Australian Politics Forum - This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.

Datalife

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Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Reply #30 - Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 6:50pm

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 6:37pm:

Only some who has never engaged with them would spout the stuff you do, FD. Roll Eyes

Brian, your personal anecdotes that you know a muslim does not invalidate any points in a debate, someone who pretends to be an academic on the interwebds will do nothing for their credibility if they trot that out as a counterpoint.

But not as funny as you have proof you don't suffer mental illness. Is that a letter from your doctor? Grin

Too funny, I am seriously laughing here. No joke.

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freediver

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Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Reply #31 - Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 7:04pm

This is from the guy who "knows" what Muslims think, without the need to ask (in fact he refuses to, just in case) because his servants did not chop his head off in his sleep when he was in Malaysia? Brian you may not have noticed, but the majority of Malaysians want to start chopping peoples head's off for blasphemy, and stoning disobedient child brides to death. These are the things you find out when you stop to ask people what they think, rather than telling them what they think.

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Brian Ross

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Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Reply #32 - Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 7:10pm

freediver wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 7:04pm:

This is from the guy who "knows" what Muslims think, without the need to ask (in fact he refuses to, just in case) because his servants did not chop his head off in his sleep when he was in Malaysia? Brian you may not have noticed, but the majority of Malaysians want to start chopping peoples head's off for blasphemy, and stoning disobedient child brides to death. These are the things you find out when you stop to ask people what they think, rather than telling them what they think.

Dunno where you're getting this bullshit about Malaysia and servants from, FD? Roll Eyes

As usual, you make the classic mistake when attempting to apply statistics to real life situations. Roll Eyes

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49963 At my desk.	Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims. Reply #33 - Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 7:31pm I'm surprised you missed this Brian. Or maybe you blocked it out every time you read it. http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/ http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/
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polite_gandalf

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Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Reply #34 - Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 7:52pm

freediver wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 7:04pm:

Brian you may not have noticed, but the majority of Malaysians want to start chopping peoples head's off for blasphemy, and stoning disobedient child brides to death. These are the things you find out when you stop to ask people what they think

What Malaysians were asked:

Quote:

Q92d. Do you favor or oppose the following: stoning
people who commit adultery?

52% in favour (of 87% who support sharia as law of the land)

First point - it is not a majority of Malaysians (52% of 87% - and actually only Malay Malaysians, not "Malaysians" as in Malays + Chinese + Indians).

Second point - child brides are unheard of, and illegal in Malaysia, - the legal age of marriage for a bride is 21, or 18 with parental consent, or 16 with both parental consent and a court order (or in other words, even stricter than Australia).

Third point - I'm sure you know this already, but I'll humour you anyway, the questioner is not asking "do you support stoning disobedient child-brides to death". You may argue it is the same thing (minus the child bride of course), but you and I know that responses to a survey are highly dependent on the way the question is asked. If they were asked such a question, the responses would obviously be drastically different. Its a bit like if a survey revealed that a majority of Americans support drone strikes in Pakistan, even if it results in some collateral civilian deaths - I could stand up and boldly declare "look, Americans say they support their government slaughtering civilians with absolutely no transparency or accountability!" - and you would be right to say "thats just dumb".

Long story short, Malays are not the barbarians you are making them out to be.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Lord Herbert Gold Member Offline Posts: 34441 Gender:	Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims. Reply #35 - Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 7:54pm freediver wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 6:29pm: Perhaps you are posting on the wrong website? Ha! Brian's Home Page should be this forum site that's a rat's nest of self-destructive neurotics.
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freediver

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Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Reply #36 - Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 7:59pm

Quote:

First point - it is not a majority of Malaysians (52% of 87% - and actually only Malay Malaysians, not "Malaysians" as in Malays + Chinese + Indians).

Great. Only the Muslims want to stone people to death. Tell us something we didn't know.

Quote:

Second point - child brides are unheard of, and illegal in Malaysia, - the legal age of marriage for a bride is 21, or 18 with parental consent, or 16 with both parental consent and a court order (or in other words, even stricter than Australia).

Did you miss the bit where the majority want to stone people to death for adultery?

Quote:

Long story short, Malays are not the barbarians you are making them out to be.

