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Super Typhoon Haiyan: A Hint of What’s to Come? (Read 5226 times)
namnugenot
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Re: Super Typhoon Haiyan: A Hint of What’s to Come?
Reply #45 - Nov 12th, 2013 at 10:51pm
 
greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 12th, 2013 at 7:22pm:
namnugenot wrote on Nov 12th, 2013 at 12:18pm:
# wrote on Nov 12th, 2013 at 11:52am:
namnugenot wrote on Nov 12th, 2013 at 10:09am:
...
So these are things the Lab government obviously were blind to as well ...
Tu quoque Quote:
Tu quoque /tuːˈkwoʊkwiː/, (Latin for "you, too" or "you, also") or the appeal to hypocrisy, is a logical fallacy that attempts to discredit the opponent's position by asserting the opponent's failure to act consistently in accordance with that position; it attempts to show that a criticism or objection applies equally to the person making it. This dismisses someone's point of view based on criticism of the person's inconsistency and not the position presented whereas a person's inconsistency should not discredit the position. Thus, it is a form of the ad hominem argument. To clarify, although the person being attacked might indeed be acting inconsistently or hypocritically, this does not invalidate their argument.



No it does not invalidate it...or validate it for that matter... But if someone is acting inconsistently or apparently hypocritically with their stated point of view it is an indication that they do not in fact hold that point of view. Or when that point of view diverges only on the basis of, and directed at, personal characteristics such as race, gender, religion, or politics it is irrational and the basis of such character traits as racism, etc.   



If you disagree with David B ( # ), he'll call you a troll.

Just wait and see.

Anyone who doesn't follow his religion is automatically labelled a troll.

It's his way of dealing with conflict (seeing as he doesn't have a convincing argument).

He's a troubled soul, that boy.




I not bothered by someone with such obvious and limited understanding.  Roll Eyes
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Chimp_Logic
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Re: Super Typhoon Haiyan: A Hint of What’s to Come?
Reply #46 - Nov 13th, 2013 at 12:30am
 
lee wrote on Nov 12th, 2013 at 7:53pm:
Chimp Logic

'e.g. Twiggy Forest is one of the richest people in Australia - top 4 at one stage. His company Fortesque, has been operating for at leas 22 years in Australia. Total tax paid during this period = zero.'

Fortescue Metals Group was founded in 2002. I was involved in pilotting dongas up to the mine in 2006.

The following from their website - in the overview

"Construction of Fortescue's initial mine, rail and port project commenced in early 2006. Incredibly, just two years later in early 2008, the rail and port infrastructure were completed and operations were underway at Cloudbreak, Fortescue's flagship mine.

In the first full year of operations, Fortescue mined, railed and shipped more than 27 million tonnes of iron ore to customers in China. The following year saw 40 million tonnes delivered and more than 55 million tonnes in FY12, current expansion plans are committed to increasing Fortescue's production capacity to 155 million tonnes per annum. "

Fortescue paid tax in 2012.


just in 2012?

what percentage tax did Fortescue pay in 2012 ?

(btw: Fortescue goes back further than 2002, even though it was essentially a 1 cent stock - way back to 1994)

To give just one example, Andrew ‘Twiggy’ Forest’s Fortescue Metals Group made $579 million
profit in 2010. However, it was able to deduct $176 million against its $174 million prima facie tax bill, meaning that it paid no tax in 2010 and will receive a $2 million tax credit to use next year.34


source: RORTS AND LOOPHOLES RORTS AND LOOPHOLES RORTS AND LOOPHOLES RORTS AND LOOPHOLES    Tax evasion, avoidance & tax breaks     ACTU Working Australia Tax Paper No. 3 September 2011   
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Re: Super Typhoon Haiyan: A Hint of What’s to Come?
Reply #47 - Nov 13th, 2013 at 12:57am
 
Fortescue under fire for not paying tax

Updated Wed 9 Nov 2011, 8:39pm AEDT


Andrew 'Twiggy' Forrest speaks to the media Photo: FMG chairman Andrew Forrest is at odds with the Government over the mining tax. (Andrew O'Connor: ABC News)

Related Story: FMG pushes for mining tax changes

Related Story: Tax does not target small miners: Treasury

Related Story: Mining tax bills introduced to Parliament


Map:  Australia
The Federal Government has attacked Fortescue Metals Group (FMG) chairman Andrew Forrest over the revelation his business has never paid company tax.

