Australian Politics Forum - Climate Change Denial is Reality Denial

perceptions_now

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Re: Climate Change Denial is Reality Denial
Reply #45 - Nov 12^th, 2013 at 10:32pm

lee wrote on Nov 12^th, 2013 at 8:53pm:

But the IPCC has low confidence in more powerful Storms and longer Droughts. NASA has announced a new record for Antarctic Sea Ice extent and Arctic Sea Ice has improved (albeit from historic recorded lows).

IPCC report -
Most of the global average warming over the past 50 years is very likely due to anthropogenic GHG increases and it is
likely that there is a discernible human-induced warming averaged over each continent.

Risks of extreme weather events -
Responses to some recent extreme climate events reveal higher levels of vulnerability in both developing and developed countries than was assessed in the TAR. There is now higher confidence in the projected in-creases in droughts, heat waves and floods, as well as their ad-verse impacts. As summarised in Table 3.2, increases in drought,
heat waves and floods are projected in many regions and would have mostly adverse impacts, including increased water stress and wild fire frequency, adverse effects on food production, adverse health effects, increased flood risk and extreme high sea level, and damage to infrastructure.

Impacts are very likely to increase due to increased frequencies and intensities of some extreme weather events. Recent events have demonstrated the vulnerability of some sectors and regions, includ-ing in developed countries, to heat waves, tropical cyclones, floods and drought, providing stronger reasons for concern as compared to the findings of the TAR.
http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-report/ar4/syr/ar4_syr.pdf

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namnugenot

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Re: Climate Change Denial is Reality Denial
Reply #46 - Nov 12^th, 2013 at 10:58pm

perceptions_now wrote on Nov 12^th, 2013 at 10:32pm:

lee wrote on Nov 12^th, 2013 at 8:53pm:

But the IPCC has low confidence in more powerful Storms and longer Droughts. NASA has announced a new record for Antarctic Sea Ice extent and Arctic Sea Ice has improved (albeit from historic recorded lows).

IPCC report -
Most of the global average warming over the past 50 years is very likely due to anthropogenic GHG increases and it is
likely that there is a discernible human-induced warming averaged over each continent.

Risks of extreme weather events -
Responses to some recent extreme climate events reveal higher levels of vulnerability in both developing and developed countries than was assessed in the TAR. There is now higher confidence in the projected in-creases in droughts, heat waves and floods, as well as their ad-verse impacts. As summarised in Table 3.2, increases in drought,
heat waves and floods are projected in many regions and would have mostly adverse impacts, including increased water stress and wild fire frequency, adverse effects on food production, adverse health effects, increased flood risk and extreme high sea level, and damage to infrastructure.

Impacts are very likely to increase due to increased frequencies and intensities of some extreme weather events. Recent events have demonstrated the vulnerability of some sectors and regions, includ-ing in developed countries, to heat waves, tropical cyclones, floods and drought, providing stronger reasons for concern as compared to the findings of the TAR.
http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-report/ar4/syr/ar4_syr.pdf

What a shame there are people who know history somewhat better than you do.

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perceptions_now

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Re: Climate Change Denial is Reality Denial
Reply #47 - Nov 12^th, 2013 at 11:00pm

namnugenot wrote on Nov 12^th, 2013 at 10:58pm:

perceptions_now wrote on Nov 12^th, 2013 at 10:32pm:

lee wrote on Nov 12^th, 2013 at 8:53pm:

But the IPCC has low confidence in more powerful Storms and longer Droughts. NASA has announced a new record for Antarctic Sea Ice extent and Arctic Sea Ice has improved (albeit from historic recorded lows).

IPCC report -
Most of the global average warming over the past 50 years is very likely due to anthropogenic GHG increases and it is
likely that there is a discernible human-induced warming averaged over each continent.

Risks of extreme weather events -
Responses to some recent extreme climate events reveal higher levels of vulnerability in both developing and developed countries than was assessed in the TAR. There is now higher confidence in the projected in-creases in droughts, heat waves and floods, as well as their ad-verse impacts. As summarised in Table 3.2, increases in drought,
heat waves and floods are projected in many regions and would have mostly adverse impacts, including increased water stress and wild fire frequency, adverse effects on food production, adverse health effects, increased flood risk and extreme high sea level, and damage to infrastructure.

Impacts are very likely to increase due to increased frequencies and intensities of some extreme weather events. Recent events have demonstrated the vulnerability of some sectors and regions, includ-ing in developed countries, to heat waves, tropical cyclones, floods and drought, providing stronger reasons for concern as compared to the findings of the TAR.
http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-report/ar4/syr/ar4_syr.pdf

What a shame there are people who know history somewhat better than you do.

What a shame, this is not about the past, it is about the future!