You got me there Gandalf. Only the Muslims are. I should have been more specific. Next time Brian starts whinging that I am being unfair to Muslims I will be more careful not to tar decent non-Muslims with the same brush.

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Brian Ross

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Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Reply #37 - Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 8:37pm

freediver wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 7:31pm:

I'm surprised you missed this Brian. Or maybe you blocked it out every time you read it.

Of course I read it. Roll Eyes

I am unsure thought what it has to do with this or what this has to do with me?

freediver wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 7:04pm:

This is from the guy who "knows" what Muslims think, without the need to ask (in fact he refuses to, just in case) because his servants did not chop his head off in his sleep when he was in Malaysia? Brian you may not have noticed, but the majority of Malaysians want to start chopping peoples head's off for blasphemy, and stoning disobedient child brides to death. These are the things you find out when you stop to ask people what they think, rather than telling them what they think.

The majority of Malaysians think no such thing, FD. As Gandalf has pointed out, the majority of Muslim Malaysians may but the questions were not asked of the total Malaysian population (of all religions).

And the point I've been making all along is that you do not ask Muslims their opinions (nor believe them when you are presented with them), unless those opinions reinforce your views on Muslims, FD. Get out there and mix with Australian Muslims. Talk to them honestly. You might be surprised what you find out! Roll Eyes

Nor have I ever claimed to have lived in Malaysia or that I had servants whilst not living in Malaysia. Roll Eyes

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polite_gandalf

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Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Reply #38 - Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 9:50pm

freediver wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 7:59pm:

Great. Only the Muslims want to stone people to death. Tell us something we didn't know.

less than 50% of muslim Malaysians (Malays), as I explained. Is this reading comprehension problem of yours chronic?

freediver wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 7:59pm:

Did you miss the bit where the majority want to stone people to death for adultery?

It is not the majority, as already explained.

Secondly, you just said that Malaysian muslims want to stone disobedient child brides. I just explained to you, in very plain English, that child brides don't exist in Malaysia.

And did you read anything I just wrote? Surveys show "support" for a lots of barbaric practices - like drone strikes, and the war in Iraq. You can also just as easily obtain support for the opposite, or at least a dramatic lessening of support, just by changing the wording of the question. As already pointed out, child brides are illegal under Malaysian law, and Malaysians are culturally averse to the concept. So if you changed the question from "Do you favor or oppose the following: stoning people who commit adultery?" to "do you favor or oppose stoning young girls who are forced into an arranged marriage with an older, abusive husband - after they have an extra-marital relationship with another man?" - it doesn't take Einstein to work out that the "support" for stoning would fall dramatically. Just as "support" for drone strikes would undoubtedly fall if the questioner goes into graphic (and truthful) detail about the devastating effect it has on innocent civilians.

freediver wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 7:59pm:

You got me there Gandalf. Only the Muslims are. I should have been more specific. Next time Brian starts whinging that I am being unfair to Muslims I will be more careful not to tar decent non-Muslims with the same brush.

Yup, well done - thats two idiotic statements made as a result of a very stupid and careless comprehension mistake.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Reply #39 - Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 10:44pm

Quote:

I am unsure thought what it has to do with this or what this has to do with me?

You don't think the opinions of Muslims are relevant?

I thought you trotted out a story about visiting Malaysia and not getting your head chopped off by your servant. Maybe it was one of the other apologists.

Quote:

The majority of Malaysians think no such thing, FD. As Gandalf has pointed out, the majority of Muslim Malaysians may but the questions were not asked of the total Malaysian population (of all religions).

What question? Is this all about Malaysia, or is it about Islam?

Quote:

And the point I've been making all along is that you do not ask Muslims their opinions (nor believe them when you are presented with them), unless those opinions reinforce your views on Muslims, FD. Get out there and mix with Australian Muslims. Talk to them honestly. You might be surprised what you find out!

That is exactly what I have been doing Brian. You on the other hand bend over backwards to avoid asking Muslims what they think.

Quote:

It is not the majority, as already explained.

Your maths is wrong. Or you are just using the wrong numbers. Even if you take into account all the Muslims who reject Shariah law in principle, the majority still want stoning. Islam's gift to these people was to keep their mentality stuck in 7th century Arab tribalism.