FMG head of government relations Julian Tapp told a parliamentary committee into the mining tax today that the company had not yet paid any company tax but was due to pay up to $800 million this financial year.

"We have not cut a corporate tax cheque to date, no," Mr Tapp said.

But Mr Tapp said the company had paid millions in state iron ore royalties.

"We're also paying circa $450m to $500m a year on current production levels in West Australian state royalties, so I do not agree that Fortescue does not contribute its fair share," Mr Tapp said.

Government Senate leader Chris Evans says the company has a market capitalisation of $20 billion.

"They have never paid a dollar in company tax to date and they want to resist having to pay the Mining Resource Rent Tax," Senator Evans said
.



Audio: Government attacks Fortescue over tax (PM)


"A large mining company owned by Australia's richest man won't pay tax ... that is not something the Australian people should accept."

FMG and the Government are at odds over the mining tax bills, which are being examined by the parliamentary committee.
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Mini Ice Age (2014-2029)
Dr Sircus cures cancer with Baking Soda and Magnesium - Jethro the MENTAL GIANT & his flute madness
 
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lee
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Re: Super Typhoon Haiyan: A Hint of What’s to Come?
Reply #48 - Nov 13th, 2013 at 11:03am
 
What you don't seem to understand is that mines have start up losses until income flows. They then claim these losses as deductions until exhausted.

It is no different to any business- even rental property.

I noticed you referenced 2011 year. It took six years from breking the ground to paying tax.

You should really look beyond the ACTU and it's spin for your information, They have little experience in running a business. Not recently anyway. The last one I can remember went bust.

Try the Company Reports.
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gizmo_2655
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Re: Super Typhoon Haiyan: A Hint of What’s to Come?
Reply #49 - Nov 13th, 2013 at 11:48am
 
Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 12th, 2013 at 4:02pm:
Swagman wrote on Nov 12th, 2013 at 12:11pm:
Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 12th, 2013 at 8:58am:
This is your solution so that the mining and fossil fuel corporations don't have to pay their fair share of tax?


That's the point they already pay their fair share of tax.

They also employ lots pf people that pay income tax.

They also indirectly provide business and infrstructure to communities that in turn pay taxes and employ more people.

Go and have a latte', eat a banana and donate 90% of your dole cheque  to Greenpeace Chimp, you'll feel better.


No they don't.

The pay very little tax in Australia.

e.g. Twiggy Forest is one of the richest people in Australia - top 4 at one stage. His company Fortesque, has been operating for at leas 22 years in Australia. Total tax paid during this period = zero.

83% of the mining industry is foreign owned and the dividends go offshore.

Last financial year, the ATO released tax figures for the top 100 corporations in Australia. These are the big boys. Of the top 100, 40% didn't pay any tax at all for 2011/12. The remaining 60% paid on average about 13% tax on profits

How much tax do you pay? I bet you wish you could get corporate welfare handouts, subsidies and tax breaks for your pathetic existence you filthy rotten skin of demented re-crystalised weasel semen


Actually Chimp, '83% foreign owned' is a monstrous exaggeration.

Out of 44 Australian mining companies that I just researched, only about 6 are foreign owned (maybe as many as 10 if you use having an overseas listing or offices as the definition).
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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
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Chimp_Logic
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Re: Super Typhoon Haiyan: A Hint of What’s to Come?
Reply #50 - Nov 13th, 2013 at 11:51am
 
lee wrote on Nov 13th, 2013 at 11:03am:
What you don't seem to understand is that mines have start up losses until income flows. They then claim these losses as deductions until exhausted.

It is no different to any business- even rental property.

I noticed you referenced 2011 year. It took six years from breking the ground to paying tax.

You should really look beyond the ACTU and it's spin for your information, They have little experience in running a business. Not recently anyway. The last one I can remember went bust.

Try the Company Reports.


They also get the land for pepper corn rents and sometimes are merely handed exploration licenses that are essentially boundless.

The Federal government in the early 1970s carried an economic analysis of what the mining and resrource sector was costing or contributing to the AUstralian economy/tax payer etc.

The study found that each year the mining and resource sectors were actually COSTING the Australian tax payer about 120 million dollars. The opposition at the time disputed this figure and conducted their own study with a private economics firm - they still found the industry was costing the tax payer about 25 million dollars per year.

And remember at that time more of the resource sectors were in AUstralian hands.

Today 83% of the Australian mining and energy sectors are foreign owned (US corporations control about 56%)

Australia is the dumbest country on the planet - by far.

