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Head in the sand on solar storage (Read 3140 times)
BatteriesNotIncluded
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Re: Head in the sand on solar storage
Reply #15 - Nov 5th, 2013 at 3:32pm
 
It's about QUALITY of energy... W/out weeks of storage,... And tax payer dollars supporting the exploration toward such a goal, it's not happening!
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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is.  It wouldn't be there without the tax payer.  Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know....  (swaggy) *
 
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Re: Head in the sand on solar storage
Reply #16 - Nov 6th, 2013 at 7:30pm
 
Solar storage below $100/kWh – with the help of a steam engine

By Giles Parkinson on 6 November 2013

Terrajoule, the Australian-led California-based start-up that proposes to use steam engine technology to help deliver cheap solar storage at a distributed level, has raised $US11.5 million in a funding round, and revealed that it is ready to deliver storage at less than $100/kWh, way cheaper than batteries.

The company has tapped funds from companies that include Air Liquide, a specialist gas producer, and investment firm New Enterprise Associates, as well as a bunch of individual investors including Australia’s Craig Winkler, the founder of accounting software company MYOB.

It will use the money for the next stage in the rollout of its technology, which it claims to be a breakthrough because it can deliver on-demand solar power to businesses at a cost five times below the cost of battery technology, and without degradation from life cycles.

As RenewEconomy wrote in its profile of the company last month, the company is planning on volume production of its technology in 2015.  It has already teamed up with solar power systems supplier JKB Energy, and Roush Industries, a leading developer of automotive and energy systems.

It is targeting systems from 100kW to 20MW that operate 24/7, and promises a “compelling” payback for off-grid and on-grid power. Its initial focus will be industrial and agricultural sectors, particularly in those locations which have expensive or inadequate grids, or where waste heat can be used to improve the efficiency of industrial operations.

...

The first pilot project was installed in an irrigated almond farm in California’s Central Valley (pictured), and the company sees a huge demand among the irrigated farm community, particularly in the solar-rich south west of the US, and in Australia. Irrigated farm operations in Australia are watching with interest, because if the company delivers what it says it can, it will be an attractive proposition.

Terrajoule says it is aiming in 2015 for a price per peak watt of $1.50 to $2.00 at a 20 per cent capacity factor, depending on system size, the strength of the solar resource (DNI) and other factors.  Mostly, this is comparable to the price for a PV solar panel system (without storage) at the equivalent capacity factor.

But it says its price of net electrical storage capacity will be less than $100/kWh.  This is a fraction of the cost of most battery storage technologies, and comes without cycle limitations, degradation of capacity, disposal costs, and all balance of system costs. It sees further cost falls as production is scaled up.

Terrajoule’s chief technology office Robert Mierisch searched back into the historical manuals to develop his idea of using the 300-year-old technology of a steam engine and a tank as the means of storage and delivering electricity and/or waste heat on demand. Its proposal use a type of steam engine that has been out of service for decades, apart from tourist ferry or two, has raised eyebrows.

But Arno Penzias, from NEA Venture Partner, and Nobel Prize winner in Physics in 1978, said the company has made outstanding technological progress. “Terrajoule’s energy storage solution removes a fundamental obstacle to the next few decades of sustainable energy growth,” he said in a statement

According to Terrajoule (it now has its own website), the essential characteristic of the its system is its ability to rapidly respond to changes in load, functioning equivalently to the diesel generators it replaces, and without volatile fuel costs.

“Energy storage is based on pressurized saturated water, with 98% storage/retrieval efficiency,” it says in its press release. “Energy conversion is performed via reciprocating steam piston engines that are highly efficient across a wide range of operating power. The system generates steam through mature solar concentrator technology” (such as parbolic troughs).”

As the company explains on its website:
Quote:
    Major problems are sometimes resolved with unexpected solutions.  Who expected that reciprocating steam piston engines would play a major role in 21st century energy growth?

    Reciprocating steam engines powered the industrial revolution and steam itself is ubiquitous throughout industry to this day.  Actually it is the phase change between steam and water that makes water a fundamental component of both life and industrial processes.

    Steam is fundamental to the conversion between thermal energy and electricity, and steam piston engines built with modern automotive technology are back.