Quote:

Secondly, you just said that Malaysian muslims want to stone disobedient child brides. I just explained to you, in very plain English, that child brides don't exist in Malaysia.

All I said was that you are missing the point - they want to stone adulterers to death. This is perhaps the most barbaric of all the mind boggling barbarity that Islam prescribes.

Quote:

And did you read anything I just wrote? Surveys show "support" for a lots of barbaric practices - like drone strikes, and the war in Iraq. You can also just as easily obtain support for the opposite, or at least a dramatic lessening of support, just by changing the wording of the question.

Do you have any evidence of this? It doesn't sound like Pew to me, nor does the presentation look like spin.

Quote:

As already pointed out, child brides are illegal under Malaysian law, and Malaysians are culturally averse to the concept. So if you changed the question from "Do you favor or oppose the following: stoning people who commit adultery?" to "do you favor or oppose stoning young girls who are forced into an arranged marriage with an older, abusive husband - after they have an extra-marital relationship with another man?" - it doesn't take Einstein to work out that the "support" for stoning would fall dramatically.

You still haven't figured out why people object to this whole stoning business have you?

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Brian Ross

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Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Reply #40 - Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 11:05pm

freediver wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 10:44pm:

Quote:

I am unsure thought what it has to do with this or what this has to do with me?

You don't think the opinions of Muslims are relevant?

Erecting a strawman, Freediver? Roll Eyes

Quote:

I thought you trotted out a story about visiting Malaysia and not getting your head chopped off by your servant. Maybe it was one of the other apologists.

No, I have never claimed to have lived in Malaysia which is what you suggested. I have visited Malaysia several times and survived to live and tell the tale obviously, which rather does destroy you claim that there is a mad Muslim head chopper lurking around every corner, now doesn't it, FD? Roll Eyes

Quote:

The majority of Malaysians think no such thing, FD. As Gandalf has pointed out, the majority of Muslim Malaysians may but the questions were not asked of the total Malaysian population (of all religions).

What question? Is this all about Malaysia, or is it about Islam?

Moving the goalposts? How unsurprising. YOU introduced the topic of Malaysian attitudes, not me. Roll Eyes

Quote:

And the point I've been making all along is that you do not ask Muslims their opinions (nor believe them when you are presented with them), unless those opinions reinforce your views on Muslims, FD. Get out there and mix with Australian Muslims. Talk to them honestly. You might be surprised what you find out!

That is exactly what I have been doing Brian. You on the other hand bend over backwards to avoid asking Muslims what they think.

Wrong. I live and work with Muslim Australians every day. You don't think we discuss issues? Their views are very different to what you claim they are. Funny that. Roll Eyes

Quote:

It is not the majority, as already explained.

Your maths is wrong. Or you are just using the wrong numbers. Even if you take into account all the Muslims who reject Shariah law in principle, the majority still want stoning. Islam's gift to these people was to keep their mentality stuck in 7th century Arab tribalism.

Got a reading comprehension problem, FD? Goes with your thatching, I suppose. Roll Eyes

Quote:

Secondly, you just said that Malaysian muslims want to stone disobedient child brides. I just explained to you, in very plain English, that child brides don't exist in Malaysia.

All I said was that you are missing the point - they want to stone adulterers to death. This is perhaps the most barbaric of all the mind boggling barbarity that Islam prescribes.

Quote:

And did you read anything I just wrote? Surveys show "support" for a lots of barbaric practices - like drone strikes, and the war in Iraq. You can also just as easily obtain support for the opposite, or at least a dramatic lessening of support, just by changing the wording of the question.

Do you have any evidence of this? It doesn't sound like Pew to me, nor does the presentation look like spin.

Quote:

As already pointed out, child brides are illegal under Malaysian law, and Malaysians are culturally averse to the concept. So if you changed the question from "Do you favor or oppose the following: stoning people who commit adultery?" to "do you favor or oppose stoning young girls who are forced into an arranged marriage with an older, abusive husband - after they have an extra-marital relationship with another man?" - it doesn't take Einstein to work out that the "support" for stoning would fall dramatically.

You still haven't figured out why people object to this whole stoning business have you?

