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muso

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Re: Fukushima
Reply #45 - Dec 6^th, 2013 at 9:23pm

Where is your evidence that there was widespread contamination with Uranium and/or Plutonium?

Quote:

explosion front traveling at greater than the speed of sound - detonation, not a deflagration.

A moderated prompt criticality occured

All explosions have a velocity greater than the speed of sound. It was an explosion caused by hydrogen combusting. The fact that it was propagated at greater than the speed of sound does not preclude what actually happened.

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« Last Edit: Dec 6^th, 2013 at 9:29pm by muso »

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Chimp_Logic

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Re: Fukushima
Reply #46 - Dec 6^th, 2013 at 9:31pm

muso wrote on Dec 6^th, 2013 at 9:10pm:

There would have been a neutron surge if that had happened.

...and a very specific isotopic ratio signature

remember we are talking about a MODERATED prompt criticality - not a nuclear detonation using almost pure Uranium or Plutonium.

Fuel in new unused reactor fuel bundles are typically less than 5% Uranium (or MOX - mixed Oxide fuel, of Uranium and Plutonium)

The theory floating around, is that the spent fuel pool in reactor 3 ran dry. (cant get the Japanese or Tepco to release data and information for obvious reasons)

TEPCO in the early 2000's was heavily fined by the Japanese Nuclear regulatory body. TEPCO were found guilty of falsifying safety and engineering data during an inspection and report, at the Fukushima facility.

The Yakuza (Japanese equivalent of the Mafia) have been given authority (and BIG money) to recruit personnel to work at Fukushima - once these workers become sick or reach maximum exposure levels, they are told to leave or sacked)

The whole situation is a disgrace

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Chimp_Logic Gold Member Offline πολιτικός Posts: 4826 Mawson Base Gender:	Re: Fukushima Reply #47 - Dec 6^th, 2013 at 9:35pm incidentally, Neutron bursts were detected over a dozen times emanating from the crippled Fukushima plant - as far as a mile away I wonder where these neutrons came from muso?
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Chimp_Logic

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Re: Fukushima
Reply #48 - Dec 6^th, 2013 at 9:43pm

before I vanish muso, (I need to go out for a late dinner)

Cl-38 was also detected at Fukushima.

Looks like the natural chlorine37 found in the sea water that TEPCO was pumping in to cool the melted coriums, was turning into Cl38 (which doenst exist naturally)

I wonder where the neutrons where coming from for Cl37 to be converted to Cl38?

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muso

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Re: Fukushima
Reply #49 - Dec 6^th, 2013 at 9:58pm

Chimp_Logic wrote on Dec 6^th, 2013 at 9:35pm:

incidentally, Neutron bursts were detected over a dozen times emanating from the crippled Fukushima plant - as far as a mile away

I wonder where these neutrons came from muso?

LOL - ok, give me the "source" of this information. I have a hunch where this gem came from. Hint: Cf-98.

Here is the official report. What do you make of it as a layman?

http://fukushimafaq.wikispaces.com/file/view/rst+assessment+26march11.pdf

(probably the same as Gundersen did, since he's a layman too.)

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« Last Edit: Dec 7^th, 2013 at 5:47am by muso »

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muso

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Re: Fukushima
Reply #50 - Dec 6^th, 2013 at 10:01pm

Chimp_Logic wrote on Dec 6^th, 2013 at 9:43pm:

before I vanish muso, (I need to go out for a late dinner)

Cl-38 was also detected at Fukushima.

Looks like the natural chlorine37 found in the sea water that TEPCO was pumping in to cool the melted coriums, was turning into Cl38 (which doenst exist naturally)

I wonder where the neutrons where coming from for Cl37 to be converted to Cl38?

Spontaneous fission. Remember that at one stage, they were adding salt water directly to Unit 1 in an effort to maintain coolant levels. The CL-138 was detected in Unit 1.