We explained more about how it works in our profile.

[continued ...]
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Re: Head in the sand on solar storage
Reply #17 - Nov 6th, 2013 at 7:31pm
 
[... continued]

Terrajoule CEO Steve Bisset said the funds would enable the company to bring the technology to global markets, although it will be careful and cautious about the pace of deployment and the markets it is targeting.
     
“Developing a game-changing energy storage solution is about more than technology. We’ve focused on building the right value proposition, market channels, and capital partners to build a business with global reach and scale without depending on government subsidies,” he said.

This means avoiding the need for massive capital requirements which has challenged developers of other technologies. Air Liquide, which provides specialty gases to a variety of industries, is attracted to the technology because it will help boost the efficiency and reduce the carbon footprint of its hydrogen units.
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Re: Head in the sand on solar storage
Reply #18 - Nov 6th, 2013 at 7:37pm
 
so how much does Giles Whoever pay you to rehash his crap hash? or are you related and feel sorry for him?
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Re: Head in the sand on solar storage
Reply #19 - Nov 6th, 2013 at 8:02pm
 
Rider wrote on Nov 6th, 2013 at 7:37pm:
so how much does ... pay you ...
I promulgate the best out of the goodness of my heart. Good karma, you know?
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Re: Head in the sand on solar storage
Reply #20 - Nov 6th, 2013 at 8:33pm
 
There are two problems with storage of that kind. The same applies to the Ammonia Synthesis Rankine Engine storage model.

The first problem is that both are specific to Solar Thermal.
The second problem is that the costs of Solar Thermal are increasing and the cost of Solar PV are dropping like a stone. In a matter of a few years, any thermal based storage will be at a disadvantage because of the huge drop in efficiency when you try convert from electrical energy to thermal.

Solar Thermal plants are mostly huge, and located in one place. Solar PV has the advantage that they can be spread out, giving the advantage of diversity loading. If you have diversity loading, potentially, you don't need the same elaborate equalisation techniques to compensate for cloudy intervals. 

...
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...
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Re: Head in the sand on solar storage
Reply #21 - Nov 6th, 2013 at 8:50pm
 
muso wrote on Nov 6th, 2013 at 8:33pm:
... If you have diversity loading, potentially, you don't need the same elaborate equalisation techniques to compensate for cloudy intervals. 
...
The planet as a whole could be self-sufficient. Come to think of it, the planet was doing quite nicely; then we came along.
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Re: Head in the sand on solar storage
Reply #22 - Nov 6th, 2013 at 8:51pm
 
I really think that Solar PV combined with a network of grids interconnected by HVDC transmission lines will eventually dominate the solar scene.

Solar PV is going through intense development at the moment. 47% efficiency has recently been attained. New perovskite technology could eventually take this higher with lower cost.

http://www.poplarnetwork.com/questions-and-answers/perovskite-manufacturing-sola...

9% might seem low at this stage, but we're talking of panels that can be printed, and they can be incredibly thin. "Sub Micron" translates to cheaper.

5 times cheaper (at least)

http://www.laserfocusworld.com/articles/2013/10/perovskite-solar-cells-5x-cheape...

Watch this space.
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...
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Re: Head in the sand on solar storage
Reply #23 - Nov 7th, 2013 at 1:34am
 
# wrote on Nov 6th, 2013 at 7:31pm:
[... continued]

Terrajoule CEO Steve Bisset said the funds would enable the company to bring the technology to global markets, although it will be careful and cautious about the pace of deployment and the markets it is targeting.
     
“Developing a game-changing energy storage solution is about more than technology. We’ve focused on building the right value proposition, market channels, and capital partners to build a business with global reach and scale without depending on government subsidies,” he said.

This means avoiding the need for massive capital requirements which has challenged developers of other technologies. Air Liquide, which provides specialty gases to a variety of industries, is attracted to the technology because it will help boost the efficiency and reduce the carbon footprint of its hydrogen units.

Hybridisation is of course the answer  Wink
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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is.  It wouldn't be there without the tax payer.  Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know....  (swaggy) *
 
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Re: Head in the sand on solar storage
Reply #24 - Nov 7th, 2013 at 1:45am
 
muso wrote on Nov 6th, 2013 at 8:51pm:
I really think that Solar PV combined with a network of grids interconnected by HVDC transmission lines will eventually dominate the solar scene.

