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Super Typhoon Haiyan: A Hint of What’s to Come? (Read 5227 times)
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Super Typhoon Haiyan: A Hint of What’s to Come?
Nov 11th, 2013 at 3:21pm
 


Published: November 8th, 2013

By Andrew Freedman

Super Typhoon Haiyan was one of the most intense tropical cyclones at landfall on record when it struck the Philippines on Nov. 7. Its maximum sustained winds at landfall were pegged at 195 mph with gusts above 220 mph. Some meteorologists even proclaimed it to be the strongest tropical cyclone at landfall in recorded history.

Haiyan’s strength and the duration of its Category 5 intensity — the storm remained at peak Category 5 intensity for an incredible 48 straight hours — raises the question of whether manmade global warming tipped the odds in favor of such an extreme storm. After all, the global atmosphere contains 4 percent more water vapor than there was in the 1970s and global air and sea surface temperatures are higher now than they used to be, due in large part to manmade global warming as well as natural climate variability. These changes would, in theory at least, lead to stronger and wetter storms.

...
High-resolution satellite image of Super Typhoon Haiyan at its peak intensity on Nov. 7.
Credit: NOAA/CIRA
.

Hurricane researchers contacted by Climate Central said Haiyan is an example of the type of extreme storm that may become more frequent as the climate continues to warm. But there is more consensus about the stormier future than there is about the present. The researchers also urged caution in attributing Haiyan’s strength to global warming, given the lack of evidence that manmade global warming has had any detectable influence on Western Pacific typhoons, let alone tropical cyclones in general (an umbrella term that includes typhoons and hurricanes).

Brian McNoldy, a a senior research associate at the University of Miami, told Climate Central that, “While Haiyan was absolutely amazing, it's not alone. It's in an elite company of a handful of other tropical cyclones scattered across the decades and across the world.” 

McNoldy downplayed global warming’s role in helping to fuel Super Typhoon Haiyan, saying, “We don't get to pick and choose which storms are enhanced by a warmer climate and which ones aren't, so this was just as subject to this year's climate as the numerous others that weren't so impressive. Extremely intense tropical cyclones are rare, but have always been a part of nature — we don't need to find an excuse for them.”

Gabe Vecchi, a research oceanographer with the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA), said that if global warming altered Haiyan, it did not do so to a significant extent. “I expect that the contribution of global warming to Haiyan's extreme intensity is likely to have been small, relative to other factors like weather fluctuations and climate variability."

...
Graphic showing the total amount of heat energy available for Super Typhoon Haiyan to absorb, not just on the surface, but integrated through the water column. Deeper, warmer pools of water are colored purple, though any region colored from pink to purple has sufficient energy to fuel storm intensification. The dotted line represents the best-track and forecast data as of 16:00 UTC on Nov. 7.
Credit: NOAA.

Climate research has not yet provided a clear picture of how global warming is altering tropical cyclones around the world. Importantly, though, studies are providing clues that we may be in for a much stormier future, with more intense storms that bring with them stronger winds, heavier rainfall, and greater storm surge due to sea level rise.

First, there's what the science says about the present state of the atmosphere. Between the U.N. Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change’s (IPCC) report in 2007 and the latest report released earlier this year, the science has become less certain on global warming's influence on such storms. That's partly because the historical records of tropical cyclones, be they hurricanes in the Atlantic or Pacific Typhoons, are full of gaps in the data, varying methodologies and inaccuracies.

[continued ...]
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Re: Super Typhoon Haiyan: A Hint of What’s to Come?
Reply #1 - Nov 11th, 2013 at 3:22pm
 
[... continued]

The most recent IPCC report said: “Globally, there is low confidence in attribution of changes in tropical cyclone activity to human influence.” The IPCC found that insufficient observational evidence, a lack of understanding regarding the physical connection between manmade climate change and tropical storms, and considerable disagreement between studies justified downplaying any detectable changes in tropical cyclones due to global warming.

What is clearer and more worrisome than the present picture, though, is what is expected to happen in coming decades, assuming that the climate continues to warm as expected. In general, the latest IPCC report found that manmade global warming is likely to make tropical cyclones produce more rainfall and have higher wind speeds than they typically do now, but the frequency of these storms may decline in some ocean basins.