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« Last Edit: Dec 6^th, 2013 at 10:11pm by muso »

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perceptions_now

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Re: Fukushima
Reply #51 - Dec 7^th, 2013 at 7:28am

muso wrote on Dec 6^th, 2013 at 9:58pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Dec 6^th, 2013 at 9:35pm:

incidentally, Neutron bursts were detected over a dozen times emanating from the crippled Fukushima plant - as far as a mile away

I wonder where these neutrons came from muso?

LOL - ok, give me the "source" of this information. I have a hunch where this gem came from. Hint: Cf-98.

Here is the official report. What do you make of it as a layman?

http://fukushimafaq.wikispaces.com/file/view/rst+assessment+26march11.pdf

(probably the same as Gundersen did, since he's a layman too.)

How do you figure that Muso, given his background -

Arnold "Arnie" Gundersen is a nuclear power expert, nuclear power whistleblower and a former nuclear industry executive and engineer with over 30 years of experience.

Gundersen questioned the safety of the Westinghouse AP1000, a proposed third-generation nuclear reactor and has expressed concerns about the operation of the Vermont Yankee Nuclear Power Plant. He served as an expert witness in the investigation of the Three Mile Island accident and has provided commentary on the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear disaster.

Gundersen is a graduate of the Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute (1971), with a B.A. in nuclear engineering, and holds a master's degree in nuclear engineering, gained on an Atomic Energy Commission Fellowship (1972).

From 1972 to 1976 Gundersen worked at the Northeast Utilities Service Corporation as a nuclear engineer; and from 1976 to 1979 at New York State Electric & Gas as an engineering supervisor. From 1979 to 1990 Gundersen was employed at Nuclear Energy Services, a Danbury, Connecticut-based consulting firm. Gundersen served as an expert witness in the investigation of the 1979 Three Mile Island accident.

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Chimp_Logic

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Re: Fukushima
Reply #52 - Dec 7^th, 2013 at 9:13am

muso wrote on Dec 6^th, 2013 at 9:58pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Dec 6^th, 2013 at 9:35pm:

incidentally, Neutron bursts were detected over a dozen times emanating from the crippled Fukushima plant - as far as a mile away

I wonder where these neutrons came from muso?

LOL - ok, give me the "source" of this information. I have a hunch where this gem came from. Hint: Cf-98.

Here is the official report. What do you make of it as a layman?

http://fukushimafaq.wikispaces.com/file/view/rst+assessment+26march11.pdf

(probably the same as Gundersen did, since he's a layman too.)

Arnie Gundersen is a layman?

Chief Engineer

Fairewinds Associates, Inc

Privately Held; 1-10 employees; Legal Services industry

2004 – Present (9 years)

I am a nuclear reliability expert with 39-years of nuclear power engineering experience. I have Bachelor's and Master's Degrees in nuclear engineering, hold a nuclear safety patent, and was a

licensed reactor operator

. Currently testify and consult with State Governments, NGO's and individual clients in the US, Canada, and overseas.

Do you how difficult it is to get a license to operate a nuclear power reactor muso? Even in the corrupt USA?

Now are you going to explain how a lodged hot particle in an organ of the body metabolises? Or do I need to take the crickets out again?

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« Last Edit: Dec 7^th, 2013 at 9:18am by Chimp_Logic »

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ImSpartacus2

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Re: Fukushima
Reply #53 - Dec 7^th, 2013 at 9:34am

perceptions_now wrote on Dec 7^th, 2013 at 7:28am:

muso wrote on Dec 6^th, 2013 at 9:58pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Dec 6^th, 2013 at 9:35pm:

incidentally, Neutron bursts were detected over a dozen times emanating from the crippled Fukushima plant - as far as a mile away

I wonder where these neutrons came from muso?

LOL - ok, give me the "source" of this information. I have a hunch where this gem came from. Hint: Cf-98.

Here is the official report. What do you make of it as a layman?

http://fukushimafaq.wikispaces.com/file/view/rst+assessment+26march11.pdf

(probably the same as Gundersen did, since he's a layman too.)

How do you figure that Muso, given his background -

Arnold "Arnie" Gundersen is a nuclear power expert, nuclear power whistleblower and a former nuclear industry executive and engineer with over 30 years of experience.