Solar PV is going through intense development at the moment. 47% efficiency has recently been attained. New perovskite technology could eventually take this higher with lower cost.

http://www.poplarnetwork.com/questions-and-answers/perovskite-manufacturing-sola...

9% might seem low at this stage, but we're talking of panels that can be printed, and they can be incredibly thin. "Sub Micron" translates to cheaper.

5 times cheaper (at least)

http://www.laserfocusworld.com/articles/2013/10/perovskite-solar-cells-5x-cheape...

Watch this space.

Solar powered newspapers? Could save an industry and count as a distributed systemic part of a whole... i'm sure ed de bono would say hold that thought for it may contain a kernel.... <cough splutter>  Cheesy
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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is.  It wouldn't be there without the tax payer.  Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know....  (swaggy) *
 
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Re: Head in the sand on solar storage
Reply #25 - Nov 7th, 2013 at 7:00am
 
BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 1:34am:
Hybridisation is of course the answer  Wink


In the short to medium term, that's exactly right. The only problem right now is the shortage of gas at any price.

http://ecogeneration.com.au/news/creating_solar_and_natural_gas_synergies1/07653...

We are facing a stalemate and electricity cuts, starting in Queensland. There will be a shortfall in generated electricity by the end of next year at the latest.

The problem with Gas turbine combined cycle with solar - all the gas is tied up in international contracts.

The problem with coal - No bank will finance a new coal fired power station in Australia.

The solution - and hopefully the current government will wake up to it, is to kickstart renewable energy options - urgently.
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...
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Re: Head in the sand on solar storage
Reply #26 - Nov 7th, 2013 at 1:27pm
 
Of course, the Germans are in on the act.

Germany finances major push into home battery storage for solar

By Giles Parkinson on 7 November 2013

(Editors note: Rather than listening to the new Australian parliament debate climate change and clean energy, RE’s editor has chosen to flee, at least temporarily, to Germany, where he has discovered that the majority of the population believes that the planet is, in fact, round. This is the first of a series of articles on Germany’s energie-wende, its energy transition that will likely have  a major influence on the pace of change in the rest of the world. Many want it to succeed, some want it to fail).

The German government has responded to the next big challenge in its energy transition – storing the output from the solar boom it has created – by doing exactly what it has successfully done to date: greasing the wheels of finance to bring down the cost of new technology.

Over the past five years, Germany has been largely responsible for priming an 80 per cent fall in the price of solar modules. Now it is looking at bringing down the cost of the next piece in the puzzle of its energy transition – battery storage.

At its disposal is the giant state-owned but independently run development bank KfW. It performs in the clean energy space a similar function to Australia’s recently created and imminently doomed Clean Energy Finance Corp, but at such a scale that is not contemplated in most countries other than China.

It has assets of more than €500 billion, and lent €73 billion last year – with one-third of that targeted at renewables and climate investments. Over the past three years it provided €24 billion in loans for energy efficiency investment in homes, leveraging a total investment of €58 billion, helping insulate and seal more than 2 million homes, employing 200,000 people a year and saving more than 150 million tonnes of carbon.

Six months ago, it began a new program to finance the introduction of battery storage into homes, which it says is absolutely essential if the “energiewende”, the German expression for its energy transition – is to successfully move to the next phase and beyond 40 per cent renewable penetration.

The energy storage financing program has generated a higher than expected response.  Already 1,900 homes and small businesses have put their hands up for loans and grants (provided by the Environment Ministry) to install new solar systems and a battery storage system in their home. Around €32 million in loans has already been allocated and €5 million in grants, about 10 per cent of the sums allocated in the initial phase of the program.

Unlike the subsidised uptake of solar PV enabled by the deployment of generous feed-in tariffs, the support mechanism for energy storage is more cautious. Indeed, KfW is looking for investors who are ready to be “pioneers” and early adopters, and willing to take a loss on their investment.

“The market for energy storage systems is very young  … batteries are still very expensive  … and the economics don’t yet work,” program manager Dr Holger Papenfuss, told RenewEconomy in an interview in KfW’s sprawling headquarters in Germany’s financial centre of Frankfurt this week.