Monster storms like Haiyan may, in fact, become more common in the future, thanks to a readier supply of warm ocean waters and possible changes to atmospheric wind shear, which can tear storms apart, in some ocean basins that could aid such storms (such changes could also inhibit storms in other ocean basins). Some studies have found that manmade emissions of soot in South Asia, in addition to global warming, have already lessened wind shear over the Indian Ocean, leading to an increase in tropical cyclone intensities there in recent years.

“The available modelling studies that are capable of producing very strong cyclones typically project substantial increases in the frequency of the most intense cyclones and it is more likely than not that this increase will be larger than 10 percent in some basins,” the IPCC report said. Given that the strongest storms tend to be responsible for a disproportionate share of storm damage and loss of life, the IPCC report said, “It should be emphasized that this metric is generally more important to physical and societal impacts than overall frequency or mean intensity.”

...
Projected changes in tropical cyclone statistics. All values represent expected percent change in the average over period 2081–2100 relative to 2000–2019, under a high emissions scenario. The metrics presented here include the total annual frequency of tropical storms, the annual frequency of Category 4 and 5 storms, the mean lifetime maximum intensity of tropical cyclones, and the precipitation rate within 200 km of the storm center at its most intense point. The solid blue line is the best guess of the expected percent change, and the coloured bar provides the likely confidence interval for this value.
Credit: IPCC Working Group II.


Vecchi, who has published a slew of scientific papers on hurricanes and global warming, told Climate Central that it may not be until the end of this century that a global warming signal emerges in tropical cyclone records.

“ . . . Globally, and by the end of the 21st century, we expect global warming to make tropical cyclones (hurricanes, typhoons and cyclones) more intense, and the frequency of the most intense storms (like Haiyan) is expected to increase,” Vecchi said in an email. “However, we have much less confidence in what global warming should do in each individual basin.”

While the scientific consensus clearly skews toward stronger, wetter, but less frequent tropical cyclones in the coming decades, there are some studies that depart from that view. In fact, a study published in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences in July found that tropical cyclones are likely to become both stronger and more frequent in the years to come, with a huge jump in storm frequency and intensity in the Northwest Pacific Ocean Basin. The study, by MIT hurricane expert Kerry Emanuel, used the latest generation of computer models to arrive at its results, but it has not yet been backed by subsequent research from other groups.

“It is premature to judge how robust this finding will be” once its techniques are replicated across different computer models and compared to other similar methods, Tom Knutson, a researcher at NOAA’s Geophysical Fluid Dynamics Laboratory in Princeton, N.J., said.
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Re: Super Typhoon Haiyan: A Hint of What’s to Come?
Reply #2 - Nov 11th, 2013 at 4:44pm
 
...Due to the complex nature of the earths systems, which includes the Climate Systems, it's not possible to link AGW with any isolated climatic event. Even for a huge typhoon such as this.

What is needed is a comprehensive data base that includes numerous events and also a baseline for comparison.

Statistically significantly Trends are what is important. For typhoons for example, the intensity and frequency data for Typhoons in different regions over long time periods is  needed.

it doesn't look good
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Re: Super Typhoon Haiyan: A Hint of What’s to Come?
Reply #3 - Nov 11th, 2013 at 5:29pm
 
lol the dills are out with the MAY word again. oh look a storm that doesnt happen often. Yeh that MAY be whats to come if only the earth could manipulate climate data and get the dog to eat its homework on hockey sticks, it may start playing ball.

LOL u tools
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Re: Super Typhoon Haiyan: A Hint of What’s to Come?
Reply #4 - Nov 11th, 2013 at 5:33pm
 
I re-post this here, as it is relevant.

perceptions_now wrote on Nov 10th, 2013 at 8:36pm:
Typhoon Haiyan: widespread destruction in central Philippines city of Tacloban


Local TV pictures show the terrrible aftermath of the the typhoon on Tacloban, where a local police chief estimates thousands have perished, as the reacue operation gets underway in many other areas of the country.

The death toll from one of the strongest storms on record that ravaged the central Philippine city of Tacloban could reach 10,000 people, officials said after the extent of massive devastation became apparent.


Regional police chief Elmer Soria said he was briefed by Leyte provincial Governor Dominic Petilla late on Saturday and told there were about 10,000 deaths on the island, mostly by drowning and from collapsed buildings.

The governor's figure was based on reports from village officials in areas where Typhoon Haiyan slammed on Friday.