Gundersen questioned the safety of the Westinghouse AP1000, a proposed third-generation nuclear reactor and has expressed concerns about the operation of the Vermont Yankee Nuclear Power Plant. He served as an expert witness in the investigation of the Three Mile Island accident and has provided commentary on the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear disaster.

Gundersen is a graduate of the Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute (1971), with a B.A. in nuclear engineering, and holds a master's degree in nuclear engineering, gained on an Atomic Energy Commission Fellowship (1972).

From 1972 to 1976 Gundersen worked at the Northeast Utilities Service Corporation as a nuclear engineer; and from 1976 to 1979 at New York State Electric & Gas as an engineering supervisor. From 1979 to 1990 Gundersen was employed at Nuclear Energy Services, a Danbury, Connecticut-based consulting firm. Gundersen served as an expert witness in the investigation of the 1979 Three Mile Island accident.

Honestly Muso, its like arguing with a denialist (forget the facts if they get in the way of what you want to believe). Disagree with Gundersen all you please but maintaining this line that he doesn't have to credentials to say what he is saying is just utter bullcrap. Clearly the Nuclear industry is trying to do to Gundersen what the denialists have been doing to climate scientists and I'm saddened that your pushing the same line Muso. From what i can tell the only thing Gundersen has done wrong is out the nuclear industry over and over for their wrongs. No wonder they are hell bent on dirtying him.

And another thing. Nobody and I mean nobody with an ounce of common sense would argue for the uninterrupted continuation of the nuclear industry after what has transpired at Fukushima (esp after Chernobyl and the string of nuclear accidents since the 70s). Its just STUPID. Has it ever occured to you that in yor keenness to avoid an over-reaction you are ignoring the scale of the disaster at Fukushima. Its not as if this is an airplane that has gone down or a building that has collapsed. When something like Fukashima goes wrong, whole tracts of viable working land (and sea) is rendered dangerous for decades (and some times centuries) and vast numbers of people's health is put at risk and in view of all that you are saying "Now, now dont go panicking". FFS!!! This industry has got to shut down. By all means after it has shut down do all the talking you like. Gather all the information you like and put your case for a safer industry but in the meantime this industry MUST BE SHUT DOWN!!!!!

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muso

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Re: Fukushima
Reply #54 - Dec 7^th, 2013 at 9:57am

Chimp_Logic wrote on Dec 7^th, 2013 at 9:13am:

Now are you going to explain how a lodged hot particle in an organ of the body metabolises? Or do I need to take the crickets out again?

For a start, your original lodged particle was Cesium. I explained that it's a bit like getting a tiny particle of icing sugar in your lungs. It's incredibly soluble and doesn't lodge there long. Some is coughed up, and some passes through into the bloodstream.

You're obfuscating.

Gundersen inflates his qualifications. The reactor he had a certificate to operate was a small scale research (100 Watt) reactor. It's not particularly difficult to obtain that. The students (of which Gundersen was one) all got a licence.
Quote:

I got my MS and PhD at RPI a few years after Gundersen was there. RPI’s reactor was donated by the American Locomotive Co and was originally to be used for developing a nuclear train locomotive. It was reconfigured to use as a training reactor that could generate 200 Watts of power — or two big light bulbs worth. It had two means of shutting down: the control Rods with fuel followers could be dropped (removing fuel from the center of the core) and inserting poison. The backup means of shutting the reactor down was to dump the moderator to a holding tank. Yes! Core uncovery was the back up shutdown mechanism

With 200 watts output and a highly enriched fuel there was no decay heat as in a power reactor. We actually learned about flux distributions by manually taping Cadmium and Silver foils to fuel plates – starting up the reactor and running it for 20 minutes – scramming it – and quickly retrieving the foils (yes handling the fuel elements on a bench) and doing a counting experiment with a gamma spectrometer.

With a minimum amount of reading and passing an exam, students could become certified as a “Reactor Operator” by AEC and become lab instructors or teaching assistants. This is what Arne did. Getting an SRO for a commercial power reactor requires about two years of training in classrooms and on a simulator, performing numerous observed plant startups and shutdowns, passing a serious license exam.

