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Chimp_Logic

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Re: Fukushima
Reply #60 - Dec 8^th, 2013 at 9:09pm

***********FUKUSHIMA UPDATE************

TEPCO announced that on December 6th 2013, the highest outdoor radiation level was measured since the meltdowns occurred 1000+ days ago (outside reactor building 1).

A Radiation level of 25 S/hr was measured, which would be lethal to Humans if exposed for 20 minutes.

And of course TEPCO have a habit of underestimating their publically released radiation data.

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Grey Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5341 Gender:	Re: Fukushima Reply #61 - Dec 8^th, 2013 at 9:22pm What I often hear is that solar energy can't deliver base load power for industry. This solar furnace in france, operating since 1970, produces temperatures up to 3,500c. With a set up like that we could smelt the Pilbarra iron mountains on site.
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gizmo_2655

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Re: Fukushima
Reply #62 - Dec 8^th, 2013 at 9:35pm

Grey wrote on Dec 8^th, 2013 at 9:22pm:

What I often hear is that solar energy can't deliver base load power for industry.

This solar furnace in france, operating since 1970, produces temperatures up to 3,500c. With a set up like that we could smelt the Pilbarra iron mountains on site.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ac/Four_solaire_001.jpg/40...

SO?? It's a furnace.....can it still smelt stuff at night??

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Chimp_Logic

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Re: Fukushima
Reply #63 - Dec 8^th, 2013 at 10:29pm

Grey wrote on Dec 8^th, 2013 at 9:22pm:

What I often hear is that solar energy can't deliver base load power for industry.

This solar furnace in france, operating since 1970, produces temperatures up to 3,500c. With a set up like that we could smelt the Pilbarra iron mountains on site.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ac/Four_solaire_001.jpg/40...

Solar thermal technology currently delivers electrical power 24/7 (ie base load). Thermal storage using molten salts is well advanced

Solar Tower technology where a natural draft is created in a vertical tower, using a glass canopy, is also base load (power drops to about 50% overnight, with heat from the warm ground underneath the canopy releasing its heat at night)

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Grey

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Re: Fukushima
Reply #64 - Dec 8^th, 2013 at 11:02pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Dec 8^th, 2013 at 9:35pm:

Grey wrote on Dec 8^th, 2013 at 9:22pm:

What I often hear is that solar energy can't deliver base load power for industry.

This solar furnace in france, operating since 1970, produces temperatures up to 3,500c. With a set up like that we could smelt the Pilbarra iron mountains on site.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ac/Four_solaire_001.jpg/40...

SO?? It's a furnace.....can it still smelt stuff at night??

Does it matter? Grin

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Chimp_Logic

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Re: Fukushima
Reply #65 - Dec 8^th, 2013 at 11:17pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Dec 8^th, 2013 at 9:35pm:

Grey wrote on Dec 8^th, 2013 at 9:22pm:

What I often hear is that solar energy can't deliver base load power for industry.

This solar furnace in france, operating since 1970, produces temperatures up to 3,500c. With a set up like that we could smelt the Pilbarra iron mountains on site.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ac/Four_solaire_001.jpg/40...

SO?? It's a furnace.....can it still smelt stuff at night??

you are aware of thermal storage technology?

You need to keep up with the advances gizmo

ignorance will eat you up in the end and dump your smelly carcass upon the putrid skunk piles of Hades

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it_is_the_light Gold Member Offline Christ Light Posts: 41434 The Pyramid of LIGHT Gender:	Re: Fukushima Reply #66 - Dec 9^th, 2013 at 6:31am Crazy! Fukushima Nuclear Disaster Fortold In 2009 Terminator Movie!
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Chimp_Logic

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Re: Fukushima
Reply #67 - Dec 9^th, 2013 at 8:35am

it_is_the_light wrote on Dec 9^th, 2013 at 6:31am:

Crazy! Fukushima Nuclear Disaster Fortold In 2009 Terminator Movie!

I have seen this segment of the movie.

I am sure if you sieve through documentaries, commentaries, movies pre-2011 you will find many "apparent" predictions of the Fukushima meltdowns.

There are similar movies relating to 9/11.

WOW - there is a MAP of Japan showing something happening on the coast NEAR Fukushima.

So what?

Japan has about 53 Nuclear reactors, most of which are on the coast in earth quake zone and susceptible to Tsunamis.

There has always been a real and significant probability of a nuclear disaster in Japan, especially seeing as Japan sits right on the RING of FIRE - the worlds most seismically active region in the world (especially with respect to the REALL BIG earth quakes 8+, and on 3/11 Japan was slammed with a 9+ earth quake)

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Grey

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Re: Fukushima
Reply #68 - Dec 9^th, 2013 at 10:43am

gizmo_2655 wrote on Dec 8^th, 2013 at 9:35pm:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ac/Four_solaire_001.jpg/40...