About 300-400 bodies have already been recovered, he said.

The typhoon barrelled through six central Philippine islands on Friday, wiping away buildings and levelling seaside homes. 

Link  -
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/philippines/10438796/Typhoon-Haiy...
============================================
The article also has an embedded video, showing some of the damage.

What we know, is that this is the strongest storm to hit land, with winds gusting up to 380 kph.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/08/typhoon-haiyan-biggest-storms

What we don't know, for sure, is whether this is a precursor of things to come, But it certainly fits with what the Climate Change scientists have been saying, with more/serious droughts & more/serious storms & other Climate Changes!

And, it is certainly fitting the patterns already emerging, so it would seem that the physical property damage shown here in the Philippines & the high number of likely deaths, is something we will see repeated, with a growing regularity, over the decades to come! 

Oh & anyone in Australia or elsewhere, who thinks this has nothing to do with them, THINK AGAIN!

Insurance is a commodity we ALL NEED & with international Re-insurance arrangements the way they are,  WHETHER IT IS A TYPHOON IN THE PHILIPPINES, A CYCLONE IN DARWIN OR QUEENSLAND OR HURRICANES IN NEW YORK, WE WILL ALL PAY BY WAY OF INCREASED INSURANCE COSTS!

Finally, whatever the final cost of lives in the Philippines &/or in Vietnam/China, MY THOUGHTS ARE WITH THE PEOPLES OF THOSE NATIONS!

In particular, however, my thoughts are with a Microsoft employee Ferdinand, who is based in the Philippines & who I spoke to on Thursday, regarding a problem with Email deliveries. Ferdinand was going to check it out & ring me back on Friday, but I have no yet heard back from him!      

I hope he has come thru ok!


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Re: Super Typhoon Haiyan: A Hint of What’s to Come?
Reply #5 - Nov 11th, 2013 at 5:34pm
 
I re-post this here, as it is relevant.

perceptions_now wrote on Nov 11th, 2013 at 12:23pm:
A few observations -
1) I have heard all the usual lines of denial, such as the climate is always changing & that is correct, as can be seen here, for the last 400,000 years -
http://www.johnenglander.net/sites/default/files/images/T%20CO2%20SL%20current%2...

2) However, that line is largely erroneous, because it is only the affect on humanity & the effects by humanity which are of interest, for us.
In this respect, WE (humanity) have only recently (the last 200 years) grown into numbers sufficiently large, where our sheer numbers could have any substantial effect on the Global Environment AND where "some" of those Global Climate Changes will then have a substantial affect on us, because we now inhabit so much of the planet & that the density of our habitation is now so great, that these changes have so much greater affect now, than at any previous stage of our relatively short "occupation" of this planet.

3) So, whilst the Climate has always "changed", we have not been around long enough for those changes to materially affect us, except for the last Ice Age, which nearly saw us become extinct!

4) As can be seen from the above chart, we are now at or approaching the top of the current warming phase, so unless our involvement kicks us completely out of the usual cycle, we will start into the next Ice Age part of the cycle, in the not too distant future.
In the mean time, we will hit Peak warming & with that will come some Peak weather/climate events, such as extra strong storms, floods and droughts just to mention a few, plus likely large rises in sea levels.

Whether anyone believes in human caused climate change, is largely irrelevant, we are now at  the infection point when change will happen anyway and if it does happen over the decades ahead, as seems likely from the best current scientific & anecdotal evidence, then it will happen at a once in history time for humanity, just as our Global Population has acquired "maximum carry capacity", so the outcomes will also reflect our exposure & probably our lack of mitigation against the risks!

Oh & it is also interesting how little comment there is, concerning the human element of the current event/disaster, with deaths expected to number in the many thousands, damage expected to decimate entire regions and peoples well being for quite some time & no, I have not yet heard from Ferdinand!
 
   
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Re: Super Typhoon Haiyan: A Hint of What’s to Come?
Reply #6 - Nov 11th, 2013 at 6:16pm
 
perceptions_now wrote on Nov 11th, 2013 at 5:34pm:
I re-post this here, as it is relevant.

perceptions_now wrote on Nov 11th, 2013 at 12:23pm:
A few observations -
1) I have heard all the usual lines of denial, such as the climate is always changing & that is correct, as can be seen here, for the last 400,000 years -
http://www.johnenglander.net/sites/default/files/images/T%20CO2%20SL%20current%2...

