Forum

 
  Back to OzPolitic.com   Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
  Forum Home Album HelpSearch Recent Rules LoginRegister  
 

Pages: 1 ... 6 7 8 
Send Topic Print
Fukushima (Read 10124 times)
Grey
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 5341
Gender: male
Re: Fukushima
Reply #105 - Jan 1st, 2014 at 11:28pm
 
muso wrote on Jan 1st, 2014 at 3:33pm:
Even talking about radiological hazards, coal fired generation is much worse than nuclear, by a factor of 50 (conservative estimate).

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=coal-ash-is-more-radioactive-th...

- and that's just the start of it. If you want to look at it from the perspective of climate change, it doesn't bear comparison.
Quote:
Among the surprising conclusions: the waste produced by coal plants is actually more radioactive than that generated by their nuclear counterparts. In fact, the fly ash emitted by a power plant—a by-product from burning coal for electricity—carries into the surrounding environment 100 times more radiation than a nuclear power plant producing the same amount of energy.


By the way, you're right in saying that there are parts of the world where radiation levels are higher than normal by a factor of 100 in some cases.  Two things - natural alpha beta and gamma radiation are identical to those from nuclear accidents. There is also a similar internal radiation risk.

So would you expect an increased cancer risk in areas with 100 times the background radiation?

Well, in most cases, the cancer rate is actually lower in these areas.

Once again, I'm not disputing that Chernobyl and Fukushima were terrible accidents. However Coal Fired Electricity generation kills a lot more people, even including the effects of those accidents.


Interesting that fly ash thing, kinda counter-intuitive for sure. In actual fact what they're saying is revealed in the somewhat sidetracked and buried final sentence.


Quote:
As a general clarification, ounce for ounce, coal ash released from a power plant delivers more radiation than nuclear waste shielded via water or dry cask storage.


More of them good old rubbery figures.  Grin Let me try some of this surprising but true stuff. - 'A bucket of gold weighs less than a bucket of dried sponge!'

(If the gold was on Jupiter and the sponge was on mercury)


.
Back to top
 

"It is in the shelter of each other that the people live" - Irish Proverb
 
IP Logged
 
muso
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 13151
Gladstone, Queensland
Gender: male
Re: Fukushima
Reply #106 - Jan 2nd, 2014 at 5:51am
 
How else would you shield nuclear waste? It's just comparing apples with apples. I guess the ideal solution is to use a synthetic borosilicate glass for mid level wastes.

That stuff is very low risk. It's about as immobilised as you can get - and that's why I objected to  Chimp's proclamation that it was technologically impossible to treat nuclear waste.
It's expensive, but not prohibitively expensive. The problem there, is not with the Nuclear industry, which like any industry will avoid expensive solutions. The problem is with the regulator, which for various reasons avoids prescriptive legislation.

There are also many ways available to concentrate low level radioactive waste to reduce volumes, and to encapsulate it safely to avoid exposure.

Look, in Australia, nuclear energy is not going to happen and personally I'd rather see solar projects in a country where we have an abundance of that particular resource. However it must be said that in other parts of the world it has been very successful. (for example France)
Back to top
 

...
1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not 
 
IP Logged
 
muso
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 13151
Gladstone, Queensland
Gender: male
Re: Fukushima
Reply #107 - Jan 2nd, 2014 at 6:06am
 
Chimp_Logic wrote on Jan 1st, 2014 at 10:51pm:
....the ignorance and levels of disinformation concerning the dangers of Internal and External radiation is just mind blowing.

The incidence of cancer in Falluja post US depleted Uranium attacks is higher than post Hirsoshima/Nagasaki nukings.

Some food for thought.

And the insane aspect of the Fallujah attacks was that the USA didn't even need to use depleted Uranium tipped weaponry as there were no armoured vehicles or tanks to blow up.

But they used the weapons anyway - contaminating their own military personnel and effectively sprinkling U238 in what was the cradle of civilisation.

There is not a single industrial pursuit which is more insanely irresponsible and self destructive than Nuclear power using fission.

Its defenders are either paid by the industry and so are protecting their own pockets, OR they are morally bankrupt individuals.