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perceptions_now

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Re: Climate Change Denial is Reality Denial
Reply #48 - Nov 13^th, 2013 at 8:43am

Emma wrote on Nov 12^th, 2013 at 9:33pm:

perceptions_now wrote on Nov 12^th, 2013 at 8:15pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 12^th, 2013 at 12:55pm:

My take on your questions:

perceptions_now wrote on Nov 12^th, 2013 at 12:27pm:

To those who are not willing to mitigate against the Risks of Climate Change, I would say -
1) There are Consequences, for all Actions & In-actions!

2) Is your major reason, for not taking whatever Mitigation Actions we are capable of, that you -
a) don't believe that the cause is Human related?
b) simply don't believe that the climate is changing at all?
c) believe the climate is changing, but we can not do anything about it?
If you agree with one of the above, please explain your reasons?
T

he climate is changing a bit. We are not wholly responsible for all the changes and have no way of knowing which effects are due to our causes and which aren't. This way, mitigating is a lot more complex than a tax here and a lightbulb there.

3) Scientific opinion is clearly saying that Climate Change is happening and that outcomes will worsen, if Mitigating actions are not taken.

Scientific predictions regarding degrees of warming/cooling and centimetres of sea and ice and other measurables have a pretty poor record in this area. The modelling hasn't been very accurate so far, therefore I am not entirely confident in the predictions being made now.

So, do you -
a) Generally not believe what scientists say? Well, what exactly are they saying?
b) Not believe, what Climate scientists in particular are saying?

They are talking about their data. It's all the activists and persuaders who are not to be believed.

c) Believe there is some sort of Political or other Conspiracy, for "some reason"?

Yes, by the activists, absolutely. The scientists are just going about examining the various minutiae of their own expertise in a fantastically complex system nobody has a comprehensive understanding of (except activists, of course)

With respect, this issue is not about activists & I have no doubt that some of that is going happening, on both sides of the "discussion".

The central issues are -
1) Do we believe the information put up by the vast majority of scientists, particularly those who are experts in that particular area of science and I think we are obliged to, otherwise we would disregard all expert scientific information & quickly revert to the dark ages?
2) Does the scientific & anecdotal evidence substantially back up, what those best experts are saying and it certainly & seems to be substantially heading in those directions, with increasingly ferocious storms, Droughts & disappearing Ice Caps?
3) So If, as I do, we agree that the best available expert information, then we need to consider what the likely outcomes may be, IF the experts are correct and if those outcomes are sufficiently nasty, as is the case, then we need to employ any & all measures to try to avoid the worst of those likely outcomes!

Given the dire outcomes suggested by the experts, we can not wait, as it will then be far too late & it may already be so. Therefore, we must move, heaven (if there be any such thing) & EARTH & we should leave no stone unturned, until we know we have given it our best shot, to try to secure a reasonable future for, for our sons & daughters, our grand children and indeed future generations & a future for humanity?

Perceptions Now.. you present the only RATIONAL path that we humans must follow.. given the situation of climate change.

It is senseless to argue against it... and besides ALL THAT...

whatever measures we take,.. to lessen our impact on our only home... can only be GOOD... even if ? this environmental disaster, as predicted, does not prove out.

No effort we make is wasted.. every single thing we do the lessen our 'footprint' must be GOOD.

Some might argue,, ooh ooh what about the job losses.. and the loss of profits..?? if we pursue renewable energy.. at the expense of fossil fuels.?? What ??

This is a whole new frontier.. this 'renewable energy concept '.. if we'd just ditch the old paradigms.. the old world way of doing things.. and embrace the new... the opportunities are , quite literally,..limitless.

Emma,
There are certainly still many unknowns at this point in time & it is quite possible that many things may remain unknown & in fact, unknowable, But on the balance of probabilities & likely outcomes & after having looked at "most" angles, I think we must take action/s to try and prevent the worst of the likely Climate Change outcomes Or whatever we are capable of doing!

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perceptions_now

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Re: Climate Change Denial is Reality Denial
Reply #49 - Nov 13^th, 2013 at 8:49am

Soren wrote on Nov 12^th, 2013 at 9:56pm:

perceptions_now wrote on Nov 12^th, 2013 at 8:15pm:

The central issues are -
1) Do we believe the information put up by the vast majority of scientists, particularly those who are experts in that particular area of science and I think we are obliged to, otherwise we would disregard all expert scientific information & quickly revert to the dark ages?

Very little of the information is put out but scientists. Most of what people know about AGW are from the media, very often briefed by he Al Gore mob and their like.

2) Does the scientific & anecdotal evidence substantially back up, what those best experts are saying and it certainly & seems to be substantially heading in those directions, with increasingly ferocious storms, Droughts & disappearing Ice Caps?