2) However, that line is largely erroneous, because it is only the affect on humanity & the effects by humanity which are of interest, for us.
In this respect, WE (humanity) have only recently (the last 200 years) grown into numbers sufficiently large, where our sheer numbers could have any substantial effect on the Global Environment AND where "some" of those Global Climate Changes will then have a substantial affect on us, because we now inhabit so much of the planet & that the density of our habitation is now so great, that these changes have so much greater affect now, than at any previous stage of our relatively short "occupation" of this planet.

3) So, whilst the Climate has always "changed", we have not been around long enough for those changes to materially affect us, except for the last Ice Age, which nearly saw us become extinct!

4) As can be seen from the above chart, we are now at or approaching the top of the current warming phase, so unless our involvement kicks us completely out of the usual cycle, we will start into the next Ice Age part of the cycle, in the not too distant future.
In the mean time, we will hit Peak warming & with that will come some Peak weather/climate events, such as extra strong storms, floods and droughts just to mention a few, plus likely large rises in sea levels.

Whether anyone believes in human caused climate change, is largely irrelevant, we are now at  the infection point when change will happen anyway and if it does happen over the decades ahead, as seems likely from the best current scientific & anecdotal evidence, then it will happen at a once in history time for humanity, just as our Global Population has acquired "maximum carry capacity", so the outcomes will also reflect our exposure & probably our lack of mitigation against the risks!

Oh & it is also interesting how little comment there is, concerning the human element of the current event/disaster, with deaths expected to number in the many thousands, damage expected to decimate entire regions and peoples well being for quite some time & no, I have not yet heard from Ferdinand!
 
   



And I'll re-post my answer here too as it is relevant.
In reference to your last comment you might read earlier in your own post ie lots more people = lots more people effected = lots more deaths not necessarily and in all probability NOT more severe events. The US city of Galveston in 1900 when there were many fewer people, was hit by a hurricane that caused about 10,000 deaths. If such an event were to happen today you would really have something to lather up about but the truth is had that happened at that time where the current one hit you would have never known it had ever happened. All this is is opportunism, anecdotal conjecture and finger pointing...100%....science...0%.

But hey who needs science when you can suck the marrow out of events like these. I'm sure if you look hard enough you can post a picture or 2...maybe a drowned kid face down...that would be a coup...plenty of mileage there!


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Re: Super Typhoon Haiyan: A Hint of What’s to Come?
Reply #7 - Nov 11th, 2013 at 6:36pm
 
Terrible disaster. Over 10,000 people killed. My thoughts go to those affected.
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Re: Super Typhoon Haiyan: A Hint of What’s to Come?
Reply #8 - Nov 11th, 2013 at 6:41pm
 
# wrote on Nov 11th, 2013 at 3:22pm:
[... continued]

The most recent IPCC report said: “Globally, there is low confidence in attribution of changes in tropical cyclone activity to human influence.” The IPCC found that insufficient observational evidence, a lack of understanding regarding the physical connection between manmade climate change and tropical storms, and considerable disagreement between studies justified downplaying any detectable changes in tropical cyclones due to global warming.



Correct. The only reasonably high confidence prediction was that cyclones would migrate further South in Australia.

The emphasis is lack of data as yet. That doesn't mean no effect - it means no data. It's too early to detect anything significant at this early stage.
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Re: Super Typhoon Haiyan: A Hint of What’s to Come?
Reply #9 - Nov 11th, 2013 at 6:42pm
 
progressiveslol wrote on Nov 11th, 2013 at 5:29pm:
lol the dills are out with the MAY word again. oh look a storm that doesnt happen often. Yeh that MAY be whats to come if only the earth could manipulate climate data and get the dog to eat its homework on hockey sticks, it may start playing ball.

LOL u tools


just another data point on the graph mister smelly.

you do know how the scientific analysis is done you flabby de-fragmented foul stenching weasel dropping mould maggot
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Re: Super Typhoon Haiyan: A Hint of What’s to Come?
Reply #10 - Nov 11th, 2013 at 6:50pm
 
muso wrote on Nov 11th, 2013 at 6:36pm:
Terrible disaster. Over 10,000 people killed. My thoughts go to those affected.


