that they may hit their wife if she disobeys him?

3) do you believe that the Quran:

- is wholly the word of god?
- is partially the word of god?
- is not the word of god?
- is the ravings of a lunatic?

A lot of people probably don't even know who Muhammad is. Finding out whether they are Muslim is only relevant to the extent that it suggests more specific questions about freedom and democracy.

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Auggie

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Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Reply #238 - Jun 6^th, 2017 at 7:03pm

freediver wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 6:29pm:

Auggie wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 5:36pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 12:39pm:

Auggie wrote on Jun 5^th, 2017 at 10:59pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 5^th, 2017 at 8:04pm:

The same way we judge them on the other requirements for citizenship.

Which is what exactly?

Aks them lots of questions. Look into their background.

So, questions like:

1) do you acknowledge that Mohammad was a power-hungry psychopath who led a death cult?

2) do you believe that men are 'maintainers of women' and that they may hit their wife if she disobeys him?

3) do you believe that the Quran:

- is wholly the word of god?
- is partially the word of god?
- is not the word of god?
- is the ravings of a lunatic?

A lot of people probably don't even know who Muhammad is. Finding out whether they are Muslim is only relevant to the extent that it suggests more specific questions about freedom and democracy.

But, a person could lie about being Muslim? They could use the strategy of 'Taqiyyah' of which I'm sure you are aware. This doctrine makes it permissible to conceal that you are a Muslim if you fear persecution. The religious authorities would just extend its use to include such a situation by making a ruling.

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freediver

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Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Reply #239 - Jun 6^th, 2017 at 7:07pm

Auggie wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 7:03pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 6:29pm:

Auggie wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 5:36pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 12:39pm:

Auggie wrote on Jun 5^th, 2017 at 10:59pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 5^th, 2017 at 8:04pm:

The same way we judge them on the other requirements for citizenship.

Which is what exactly?

Aks them lots of questions. Look into their background.

So, questions like:

1) do you acknowledge that Mohammad was a power-hungry psychopath who led a death cult?

2) do you believe that men are 'maintainers of women' and that they may hit their wife if she disobeys him?

3) do you believe that the Quran:

- is wholly the word of god?
- is partially the word of god?
- is not the word of god?
- is the ravings of a lunatic?

A lot of people probably don't even know who Muhammad is. Finding out whether they are Muslim is only relevant to the extent that it suggests more specific questions about freedom and democracy.

But, a person could lie about being Muslim? They could use the strategy of 'Taqiyyah' of which I'm sure you are aware. This doctrine makes it permissible to conceal that you are a Muslim if you fear persecution. The religious authorities would just extend its use to include such a situation by making a ruling.

The basis for exclusion is whether they oppose freedom and democracy, not their religion.

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