[/quote]

Why are you attributing quotes to me which I did not make, FD? Roll Eyes

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freediver

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Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Reply #41 - Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 11:10pm

Quote:

No, I have never claimed to have lived in Malaysia which is what you suggested. I have visited Malaysia several times and survived to live and tell the tale obviously, which rather does destroy you claim that there is a mad Muslim head chopper lurking around every corner, now doesn't it, FD?

You got me there. I always used to say that if you got off the plane in Malaysia your head would not make it back on. I was so embarrassed when you proved me wrong.

Quote:

Moving the goalposts? How unsurprising. YOU introduced the topic of Malaysian attitudes, not me.

Well, is it about Malaysia or about Islam? What is this big question you think needs to be answered?

Quote:

Wrong. I live and work with Muslim Australians every day. You don't think we discuss issues?

I think you do your best to avoid it. If you are afraid to ask a Muslim about Islam from the safety of an itnernet forum, I doubt you would do it in real life. Most people consider it unprofessional to discuss religion and politics at work.

Quote:

Got a reading comprehension problem, FD? Goes with your thatching, I suppose.

Explain it to me then.

Quote:

Why are you attributing quotes to me which I did not make, FD?

I did not attribute them to you.

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Brian Ross

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Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Reply #42 - Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 11:18pm

freediver wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 11:10pm:

Quote:

No, I have never claimed to have lived in Malaysia which is what you suggested. I have visited Malaysia several times and survived to live and tell the tale obviously, which rather does destroy you claim that there is a mad Muslim head chopper lurking around every corner, now doesn't it, FD?

You got me there. I always used to say that if you got off the plane in Malaysia your head would not make it back on. I was so embarrassed when you proved me wrong.

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, FD. Roll Eyes

Quote:

Moving the goalposts? How unsurprising. YOU introduced the topic of Malaysian attitudes, not me.

Well, is it about Malaysia or about Islam? What is this big question you think needs to be answered?

I will remind you again, YOU introduced the topic of Malaysian attitudes, not me. So, make your mind up, either stick to that topic or announce you're moving on. Roll Eyes

Quote:

Wrong. I live and work with Muslim Australians every day. You don't think we discuss issues?

I think you do your best to avoid it. If you are afraid to ask a Muslim about Islam from the safety of an itnernet forum, I doubt you would do it in real life. Most people consider it unprofessional to discuss religion and politics at work.

I am not afraid to ask a Muslim about anything. I have had quite animated discussions with my Muslim neighbour and fellow workers and students over the years, FD. As usual, you deliberately misconstrue my comments. How unsurprising. Roll Eyes

Quote:

Got a reading comprehension problem, FD? Goes with your thatching, I suppose.

Explain it to me then.

I have. Why is it necessary again? Roll Eyes

Quote:

Why are you attributing quotes to me which I did not make, FD?

I did not attribute them to you.

They were continued on from my quotes seemlessly. Why do that unless you were misattributing them to me? Roll Eyes

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Datalife

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Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Reply #43 - Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 11:24pm

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 11:05pm:

Wrong. I live and work with Muslim Australians every day. You don't think we discuss issues? Their views are very different to what you claim they are. Funny that. Roll Eyes

A Brain specialty, debate by anecdote, no evidence required, just stories. Brian the range of people you know and jobs you have held over the years has been astonishing, and they all support your claims.

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 11:05pm:

Do you have any evidence of this?

Will an evidence free anecdote suffice? Grin

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freediver

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Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Reply #44 - Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 11:24pm

Quote:

I am not afraid to ask a Muslim about anything. I have had quite animated discussions with my Muslim neighbour and fellow workers and students over the years, FD. As usual, you deliberately misconstrue my comments. How unsurprising.

I have seen you interact with Muslims on here. You are afraid to ask them anything even resembling a difficult question, and are eager to accept whatever deflection they offer. Your Malaysia story is another demonstration of your eagerness to assume the best from Muslims but not actually ask them, to the extent that you reject the evidence off-hand when someone does go to the effort of asking.

Quote:

I have. Why is it necessary again?

Gandalf has. He got it wrong. I doubt you even know what we are talking about.

Quote:

They were continued on from my quotes seemlessly. Why do that unless you were misattributing them to me?

I credited you with enough sense to figure which were your own posts.

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