In fact, even with the assistance of the loans and grants, it is still not economically viable. Which is why KfW has stepped in to ensure that the commercial banks provide the funds for development.

The program is relying on “early adopters” and “renewable pioneers” – the same profile that were the first to get into electric vehicles, or solar panels a decade ago – who have the money and are willing to accept a negative return on their investment. Right now, Papenfuss says, people would be better off selling power to the grid.

So what’s motivating them? Being independent of the large power producers, and hedging bets in the face of rising electricity prices.

According to Papenfuss, households will spend between €20,000 and  €28,000 on solar and battery, depending on the size of the system. The battery component – it is targeting lead acid and lithium-ion batteries – is between  €8,000 and  €12,000, and the grants for this average around €3,000 (or about 30 per cent of the battery cost).

The average loan for the whole system is around  €17,000, but it is not offered at a discount. At just 1.5 per cent, the interest rates probably don’t need to come down any lower in any case. KfW’s function is to simply ensure that funds are made available for deployment by commercial banks, who may not touch an unprofitable venture otherwise.

Papenfuss says KfW is targeting 20,000 to 30,000 under its loan program, suggesting a commitment of at least €300 million.

KfW’s aim, according to Axel Nawrath, a member of the KfW Bankengruppe executive board, is to ensure that the output of wind and solar must be “more decoupled” from the grid. Which means that the grid is not necessarily required to accept the output just because the wind happens to be blowing a lot at the time, or the sun is shining.

“The success of the energy turnaround will entirely depend on integrating electricity from renewable sources into our energy system on a reliable, permanent basis,” he said in his announcement earlier this year.

[continued ...]
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Re: Head in the sand on solar storage
Reply #27 - Nov 7th, 2013 at 1:27pm
 
[... continued]

Storage means that the energy output can be held in reserve. The idea is to even out the peaks and troughs which is making it difficult for other generators to stay in business. This is seen as critical as the level of renewable penetration rises to around 40 per cent – a level expected in Germany within the next 10 years.

In a perfect world, the output might look something like this, as illustrated  by Citi in a recent analysis. It would spread solar and even wind output through the day, and cause less headaches for the other plants required to fill in the gaps between the variable output of wind and solar.

...

According to Papenfuss, households participating in the scheme will spend between  €20,000 and  €28,000 on solar and storage, depending on the size of the system (the average size is expected to be around 7kW for the solar array and around 4kWh for the battery).

The battery component is between  €8,000 and  €12,000, the grants average around €3,000 (or about 30 per cent of the battery cost) and the average loan for the whole system is around  €17,000.

The program is not open to systems of more than 30kW, and nor is it open to solar arrays that were installed before December 31 last year. They are deemed to have already gotten a good enough deal from the FiTs.

Papenfuss says that to make sense, battery storage needs to be half the cost it is now. This program is designed to set that price fall in motion.  He expects the costs to start to fall in 2014, and within two years could be offering a positive return. At that point, he says, the grant component is likely to be withdrawn, although the loan finance program will likely continue.

Over the longer term, KfW hopes that the program will help define standards for use of storage systems.  Papenfuss expects storage systems to then focus on wind power and other larger solar systems – allowing owners to earn a fee for storing energy and releasing it at certain times.
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Re: Head in the sand on solar storage
Reply #28 - Nov 7th, 2013 at 4:04pm
 
muso wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 7:00am:
BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 1:34am:
Hybridisation is of course the answer  Wink


In the short to medium term, that's exactly right. The only problem right now is the shortage of gas at any price.

http://ecogeneration.com.au/news/creating_solar_and_natural_gas_synergies1/07653...

We are facing a stalemate and electricity cuts, starting in Queensland. There will be a shortfall in generated electricity by the end of next year at the latest.

The problem with Gas turbine combined cycle with solar - all the gas is tied up in international contracts.

The problem with coal - No bank will finance a new coal fired power station in Australia.

The solution - and hopefully the current government will wake up to it, is to kickstart renewable energy options - urgently.

~}84\/,\\\'< GO MUSO
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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is.  It wouldn't be there without the tax payer.  Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know....  (swaggy) *
 
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