Comparing the RPI training reactor certification to an SRO license in a power reactor is ridiculous!

There was no training on ESF systems, reactivity controls, chemistry, decay heat removal, feed water/condensate systems, the turbine and condenser etc.

For him to be parading himself around as an SRO is absurd and he needs to be called down for that.

(Dr John H. Bickel, Formerly of Xcel Energy)

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muso

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Re: Fukushima
Reply #55 - Dec 7^th, 2013 at 10:11am

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Dec 7^th, 2013 at 9:34am:

And another thing. Nobody and I mean nobody with an ounce of common sense would argue for the uninterrupted continuation of the nuclear industry after what has transpired at Fukushima (esp after Chernobyl and the string of nuclear accidents since the 70s). Its just STUPID. Has it ever occured to you that in yor keenness to avoid an over-reaction you are ignoring the scale of the disaster at Fukushima. Its not as if this is an airplane that has gone down or a building that has collapsed. When something like Fukashima goes wrong, whole tracts of viable working land (and sea) is rendered dangerous for decades (and some times centuries) and vast numbers of people's health is put at risk and in view of all that you are saying "Now, now dont go panicking". for goodness sake!!! This industry has got to shut down. By all means after it has shut down do all the talking you like. Gather all the information you like and put your case for a safer industry but in the meantime this industry MUST BE SHUT DOWN!!!!!

Fukushima is an extreme example. However, I'm not denying it was a serious incident.

What I do object to is the over-inflated accounts that come from activists like Gundersen.

Chimp keeps drawing me in to the local situation at Fukushima, probably because its what he likes doing best.

I'm concerned about the over-inflated worldwide effects and the exaggeration of nuclear activists. The sleight of hand of Gundersen in saying - it was not a deflagration - it was a detonation. Hydrogen gas can detonate and propagate faster than the speed of sound. It's a total non sequitur to say that it was therefore a PROMPT Criticality.

The hydrogen explosion at the Unit 4 SFP di result in damage to the fuel rods and ejection of fuel outside the pond. The neutrons detected outsude the facility were due to these particles, which were subsequently bulldozed into the ground.

Another report of a neutron "source" found a mile away from the plant was literally an industrial "Neutron Source". You might want to Google that, but its used for process control purposes. It's a small piece of hardware that was blown off the superstructure by the hydrogen explosion.

My agenda, if I have one is related to nonsensical reports designed to incite panic in people.

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Chimp_Logic

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Re: Fukushima
Reply #56 - Dec 7^th, 2013 at 3:25pm

muso wrote on Dec 7^th, 2013 at 10:11am:

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Dec 7^th, 2013 at 9:34am:

And another thing. Nobody and I mean nobody with an ounce of common sense would argue for the uninterrupted continuation of the nuclear industry after what has transpired at Fukushima (esp after Chernobyl and the string of nuclear accidents since the 70s). Its just STUPID. Has it ever occured to you that in yor keenness to avoid an over-reaction you are ignoring the scale of the disaster at Fukushima. Its not as if this is an airplane that has gone down or a building that has collapsed. When something like Fukashima goes wrong, whole tracts of viable working land (and sea) is rendered dangerous for decades (and some times centuries) and vast numbers of people's health is put at risk and in view of all that you are saying "Now, now dont go panicking". for goodness sake!!! This industry has got to shut down. By all means after it has shut down do all the talking you like. Gather all the information you like and put your case for a safer industry but in the meantime this industry MUST BE SHUT DOWN!!!!!

Fukushima is an extreme example. However, I'm not denying it was a serious incident.

What I do object to is the over-inflated accounts that come from activists like Gundersen.

Chimp keeps drawing me in to the local situation at Fukushima, probably because its what he likes doing best.

I'm concerned about the over-inflated worldwide effects and the exaggeration of nuclear activists. The sleight of hand of Gundersen in saying - it was not a deflagration - it was a detonation. Hydrogen gas can detonate and propagate faster than the speed of sound. It's a total non sequitur to say that it was therefore a PROMPT Criticality.