SO?? It's a furnace.....can it still smelt stuff at night?? [/quote]

Let me address this less dismissively. In 1975 a small group of pot smoking back to the Earth hippies, (I was not one of them) were in reciept of a letter from PowerCorp. It told them the cost of bringing a power line through the bush to their commune would be around $80,000.

They decided to go solar with a six volt system and half a dozen extelecom batteries. They decided to put their estimated savings into an account to upgrade when necessary. Within a couple of years they went to 240volts. within ten years they stopped saving money because they had no need.

These days they have the most computer driven agricultural system i know of, with ground sensors turning on irrigation at need. They are high energy users.

http://permaculturewest.org.au/ipc6/ch09/mcmahon/index.html

Now if a bunch of hippies surrounded by forest can be self sufficient in virtually free power, why cant every suburban block?

That leaves industry with smelting being one of the biggest draws on power. Now why would it matter if the smelting furnace only ran during the day? Couldn't you have two or one twice as big? You're running on free energy with none lost in a grid. Nice shiny clean steelworks that doesn't cost the Earth. What's not to like? What are you a vampire? Grin

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Re: Fukushima
Reply #69 - Dec 9^th, 2013 at 2:40pm

Chimp_Logic wrote on Dec 8^th, 2013 at 10:29pm:

...
Solar Tower technology where a natural draft is created in a vertical tower, ...

Mike Barnard commented on solar towers in Quora: Quote:

For the updraft solar energy tower, here are the challenges:

You have to cover a very large surface area -- 20 square kilometers for 100 MW -- with solar thermal collector in order to create the updraft. This area is rendered unusable for anything else and will pretty much bake the ground underneath. Consider a moderate case for normal wind turbine technology. This would require about 80 3 MW wind turbines at a very achievable 40% capacity factor which would fit in the same area of land without impacting one another but only take up <1% to 2% maximum of the total surface area, allowing the land in between to be used for grazing, crops, hiking, archery practice or just sitting there being green and producing oxygen.
Once again, the tower has to be fairly high in order to maximize the temperature differential and hence the velocity of the air. This is much less of a concern than on the downdraft tower, because it's just a tall tower and you aren't pumping water to the top.
Unlike the downdraft tower, this version only works when the sun is shining, which makes the pumping water problem a bit of a wash.
Laminar turbulence loss of energy in devices like this is always much higher in reality than models and simulations account for. They don't get the energy out that calculations suggest that they will. While they project very high efficiencies, the reality just won't pan out. Ask a fluid dynamics geek for the variances between simulation and reality in this space sometime; it's enlightening even as your eyes cross.
This technology would have to compete with a modern wind turbine which just basically sits there requiring no water and much, much less maintenance or a modern solar farm, which uses photovoltaic panels to directly turn sunlight into electricity with much less construction and fuss.

So there are some challenges which make it unlikely that this technology will be competitive. What do I think is the trump reason for these not generating electricity in any competitive way?

No one has bothered to build any except for prototypes which have been abandoned.

Smart people reinvent variations of these things fairly often. People get enthused about them, get people to invest, build prototypes which don't work as hoped. The prototypes get abandoned and hopefully get torn down. There are a few around, and they pop up in speculative fiction occasionally, but they just aren't economically viable in reality.

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Ex Dame Pansi

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Re: Fukushima
Reply #70 - Dec 9^th, 2013 at 3:50pm

Three years on from Japan's nuclear emergency, the fallout continues to spread

WELCOME to Fukushima, where the radiation's so bad it can be fatal within 20 minutes. The tsunami may have happened some 33 months ago, but the fallout just keeps getting worse.

Japanese media is reporting that the intensity of radiation levels in the nuclear powerplant devastated by the earthquake - and subsequent tidal waves - of March 2011 is now at its highest levels ever.
Tens of thousands of people were evacuated from around the Fukushima Daiichi plant following the disaster which sent three of its six reactors critical.

On Friday, Tokyo Electric Power Company (TEPCO) reportedly detected the deadly radiation in a duct linking one of the damaged reactor buildings to a 120m tall ventilation pipe.

The radioactivity has been measured at 25 Sieverts (Sv) per hour. A total dose of two Sv is regarded as severe radiation poisoning. Six Sv produces a 100 per cent mortality rate after 30 days of suffering.
Japanese broadcaster NHK reported the duct had been used to divert gas buildups after the disaster. TEPCO says it may still contain radioactive substances.

It's just the latest in a long string of radiation "hotspot" revelations that have been leaking out of the information-firewall thrown up around the shattered nuclear plant since the disaster.
The uranium cores of the reactors have been close to "meltdown", with some burning through their concrete containment walls.