No. You are being taken in by the sensationalist peaks.

3) So If, as I do, we agree that the best available expert information, then we need to consider what the likely outcomes may be, IF the experts are correct and if those outcomes are sufficiently nasty, as is the case, then we need to employ any & all measures to try to avoid the worst of those likely outcomes!

There is no expert consensus. Scientists rarely work on the big picture. When thy do, like Michael 'Hockey Stick' Mann, they are caught out for overreaching for non-scintific kudos. Any and All means - that is a really dumb approach. A bit fascists/stalinist if you ask me. Full of rara zeal, very short on actual smarts. It;s the 'gotta do SOMETHING, Reg, anything" urge. Silly.

Given the dire outcomes suggested by the experts, we can not wait, as it will then be far too late & it may already be so. Therefore, we must move, heaven (if there be any such thing) & EARTH & we should leave no stone unturned, until we know we have given it our best shot, to try to secure a reasonable future for, for our sons & daughters, our grand children and indeed future generations & a future for humanity?

Empty, emotionally correct rhetoric. What does it ACTUALLY take to move heaven & earth? And if you do not mean empty puffery - what exactly do you ACTUALLY propose? Or are you simply throwing your arms in the air, there is nothing particular you can suggest but being a good drone, you will go along with ANYTHING and EVERYTHING some other people, who may or may not be able to think better than you, are suggesting. In other words, you are throwing away your responsibility to think just when it matters.

I am time poor, this morning, But there are many, although YOU COULD START HERE -
http://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_data/ar4/wg3/en/spmsspm-e.html

However, I would suggest IF you were seriously interested, YOU COULD LOOK UP THE ISSUES YOURSELF?

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Doctor Jolly

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Re: Climate Change Denial is Reality Denial
Reply #50 - Nov 13^th, 2013 at 8:57am

Tony Abbott is the poster boy of the fossil fuel driven backlash against action to limit climate change.
Australia is being used as a wedge to undermine global efforts. If he can reverse climate change measures, it will be a victory to leverage in other countries.

He has very powerful lobby groups forcing his hand on this, so the argument is no longer over logic, cost effectiveness, or any other measure.

Tony Abbott is well known to be a puppet of vested interest, and has leveraged this to get where his is. Riding on the coat tails of mining industry propaganda. He will not stand up the the lobby groups.

The only hope we have is that others in the liberal party see the madness in this stance.

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namnugenot

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Re: Climate Change Denial is Reality Denial
Reply #51 - Nov 13^th, 2013 at 10:05am

Doctor Jolly wrote on Nov 13^th, 2013 at 8:57am:

Tony Abbott is the poster boy of the fossil fuel driven backlash against action to limit climate change.
Australia is being used as a wedge to undermine global efforts. If he can reverse climate change measures, it will be a victory to leverage in other countries.

He has very powerful lobby groups forcing his hand on this, so the argument is no longer over logic, cost effectiveness, or any other measure.

Tony Abbott is well known to be a puppet of vested interest, and has leveraged this to get where his is. Riding on the coat tails of mining industry propaganda. He will not stand up the the lobby groups.

The only hope we have is that others in the liberal party see the madness in this stance.

So what party were Obied and Macdonald in again?

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Doctor Jolly

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Re: Climate Change Denial is Reality Denial
Reply #52 - Nov 13^th, 2013 at 10:15am

namnugenot wrote on Nov 13^th, 2013 at 10:05am:

Doctor Jolly wrote on Nov 13^th, 2013 at 8:57am:

Tony Abbott is the poster boy of the fossil fuel driven backlash against action to limit climate change.
Australia is being used as a wedge to undermine global efforts. If he can reverse climate change measures, it will be a victory to leverage in other countries.

He has very powerful lobby groups forcing his hand on this, so the argument is no longer over logic, cost effectiveness, or any other measure.

Tony Abbott is well known to be a puppet of vested interest, and has leveraged this to get where his is. Riding on the coat tails of mining industry propaganda. He will not stand up the the lobby groups.

The only hope we have is that others in the liberal party see the madness in this stance.

So what party were Obied and Macdonald in again?

Are you suggesting Obeid, Macdonald and Abbott are cut from the same cloth ?

i dont. Abbott has not proven to be corrupt, but he does appear to be easily influenced by powerful lobby groups, and is a tool for their disposal.

For example, the winding back of taxes and revenue streams which will cause the debt to double is symtomatic of single-issue politics with no wider vision or agenda.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21758 Gender:	Re: Climate Change Denial is Reality Denial Reply #53 - Nov 13^th, 2013 at 10:55am perceptions_now You quoted AR4 You should perhaps look at AR5 rather than old prognostications
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