There are no dumber people in the world than the AUstralian suckers.
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Chimp_Logic
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Re: Super Typhoon Haiyan: A Hint of What’s to Come?
Reply #51 - Nov 13th, 2013 at 11:57am
 
gizmo_2655 wrote on Nov 13th, 2013 at 11:48am:
Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 12th, 2013 at 4:02pm:
Swagman wrote on Nov 12th, 2013 at 12:11pm:
Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 12th, 2013 at 8:58am:
This is your solution so that the mining and fossil fuel corporations don't have to pay their fair share of tax?


That's the point they already pay their fair share of tax.

They also employ lots pf people that pay income tax.

They also indirectly provide business and infrstructure to communities that in turn pay taxes and employ more people.

Go and have a latte', eat a banana and donate 90% of your dole cheque  to Greenpeace Chimp, you'll feel better.


No they don't.

The pay very little tax in Australia.

e.g. Twiggy Forest is one of the richest people in Australia - top 4 at one stage. His company Fortesque, has been operating for at leas 22 years in Australia. Total tax paid during this period = zero.

83% of the mining industry is foreign owned and the dividends go offshore.

Last financial year, the ATO released tax figures for the top 100 corporations in Australia. These are the big boys. Of the top 100, 40% didn't pay any tax at all for 2011/12. The remaining 60% paid on average about 13% tax on profits

How much tax do you pay? I bet you wish you could get corporate welfare handouts, subsidies and tax breaks for your pathetic existence you filthy rotten skin of demented re-crystalised weasel semen


Actually Chimp, '83% foreign owned' is a monstrous exaggeration.

Out of 44 Australian mining companies that I just researched, only about 6 are foreign owned (maybe as many as 10 if you use having an overseas listing or offices as the definition).


List the 44 companies you researched and quote the percentage of the Australian mining sector that they control.

You do realise that BHP and RIO are 50% and 75% foreign owned respectively? Do you know how much of Australias mining goes through just these two corporate giants?

You quote garbage as usual because you cant handle the truth about your own country and your own existence within it

You should be ashamed at trying to lie and deceive in public just so that you can live with yourself as a pathetic scoundrel freak weasel
...
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Mini Ice Age (2014-2029)
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BatteriesNotIncluded
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Re: Super Typhoon Haiyan: A Hint of What’s to Come?
Reply #52 - Nov 13th, 2013 at 11:57am
 
Mums and dads have been talking about it for years: selling our minerals for a song and the kids can go to hell!
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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is.  It wouldn't be there without the tax payer.  Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know....  (swaggy) *
 
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namnugenot
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Re: Super Typhoon Haiyan: A Hint of What’s to Come?
Reply #53 - Nov 13th, 2013 at 1:16pm
 
lee wrote on Nov 13th, 2013 at 11:03am:
What you don't seem to understand is that mines have start up losses until income flows. They then claim these losses as deductions until exhausted.

It is no different to any business- even rental property.

I noticed you referenced 2011 year. It took six years from breking the ground to paying tax.

You should really look beyond the ACTU and it's spin for your information, They have little experience in running a business. Not recently anyway. The last one I can remember went bust.

Try the Company Reports.


They do pay considerable sums up front also...before they did up a bean.
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Re: Super Typhoon Haiyan: A Hint of What’s to Come?
Reply #54 - Nov 13th, 2013 at 4:32pm
 
What Typhoon Haiyan Means For Climate Change — And The UN’s Ongoing Climate Talks

By Ari Phillips on November 12, 2013 at 12:13 pm

...
Residents, waiting for relief supplies, are framed by a tattered Philippine flag amidst the devastation caused by Super Typhoon Haiyan.

CREDIT: (AP Photo/Bullit Marquez

Super Typhoon Haiyan has passed over the Philippines and is now weakening over China, but the impact it left on the the island nation in Southeast Asia is just setting in. At least 10,000 people are feared to have been killed according to the provincial government of Leyte, the worst hit of the nation’s provinces, with at least 1,774 bodies already officially accounted for.

According to the BBC, more than nine million people have been affected in the Philippines, with more than 600,000 people left homeless.

The United Nations has authorized $25 million in emergency funds to provide food, temporary shelters, health services, drinking water, and sanitation and has issued an appeal for a further $300 million.

“Many thousands of people are reported to have died and almost 10 million people have been affected … Let us all show our solidarity with the people of the Philippines at this time of need,” UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon said after describing images of the storm as “heartbreaking”.