Abbott pulled out the cheque straight away with an enormous $400,000 in aid. Whats that, about $40 to every family of he dead...

And of course even this aid wont reach the people who most need it. Most likely it goes to Australian corporations or NGOs that are already set up in the country. You just never know, maybe $5.47 may reach the families.

Abbott-oir the great Christian humanitarian of our times.

A man who has already slashed foreign aid to about half what the international community sets as a minimum for an affluent nation. Cuba provides more foreign aid on a per capita and as a percentage of GDP that Australia does.

Australia emits a foul stench in the UN at the moment, and in numerous Embassies around the world
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Re: Super Typhoon Haiyan: A Hint of What’s to Come?
Reply #11 - Nov 11th, 2013 at 7:31pm
 
namnugenot wrote on Nov 11th, 2013 at 6:16pm:
perceptions_now wrote on Nov 11th, 2013 at 5:34pm:
I re-post this here, as it is relevant.

perceptions_now wrote on Nov 11th, 2013 at 12:23pm:
A few observations -
1) I have heard all the usual lines of denial, such as the climate is always changing & that is correct, as can be seen here, for the last 400,000 years -
http://www.johnenglander.net/sites/default/files/images/T%20CO2%20SL%20current%2...

2) However, that line is largely erroneous, because it is only the affect on humanity & the effects by humanity which are of interest, for us.
In this respect, WE (humanity) have only recently (the last 200 years) grown into numbers sufficiently large, where our sheer numbers could have any substantial effect on the Global Environment AND where "some" of those Global Climate Changes will then have a substantial affect on us, because we now inhabit so much of the planet & that the density of our habitation is now so great, that these changes have so much greater affect now, than at any previous stage of our relatively short "occupation" of this planet.

3) So, whilst the Climate has always "changed", we have not been around long enough for those changes to materially affect us, except for the last Ice Age, which nearly saw us become extinct!

4) As can be seen from the above chart, we are now at or approaching the top of the current warming phase, so unless our involvement kicks us completely out of the usual cycle, we will start into the next Ice Age part of the cycle, in the not too distant future.
In the mean time, we will hit Peak warming & with that will come some Peak weather/climate events, such as extra strong storms, floods and droughts just to mention a few, plus likely large rises in sea levels.

Whether anyone believes in human caused climate change, is largely irrelevant, we are now at  the infection point when change will happen anyway and if it does happen over the decades ahead, as seems likely from the best current scientific & anecdotal evidence, then it will happen at a once in history time for humanity, just as our Global Population has acquired "maximum carry capacity", so the outcomes will also reflect our exposure & probably our lack of mitigation against the risks!

Oh & it is also interesting how little comment there is, concerning the human element of the current event/disaster, with deaths expected to number in the many thousands, damage expected to decimate entire regions and peoples well being for quite some time & no, I have not yet heard from Ferdinand!
 
   



And I'll re-post my answer here too as it is relevant.
In reference to your last comment you might read earlier in your own post ie lots more people = lots more people effected = lots more deaths not necessarily and in all probability NOT more severe events. The US city of Galveston in 1900 when there were many fewer people, was hit by a hurricane that caused about 10,000 deaths. If such an event were to happen today you would really have something to lather up about but the truth is had that happened at that time where the current one hit you would have never known it had ever happened. All this is is opportunism, anecdotal conjecture and finger pointing...100%....science...0%.

But hey who needs science when you can suck the marrow out of events like these. I'm sure if you look hard enough you can post a picture or 2...maybe a drowned kid face down...that would be a coup...plenty of mileage there!





Such an event, just did happen!

It is not anecdotal, it is not finger pointing... 0%, it is Fact ...100% and now is the appropriate time to review our risk mitigation, because if we leave it until the outcomes are absolutely obvious, then it will be far too late and we maywill have given any chance of avoiding the worst outcomes!