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andrei said: Great isn't it? Seeing boatloads of what is nothing more than human garbage turn up.....

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Re: Fukushima
Reply #71 - Dec 9^th, 2013 at 3:54pm

The water used in a desperate bid to "cool" these fuel rods has been steadily leaking into the soil and seeping into the nearby Pacific Ocean.
This should come as no surprise. Water is being contaminated at a rate of 400 tons per day in order to keep the superheated rods stable.

So what does this mean to Japan's nervous Pacific neighbours?

If Japan has its way, they won't find out.

Japan's parliament has just adopted a controversial new law on protecting "state secrets".

The law allows government ministers to designate as a state secret information related to defence, diplomacy, counterintelligence and counterterrorism.

It's a definition so vague many suspect it's really aimed at tightening the lid on the increasingly embarrassing state of Fukushima.

How much worse can it get? How bad is it so far? Will it affect those as far away as the United States and Australia?

Here's what we know so far:

Fuel-rod removal challenge

Clean-up workers have begun the process of moving 1533 fuel rods from the raised cooling pool in Reactor 4 of the crippled plant. This is considered a vital task as the weakened structure is likely to topple in any future big earthquake.

If it collapses, the fallout would likely be 10 times worse than that experienced in Chernobyl.

This is why Japan regards the raised level of polluted water spilling into the adjacent harbour to be "acceptable".

The process involves 36 volunteers using a crane to reach down into the pool to pluck the fuel assemblies out of the pond and lift them into a waiting protective cask. These are then trucked to a nearby - more secure - storage facility.

The process is expected to last well into 2014.

And that's just for one reactor.

There are three other reactors needing similar attention.

They have similar numbers of fuel rods. All were running at the time of the tsunami and suffered differing degrees of "melt-down".

Digging these molten cores out of the steel-and-concrete cladding designed to contain this style of disaster will not begin until after 2020.

Read more, it's a long article.

http://www.news.com.au/world/three-years-on-from-japans-nuclear-emergency-the-fa...

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andrei said: Great isn't it? Seeing boatloads of what is nothing more than human garbage turn up.....

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Chimp_Logic

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Re: Fukushima
Reply #72 - Dec 9^th, 2013 at 4:14pm

They had to start with Reactor 4, which was not running at the time of the earthquake and tsunami.

They cant enter the main building in Reactor 1,2 and 3 where the full meltdowns occurred.

Imagine North Korea or Iran introduced SECRECY LAWS that imprisoned people for expressing views?

THe USA and the entire WEST is almost totally silent on this new fascist development in Japan - both diplomatically and within the main stream media.

Japanese parliament member was ejected from the chamber for protesting against the introduction of the new SECRECY LAWS in Japan.

Obama - no problem with events in Japan. The USA have already suspended their constitution and bill of rights through the introduction of the Patriot Acts and NDAA laws.

Obama doesn't really want many Snowdens on his hands.

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gizmo_2655

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Re: Fukushima
Reply #73 - Dec 9^th, 2013 at 5:15pm

Grey wrote on Dec 8^th, 2013 at 11:02pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Dec 8^th, 2013 at 9:35pm:

Grey wrote on Dec 8^th, 2013 at 9:22pm:

What I often hear is that solar energy can't deliver base load power for industry.

This solar furnace in france, operating since 1970, produces temperatures up to 3,500c. With a set up like that we could smelt the Pilbarra iron mountains on site.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ac/Four_solaire_001.jpg/40...

SO?? It's a furnace.....can it still smelt stuff at night??

Does it matter? Grin

Yes actually it DOES...it's a furnace, not a power generation system..
It is NOT in anyway a set up to produce 'base-load' power it's something that uses power, not a thing that generates it.
'

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Chimp_Logic

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Re: Fukushima
Reply #74 - Dec 9^th, 2013 at 10:32pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Dec 9^th, 2013 at 5:15pm:

Grey wrote on Dec 8^th, 2013 at 11:02pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Dec 8^th, 2013 at 9:35pm:

Grey wrote on Dec 8^th, 2013 at 9:22pm:

What I often hear is that solar energy can't deliver base load power for industry.

This solar furnace in france, operating since 1970, produces temperatures up to 3,500c. With a set up like that we could smelt the Pilbarra iron mountains on site.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ac/Four_solaire_001.jpg/40...

SO?? It's a furnace.....can it still smelt stuff at night??

Does it matter? Grin

Yes actually it DOES...it's a furnace, not a power generation system..
It is NOT in anyway a set up to produce 'base-load' power it's something that uses power, not a thing that generates it.
'

Yes it uses solar power

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