Forty percent of the population in the Philippines lives on $2 or less per day and makeshift infrastructure makes many residences more vulnerable to extreme weather events.

Support has flowed in from more than 20 countries, Philippine authorities said.

The UN children’s fund UNICEF said a cargo plane carrying 60 tonnes of aid including shelters and medicine would arrive in the Philippines Tuesday, to be followed by deliveries of water purification and sanitation equipment.

The US aircraft carrier USS George Washington, which has 5,000 sailors and more than 80 aircraft aboard, headed from Hong Kong towards the Philippines on Tuesday. Five other US warships are also being deployed. The U.S. has also offered $20 million in humanitarian aid. Secretary of State John Kerry told Philippine Foreign Minister Albert del Rosario that the U.S. government will provide “all necessary assistance.”

The Typhoon’s Role In Climate Talks

Christiana Figueres, executive director of the UN framework convention on climate change (UNFCCC) said Monday that Super Typhoon Haiyan served as a backdrop of “sobering reality” for the 19th United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change, or COP19, happening this month in a football stadium in Warsaw, Poland.

“We must stay focused, exert maximum effort for the full time and produce a positive result, because what happens in this stadium is not a game,” Figueres told delegates. “There are not two sides, but the whole of humanity. There are no winners and losers, we all either win or lose in the future we make for ourselves.”

[continued ...]
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Re: Super Typhoon Haiyan: A Hint of What’s to Come?
Reply #55 - Nov 13th, 2013 at 4:33pm
 
[... continued]

Philippine Climate Change Commissioner and lead climate negotiator Naderev “Yeb” Saño also delivered some potent remarks during the opening session of COP19, saying, “with an apparent cruel twist of fate, my country is being tested by this hellstorm called Super Typhoon Haiyan”:

Quote:
    “It was so strong that if there was a Category 6, it would have fallen squarely in that box … To anyone outside who continues to deny the reality that is climate change, I dare them, I dare them to get off their ivory towers and away from the comfort of their armchairs. I dare them to go to the islands of the Pacific, the Caribbean, the Indian ocean and see the impacts of rising sea levels; to the mountainous regions of the Himalayas and the Andes to see communities confronting glacial floods, to the Arctic where communities grapple with the fast dwindling sea ice caps, to the large deltas of the Mekong, the Ganges, the Amazon, the Nile where lives and livelihoods are drowned, to the hills of Central America that confronts similar monstrous hurricanes, to the vast savannas of Africa where climate change has likewise become a matter of life and death as food and water become scarce.”


Saño deviated from his prepared remarks to pledge that he would refrain from eating at the convention until “a meaningful outcome is in sight.”

He called for global solidarity and enhanced ambition in confronting climate change, specifically calling on the COP to deliver meaningful progress on a pledge by rich countries to deliver $100 billion from 2020 to help developing countries cope with the impacts of climate change.

Saño went on to say that the typhoon made landfall in his family’s hometown, and that as he agonizes while waiting for the fate of friends and family the news that his brother survived the onslaught gives him renewed strength.

“Climate change will mean increased potential for more intense tropical storms and this will have profound implications on many communities, especially who struggle against the twin challenges of the development crisis and the climate change crisis,” Saño said.

The Typhoon’s Role In Climate Change

According to CNN, Super Typhoon Haiyan may have hit the Philippines with the strongest sustained cyclone winds on record at 195 mph. Scientists are still analyzing the data. Gusts reported at first landfall that rose to 235 mph would also be a record if confirmed.

Senior Presidential aide Rene Alemendras told the AP that preparation efforts anticipated the wind but not the water. Leyte and its capital city of Tacloban — home to 200,000 — was inundated by storm surges as high as 20 feet.

According to Climate Central, there is increasing evidence that climate change is making the impacts of storm surges worse by raising the underlying sea levels. However, studies still show a high amount of uncertainty about how global warming is affecting the frequency and intensity of West Pacific typhoons.

Professor Will Steffen, a researcher at Australian National University, told the Sydney Morning Herald that scientists understand how a hotter, moister climate is already affecting storms such as Haiyan.

“Once [cyclones] do form, they get most of their energy from the surface waters of the ocean,” Professor Steffen said. “We know sea-surface temperatures are warming pretty much around the planet, so that’s a pretty direct influence of climate change on the nature of the storm.”