Usually both


Again, you're providing yet another red herring. What the US did with "depleted Uranium" munitions in Iraq, amounted to a war crime of enormous proportions. No argument whatsoever. It's highly toxic stuff. Now can we get back on topic?
Back to top
 

...
1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not 
 
IP Logged
 
Ex Dame Pansi
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 24168
Re: Fukushima
Reply #108 - Jan 2nd, 2014 at 6:40am
 

Maybe we won't even need the revolution if we are all killed off naturally.


Plumes of mysterious steam rise from crippled nuclear reactor at Fukushima

Fresh plumes of most probably radioactive steam have been detected rising from the reactor 3 building at the crippled Fukushima nuclear plant, said the facility’s operator company.

The steam was first spotted on December 19 for a short period of time, then again on December 24, 25, 27, according to a report TEPCO published on its website.

The company, responsible for the cleanup of the worst nuclear disaster since Chernobyl, has not explained the source of the steam or the reason it is rising from the reactor building. High levels of radiation have complicated entry into the building and further inspection of the situation.

http://rt.com/news/fukushima-steam-nuclear-reactor-064/


Meanwhile, back at the plant.....


Japan's homeless 'recruited' for cleaning up Fukushima nuclear plant


Homeless men are being recruited for one of the most unwanted jobs in the industrialized world - clearing of radioactive fallout at the world's worst nuclear disaster since Chernobyl - the crippled Fukushima nuclear plant, a special report has claimed.

The headhunter supplies homeless people to contractors in the nuclear disaster zone for a reward of $100 per head.

"This is how labor recruiters like me come in every day," Sasa explained, walking past the destitute sleeping on cardboard in the winter cold, on the lookout for those who have
nothing left to lose.


http://rt.com/news/homeless-recruited-fukushima-nuclear-965/

Back to top
 

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace." Hendrix
andrei said: Great isn't it? Seeing boatloads of what is nothing more than human garbage turn up.....
 
IP Logged
 
Grey
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 5341
Gender: male
Re: Fukushima
Reply #109 - Jan 2nd, 2014 at 1:53pm
 
Quote:
Muso - It's just comparing apples with apples.


Oh Muso, Muso, how could you be so wrong?

Unshielded fly ash from a coal power plant is more radioactive than nuclear waste... But only if the waste is shielded thoroughly. That's not getting to the core of the issue, is it?

The core of the issue, is the extraordinary potential for catastrophe that the numerous hazards of the nuclear industry present. Hazards like an unscrupulous government using its nuclear waste as a weapon to lob at enemies. The only way I could believe the US government would do that is because they actually did it.

Why would you support a nuclear industry when there really isn't the faintest need? I mean really, if the nuclear power plant option wasn't there, it's not like we'd run out of power. We'd just concentrate our resources on solar and other clean and green power; as we should be doing.
Back to top
 

"It is in the shelter of each other that the people live" - Irish Proverb
 
IP Logged
 
muso
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 13151
Gladstone, Queensland
Gender: male
Re: Fukushima
Reply #110 - Jan 2nd, 2014 at 2:10pm
 
Grey wrote on Jan 2nd, 2014 at 1:53pm:
Quote:
Muso - It's just comparing apples with apples.


Oh Muso, Muso, how could you be so wrong?

Unshielded fly ash from a coal power plant is more radioactive than nuclear waste... But only if the waste is shielded thoroughly. That's not getting to the core of the issue, is it?

The core of the issue, is the extraordinary potential for catastrophe that the numerous hazards of the nuclear industry present. Hazards like an unscrupulous government using its nuclear waste as a weapon to lob at enemies. The only way I could believe the US government would do that is because they actually did it.

Why would you support a nuclear industry when there really isn't the faintest need? I mean really, if the nuclear power plant option wasn't there, it's not like we'd run out of power. We'd just concentrate our resources on solar and other clean and green power; as we should be doing.



There is no such thing as shielded thoroughly.
Back to top
 

...
1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not 
 
IP Logged
 
Chimp_Logic
Gold Member
*****
Offline


πολιτικός

Posts: 4826
Mawson Base
Gender: male
Re: Fukushima
Reply #111 - Jan 2nd, 2014 at 2:50pm
 
Grey wrote on Jan 2nd, 2014 at 1:53pm:
Quote:
Muso - It's just comparing apples with apples.