...a MODERATED prompt criticality (research data on the isotopic ratio analyses)

the "detonation" explosion comment relates to the fact that Nuclear containment standards do not include design specifications for DETONATION type explosions.

Why are so concerned about what Arnie Gundersen says in public? He is after all only a

LAYMAN

In reality Arnie Gundersen is a pro nuclear industry professional, and his Fukushima comments have been relatively conservative and mild.

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« Last Edit: Dec 7^th, 2013 at 3:30pm by Chimp_Logic »

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muso

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Re: Fukushima
Reply #57 - Dec 7^th, 2013 at 4:01pm

Chimp_Logic wrote on Dec 7^th, 2013 at 3:25pm:

muso wrote on Dec 7^th, 2013 at 10:11am:

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Dec 7^th, 2013 at 9:34am:

And another thing. Nobody and I mean nobody with an ounce of common sense would argue for the uninterrupted continuation of the nuclear industry after what has transpired at Fukushima (esp after Chernobyl and the string of nuclear accidents since the 70s). Its just STUPID. Has it ever occured to you that in yor keenness to avoid an over-reaction you are ignoring the scale of the disaster at Fukushima. Its not as if this is an airplane that has gone down or a building that has collapsed. When something like Fukashima goes wrong, whole tracts of viable working land (and sea) is rendered dangerous for decades (and some times centuries) and vast numbers of people's health is put at risk and in view of all that you are saying "Now, now dont go panicking". for goodness sake!!! This industry has got to shut down. By all means after it has shut down do all the talking you like. Gather all the information you like and put your case for a safer industry but in the meantime this industry MUST BE SHUT DOWN!!!!!

Fukushima is an extreme example. However, I'm not denying it was a serious incident.

What I do object to is the over-inflated accounts that come from activists like Gundersen.

Chimp keeps drawing me in to the local situation at Fukushima, probably because its what he likes doing best.

I'm concerned about the over-inflated worldwide effects and the exaggeration of nuclear activists. The sleight of hand of Gundersen in saying - it was not a deflagration - it was a detonation. Hydrogen gas can detonate and propagate faster than the speed of sound. It's a total non sequitur to say that it was therefore a PROMPT Criticality.

...a MODERATED prompt criticality (research data on the isotopic ratio analyses)

the "detonation" explosion comment relates to the fact that Nuclear containment standard do not include design specifications for DETONATION type explosions.

Why are so concerned about what Arnie Gundersen says in public? He is after all only a

LAYMAN

In reality Arnie Gundersen is a pro nuclear industry professional, and his Fukushima comments have been relatively conservative and mild.

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Chimp_Logic Gold Member Offline πολιτικός Posts: 4826 Mawson Base Gender:	Re: Fukushima Reply #58 - Dec 8^th, 2013 at 8:30am Muso avoids the question again. Exponential growth of his ego will engulf this entire forum ladies and gentlemen.
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Chimp_Logic

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Re: Fukushima
Reply #59 - Dec 8^th, 2013 at 10:29am

....measuring the ratio of two specific Xe isotopes in the plume, enables one to confirm whether a prompt criticality occurred.

The explosion at Reactor 3 was definitely a detonation type explosion (an event that Nuclear power stations do not design for, because detonations aren't supposed to occur)

There are two facts that support the detonation explosion scenario. Firstly there was a red flash seen in the video when reactor 3 exploded. Deflagration type explosions do not produce red flashes.

Secondly you can estimate the speed of propagation of the explosion front from "frame by frame" video analysis. The estimate confirms a greater than the speed of sound front velocity - ie a detonation.

The Japanese Authorities also found fragments of fuel rods and pellets contaiing Plutonium, Uranium etc, as far away as 5 km from the reactor explosions. These fragments are assumed to be from the reactor 3 explosion.

Americium was also detected in New England. Pu and Am are whats called transnugenics - ie elements heavier than Uranium created in the fission reactions

Don't worry about anything ladies and gentlemen

The Japanese have now passed a secrecy act.

You can be jailed now for basic investigative journalism or making public STATE SECRETS.

(The USA like this development, which explains their silence on the matter)

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