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Re: Super Typhoon Haiyan: A Hint of What’s to Come?
Reply #12 - Nov 11th, 2013 at 7:57pm
 
progressiveslol wrote on Nov 11th, 2013 at 5:29pm:
...
LOL u tools
Much as you and your fellow denialists might like to avoid responsibility, the best science suggests that our behaviour risks increasing the prevalence of extreme weather events. Events like Haiyan and the conditions that precipitated the recent bush fires in NSW. Evidently, you're ignorant enough to believe you know better.

muso wrote on Nov 11th, 2013 at 6:41pm:
...
The emphasis is lack of data as yet. That doesn't mean no effect - it means no data. It's too early to detect anything significant at this early stage.
Unfortunately, by the time we have enough data to prove, beyond the unreasonable doubt favoured by denialists, that we're destabilising the planet's climate, preventing catastrophe will be prohibitively expensive. Assuming, of course, that it's possible.
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Re: Super Typhoon Haiyan: A Hint of What’s to Come?
Reply #13 - Nov 11th, 2013 at 9:26pm
 
perceptions_now wrote on Nov 11th, 2013 at 7:31pm:
namnugenot wrote on Nov 11th, 2013 at 6:16pm:
perceptions_now wrote on Nov 11th, 2013 at 5:34pm:
I re-post this here, as it is relevant.

perceptions_now wrote on Nov 11th, 2013 at 12:23pm:
A few observations -
1) I have heard all the usual lines of denial, such as the climate is always changing & that is correct, as can be seen here, for the last 400,000 years -
http://www.johnenglander.net/sites/default/files/images/T%20CO2%20SL%20current%2...

2) However, that line is largely erroneous, because it is only the affect on humanity & the effects by humanity which are of interest, for us.
In this respect, WE (humanity) have only recently (the last 200 years) grown into numbers sufficiently large, where our sheer numbers could have any substantial effect on the Global Environment AND where "some" of those Global Climate Changes will then have a substantial affect on us, because we now inhabit so much of the planet & that the density of our habitation is now so great, that these changes have so much greater affect now, than at any previous stage of our relatively short "occupation" of this planet.

3) So, whilst the Climate has always "changed", we have not been around long enough for those changes to materially affect us, except for the last Ice Age, which nearly saw us become extinct!

4) As can be seen from the above chart, we are now at or approaching the top of the current warming phase, so unless our involvement kicks us completely out of the usual cycle, we will start into the next Ice Age part of the cycle, in the not too distant future.
In the mean time, we will hit Peak warming & with that will come some Peak weather/climate events, such as extra strong storms, floods and droughts just to mention a few, plus likely large rises in sea levels.

Whether anyone believes in human caused climate change, is largely irrelevant, we are now at  the infection point when change will happen anyway and if it does happen over the decades ahead, as seems likely from the best current scientific & anecdotal evidence, then it will happen at a once in history time for humanity, just as our Global Population has acquired "maximum carry capacity", so the outcomes will also reflect our exposure & probably our lack of mitigation against the risks!

Oh & it is also interesting how little comment there is, concerning the human element of the current event/disaster, with deaths expected to number in the many thousands, damage expected to decimate entire regions and peoples well being for quite some time & no, I have not yet heard from Ferdinand!
 
   



And I'll re-post my answer here too as it is relevant.
In reference to your last comment you might read earlier in your own post ie lots more people = lots more people effected = lots more deaths not necessarily and in all probability NOT more severe events. The US city of Galveston in 1900 when there were many fewer people, was hit by a hurricane that caused about 10,000 deaths. If such an event were to happen today you would really have something to lather up about but the truth is had that happened at that time where the current one hit you would have never known it had ever happened. All this is is opportunism, anecdotal conjecture and finger pointing...100%....science...0%.

But hey who needs science when you can suck the marrow out of events like these. I'm sure if you look hard enough you can post a picture or 2...maybe a drowned kid face down...that would be a coup...plenty of mileage there!





Such an event, just did happen!

It is not anecdotal, it is not finger pointing... 0%, it is Fact ...100% and now is the appropriate time to review our risk mitigation, because if we leave it until the outcomes are absolutely obvious, then it will be far too late and we maywill have given any chance of avoiding the worst outcomes!



It's all over, the planet is cooked.

No hope, too late to do anything now except wait for the inevitable grilling.

Pity, human civilisation has so much potential - a potential that turned into self destructiveness

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Re: Super Typhoon Haiyan: A Hint of What’s to Come?
Reply #14 - Nov 11th, 2013 at 9:28pm
 
Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 11th, 2013 at 9:26pm:
Pity, human civilisation has so much potential - a potential that turned into self destructiveness




Really?

What "potential"?

iPhone 10?

Roll Eyes
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GOP = Guardians Of Paedophiles
 
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