Data compiled from the US National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration shows sea temperatures were about 0.5 to 1 degree above normal in the waters to the east of the Philippines as Haiyan began forming.

Kerry A. Emanuel, an atmospheric scientist at M.I.T., told the New York Times that that as the planet warms the difference between sea and air temperatures increases and that this differences fuels the increased intensity of storms like Haiyan.

“As you warm the climate, you basically raise the speed limit on hurricanes,” he said.
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lee
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Re: Super Typhoon Haiyan: A Hint of What’s to Come?
Reply #56 - Nov 13th, 2013 at 6:21pm
 
There has been some conjecture as to the maximum sustained wind speeds of various storms. Of course modern records only go as far as about 1960 for satellite imaging; before that it's anyone's guess.

Will Steffen's comment: Haiyan did not track over much of the warmer seas as I understand it  so that may be jumping the gun.

Jeff Masters was claiming the strongest storm in WORLD History- which given our instrumentation is only 100 odd years old, rather fanciful.

What made it worse was shelving ocean floor creating a bigger storm surge.
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Re: Super Typhoon Haiyan: A Hint of What’s to Come?
Reply #57 - Nov 13th, 2013 at 8:17pm
 
namnugenot wrote on Nov 12th, 2013 at 10:51pm:
... someone with such obvious and limited understanding.  ...
The difference is that I know it.

To paraphrase a Confucian aphorism: Quote:
The more a wise man learns, the more he comes to appreciate how much he does not know.

I've been studying the climate issue since the 1950s*. It eventually became clear that the subject is so complex that nobody who doesn't devote their life to it has any hope of developing a credible understanding.

I have other things to do with my life, so I just heed the best. The vast majority of the best are as certain as possible that humanity is destabilising the climate.

On the evidence of your behaviour, you lack both the necessary wisdom and the learning to realise the extent of your ignorance.

* You do know that Al Gore didn't invent global warming, don't you?
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greggerypeccary
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Re: Super Typhoon Haiyan: A Hint of What’s to Come?
Reply #58 - Nov 13th, 2013 at 8:22pm
 
namnugenot wrote on Nov 12th, 2013 at 10:51pm:
greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 12th, 2013 at 7:22pm:
namnugenot wrote on Nov 12th, 2013 at 12:18pm:
# wrote on Nov 12th, 2013 at 11:52am:
namnugenot wrote on Nov 12th, 2013 at 10:09am:
...
So these are things the Lab government obviously were blind to as well ...
Tu quoque Quote:
Tu quoque /tuːˈkwoʊkwiː/, (Latin for "you, too" or "you, also") or the appeal to hypocrisy, is a logical fallacy that attempts to discredit the opponent's position by asserting the opponent's failure to act consistently in accordance with that position; it attempts to show that a criticism or objection applies equally to the person making it. This dismisses someone's point of view based on criticism of the person's inconsistency and not the position presented whereas a person's inconsistency should not discredit the position. Thus, it is a form of the ad hominem argument. To clarify, although the person being attacked might indeed be acting inconsistently or hypocritically, this does not invalidate their argument.



No it does not invalidate it...or validate it for that matter... But if someone is acting inconsistently or apparently hypocritically with their stated point of view it is an indication that they do not in fact hold that point of view. Or when that point of view diverges only on the basis of, and directed at, personal characteristics such as race, gender, religion, or politics it is irrational and the basis of such character traits as racism, etc.   



If you disagree with David B ( # ), he'll call you a troll.

Just wait and see.

Anyone who doesn't follow his religion is automatically labelled a troll.

It's his way of dealing with conflict (seeing as he doesn't have a convincing argument).

He's a troubled soul, that boy.




I not bothered by someone with such obvious and limited understanding. 



Apparently, those most susceptible to brainwashing are insecure or guilt-ridden, or have a low self-esteem.

It's a shame.



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GOP = Guardians Of Paedophiles
 
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A fool is certain: an
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Re: Super Typhoon Haiyan: A Hint of What’s to Come?
Reply #59 - Nov 13th, 2013 at 8:29pm
 
greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 13th, 2013 at 8:22pm:
...
Apparently, those most susceptible to brainwashing are insecure or guilt-ridden, or have a low self-esteem.

It's a shame.
Young troll, you really are off your game, aren't you?

With the probable exception of your favourite body part*, you've quite lost your grip.

* greggerypeccary wrote on Sep 28th, 2013 at 5:56pm:
... I'm not adverse to onanism ...
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