Oh Muso, Muso, how could you be so wrong?

Unshielded fly ash from a coal power plant is more radioactive than nuclear waste... But only if the waste is shielded thoroughly. That's not getting to the core of the issue, is it?

The core of the issue, is the extraordinary potential for catastrophe that the numerous hazards of the nuclear industry present. Hazards like an unscrupulous government using its nuclear waste as a weapon to lob at enemies. The only way I could believe the US government would do that is because they actually did it.

Why would you support a nuclear industry when there really isn't the faintest need? I mean really, if the nuclear power plant option wasn't there, it's not like we'd run out of power. We'd just concentrate our resources on solar and other clean and green power; as we should be doing.


You make some excellent and common sense points Grey.

It will be interesting to see the response
Back to top
 

Mini Ice Age (2014-2029)
Dr Sircus cures cancer with Baking Soda and Magnesium - Jethro the MENTAL GIANT & his flute madness
 
IP Logged
 
muso
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 13151
Gladstone, Queensland
Gender: male
Re: Fukushima
Reply #112 - Jan 2nd, 2014 at 9:56pm
 
I'll respond when I can. I don't have as much spare time these days.
Back to top
 

...
1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not 
 
IP Logged
 
namnugenot
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 639
NSW
Gender: male
Re: Fukushima
Reply #113 - Jan 3rd, 2014 at 11:33am
 
Chimp_Logic wrote on Jan 1st, 2014 at 10:51pm:
....the ignorance and levels of disinformation concerning the dangers of Internal and External radiation is just mind blowing.

The incidence of cancer in Falluja post US depleted Uranium attacks is higher than post Hirsoshima/Nagasaki nukings.

Some food for thought.

And the insane aspect of the Fallujah attacks was that the USA didn't even need to use depleted Uranium tipped weaponry as there were no armoured vehicles or tanks to blow up.

But they used the weapons anyway - contaminating their own military personnel and effectively sprinkling U238 in what was the cradle of civilisation.

There is not a single industrial pursuit which is more insanely irresponsible and self destructive than Nuclear power using fission.

Its defenders are either paid by the industry and so are protecting their own pockets, OR they are morally bankrupt individuals.

Usually both


So which one is (Mr AGW) Hanson?
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
namnugenot
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 639
NSW
Gender: male
Re: Fukushima
Reply #114 - Jan 3rd, 2014 at 11:47am
 
# wrote on Dec 30th, 2013 at 12:15pm:
namnugenot wrote on Dec 30th, 2013 at 10:11am:
# wrote on Dec 30th, 2013 at 9:59am:
namnugenot wrote on Dec 30th, 2013 at 9:41am:
The science is in...nuclear is safe...the top climate scientists agree
...
In what proportion?

It seems to me that, among the best qualified, there's more substantial disagreement on nuclear than there is on Anthropogenic Global Warming.

For mine, nuclear is less a solution than a different set of problems.


Not quite sure of the the exact scientific basis and parameters of "It seems to me" and "for mine"...
So you're confused. At least you're consistent.

I take it you have no clue about the proportion of Climate scientists who advocate nuclear. What's the point of a datum if you're ignorant of its significance?


You're a dishonest fraud. Not confused at all just wanting you to define the scientific basis of ":It seems to me" and "for mine" as these are terms that oddly enough don't come up in scientific papers. You might like to answer a question yourself. Blah, Blah, Blah...."97% of the World's Climate Scientists support AGW". You have a funny idea of what constitutes the world and the validity of selectively sent (so not random) volunteer surveys. What proportion came from the USA and Canada?
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
#
Gold Member
*****
Offline


A fool is certain: an
ignorant fool, absolutely
so

Posts: 2603
Re: Fukushima
Reply #115 - Jan 3rd, 2014 at 3:56pm
 
namnugenot wrote on Jan 3rd, 2014 at 11:47am:
# wrote on Dec 30th, 2013 at 12:15pm:
namnugenot wrote on Dec 30th, 2013 at 10:11am:
# wrote on Dec 30th, 2013 at 9:59am:
namnugenot wrote on Dec 30th, 2013 at 9:41am:
The science is in...nuclear is safe...the top climate scientists agree
...
In what proportion?

It seems to me that, among the best qualified, there's more substantial disagreement on nuclear than there is on Anthropogenic Global Warming.

For mine, nuclear is less a solution than a different set of problems.


Not quite sure of the the exact scientific basis and parameters of "It seems to me" and "for mine"...
So you're confused. At least you're consistent.

I take it you have no clue about the proportion of Climate scientists who advocate nuclear. What's the point of a datum if you're ignorant of its significance?


You're a dishonest fraud. Not confused at all just wanting you to define the scientific basis of ":It seems to me" and "for mine" as these are terms that oddly enough don't come up in scientific papers. You might like to answer a question yourself. Blah, Blah, Blah...."97% of the World's Climate Scientists support AGW". You have a funny idea of what constitutes the world and the validity of selectively sent (so not random) volunteer surveys. What proportion came from the USA and Canada?

The terms to which you refer connote opinion. You're evidently confusing them with something else. I've not misrepresented them, so I can only assume that your confusion is tactical.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Chimp_Logic
Gold Member
*****
Offline


πολιτικός

Posts: 4826
Mawson Base
Gender: male
Re: Fukushima
Reply #116 - Jan 4th, 2014 at 9:00am
 
namnugenot wrote on Jan 3rd, 2014 at 11:47am:
# wrote on Dec 30th, 2013 at 12:15pm:
namnugenot wrote on Dec 30th, 2013 at 10:11am:
# wrote on Dec 30th, 2013 at 9:59am:
namnugenot wrote on Dec 30th, 2013 at 9:41am:
The science is in...nuclear is safe...the top climate scientists agree
...
In what proportion?

It seems to me that, among the best qualified, there's more substantial disagreement on nuclear than there is on Anthropogenic Global Warming.

For mine, nuclear is less a solution than a different set of problems.


Not quite sure of the the exact scientific basis and parameters of "It seems to me" and "for mine"...
So you're confused. At least you're consistent.

I take it you have no clue about the proportion of Climate scientists who advocate nuclear. What's the point of a datum if you're ignorant of its significance?


You're a dishonest fraud. Not confused at all just wanting you to define the scientific basis of ":It seems to me" and "for mine" as these are terms that oddly enough don't come up in scientific papers. You might like to answer a question yourself. Blah, Blah, Blah...."97% of the World's Climate Scientists support AGW". You have a funny idea of what constitutes the world and the validity of selectively sent (so not random) volunteer surveys. What proportion came from the USA and Canada?


Surveys can be used to support just about any conclusion (if one does enough of them, pre-load the questions and select favourable demographics etc)

In the USA for example a petition was circulating that had 37,000 signatures of scientists who disputed the science of AGW and climate change.

Sounds impressive?

Not really.

There are at least 7 million US civilians with degrees in science, and a big proportion of these are employed by fossil fuel industry and many of its spin off industries such as the vehicle sector etc.

That survey turned out to be an internal petition within the fossil fuel industry so 37,000 signatures isn't that meaningful. It would be like asking scientists within the environmental movement whether forests should be cleared for mining etc.

Surveys can be carried out using fundamental scientific, psychological and statistical principles incorporating random samples of meaningful size.

The other approach to take is to look at the official position of the major scientific organisations, societies, associations and Universities, research organisations etc.

You will find that in today's world there isn't one major scientific organisation that refutes the science that underpins AGW and climate change.

And most importantly ALL the fossil fuel related corporations have recognised the linked between human induced rising CO2 levels and global warming.

I suggest that you dig up the joint public declaration made by the major global fossil fuel corporations in the early 2000s (roughly 2003). Not only did they publically recognise the dangers of AGW but they recommended urgent action on a global level to mitigate the effects of climate change.

(And of course these corporate giants already knew from their own internal technical departments and research, that AGW was a serious issue. Through various pressure points, which included their own shareholders, they were compelled to make a joint public statement.)
Back to top
 

Mini Ice Age (2014-2029)
Dr Sircus cures cancer with Baking Soda and Magnesium - Jethro the MENTAL GIANT & his flute madness
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 ... 6 7 8 
Send Topic Print