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Nuclear prices itself out of market (Read 4872 times)
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Nuclear prices itself out of market
Nov 1st, 2013 at 7:23pm
 
Graph of the Day: Nuclear prices itself out of market

By Giles Parkinson on 1 November 2013

The extent to which nuclear is being priced out of electricity markets has finally been revealed by the pricing mechanism unveiled by the British government in the deal to subsidise the Hinkley C nuclear.

The UK government will pay £92.5 for each megawatt hour produced from hinkley ($A154/MWh), around double the prevailing market price. This is after the UK supplied a loan guarantee for 65 per cent of the estimated $24 billion capital cost. The “strike price” – a fancy name for a feed in tariff – also has an escalator to take into account the impact of inflation, so the cost will rise in coming years.

So how does this compare with rival clean energy technologies? Pretty badly as it turns out.

This graph below, published by Craig Morris in Renewable Energy World reveals that the rates that will be offered for new nuclear from 2023 in the UK are far above what solar and wind currently cost. And, as Morris points out, the rates for solar and wind will go down by then, not up! Even offshore wind is getting £95/MWh from 2018 in the UK, but only for 15 years and without any loan guarantees.

...


This second graph below is even more interesting. It takes into account all the expensive PV that was installed with really high feed in tariffs at the start of Germany’s energy transition before the price of solar fell dramatically. From 2023, when the Hinkley reactor is due to be switched on, nuclear at this price still fairs poorly, and as the cost of those tariffs continue to decline, the cost of nuclear will continue to rise. It’s probably as good an illustration as any as to why Germany are not interested in new nuclear power station, and few countries are.

...
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Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market
Reply #1 - Nov 1st, 2013 at 8:28pm
 
New nuclear plants are becoming difficult to justify anywhere.

The danger is that long established nuclear power stations run quite cheaply and safely, with very little greenhouse gas emissions. Replacing these with fossil fuel generated electricity is a step backwards.
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Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market
Reply #2 - Nov 1st, 2013 at 8:45pm
 
How hard is it to shut down nuclear plants if in future there was a transition to something (more) renewable and efficient? I imagine that's an issue?
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Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market
Reply #3 - Nov 1st, 2013 at 9:10pm
 
Vuk11 wrote on Nov 1st, 2013 at 8:45pm:
How hard is it to shut down nuclear plants if in future there was a transition to something (more) renewable and efficient? I imagine that's an issue?


The longer they run for, the cheaper they become. They factor in the design lifetime when deciding whether its justified to build them.
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Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market
Reply #4 - Nov 1st, 2013 at 9:23pm
 
Nuclear power economics was over taken by solar thermal efficiency costs in the year 2010.

In reality nuclear power is totally off the spectrum with respect to capital and power generation costs. As we may all know, no nuclear power plant in the world today (over 500 plants world wide) can be insured for public liability and compensation in the event of a nuclear disaster. No nuclear power plan has been built solely by the private sector or funded purely by stock market floats. They always receive state tax payer funding and guarantees.

And of course nobody talks about the costs for nuclear waste storage and/or treatment, plant decommissioning and site remediation costs.

Shhhhhhhhhhh......
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Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market
Reply #5 - Nov 2nd, 2013 at 2:00am
 
Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 1st, 2013 at 9:23pm:
Nuclear power economics was over taken by solar thermal efficiency costs in the year 2010.

In reality nuclear power is totally off the spectrum with respect to capital and power generation costs. As we may all know, no nuclear power plant in the world today (over 500 plants world wide) can be insured for public liability and compensation in the event of a nuclear disaster. No nuclear power plan has been built solely by the private sector or funded purely by stock market floats. They always receive state tax payer funding and guarantees.

And of course nobody talks about the costs for nuclear waste storage and/or treatment, plant decommissioning and site remediation costs.

Shhhhhhhhhhh......

Ultimately this can't be true: solar thermal needs weeks of storage to even be considered viable and w/out the tax payer dollar it will always remain hamstrung! SAD BUT TRUE!!
NO SAYING IT CAN'T HAPPEN but w/out society giving it taxpayer dollars for r&d it's bunkified  Cry
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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is.  It wouldn't be there without the tax payer.  Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know....  (swaggy) *
 
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Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market
Reply #6 - Nov 2nd, 2013 at 7:32am
 
muso wrote on Nov 1st, 2013 at 9:10pm:
Vuk11 wrote on Nov 1st, 2013 at 8:45pm:
How hard is it to shut down nuclear plants if in future there was a transition to something (more) renewable and efficient? I imagine that's an issue?


The longer they run for, the cheaper they become. They factor in the design lifetime when deciding whether its justified to build them.



...and the more dangerous and lethal they become

...the more brittle their reactor pressure vessels and containments become due to neutron bombardment and other factors such as corrosion and fatigue...

the more waste they generate....

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Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market
Reply #7 - Nov 2nd, 2013 at 7:37am
 
BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Nov 2nd, 2013 at 2:00am:
Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 1st, 2013 at 9:23pm:
Nuclear power economics was over taken by solar thermal efficiency costs in the year 2010.

In reality nuclear power is totally off the spectrum with respect to capital and power generation costs. As we may all know, no nuclear power plant in the world today (over 500 plants world wide) can be insured for public liability and compensation in the event of a nuclear disaster. No nuclear power plan has been built solely by the private sector or funded purely by stock market floats. They always receive state tax payer funding and guarantees.

And of course nobody talks about the costs for nuclear waste storage and/or treatment, plant decommissioning and site remediation costs.

Shhhhhhhhhhh......

Ultimately this can't be true: solar thermal needs weeks of storage to even be considered viable and w/out the tax payer dollar it will always remain hamstrung! SAD BUT TRUE!!
NO SAYING IT CAN'T HAPPEN but w/out society giving it taxpayer dollars for r&d it's bunkified  Cry


Solar Thermal is already a base load continuous power generating source, that operates on a large scale..

Almost all the tax payer dollars go to the fossil fuel sectors and the deranged nuclear industry.

And that doesn't include the funding of OIL wars and military invasions and huge outlays to protect the corporatisation of energy and mining resources throughout the globe

THe table is rigged.

The dice are loaded

The psycho-sociopathic corporate fascists are in charge - they have escaped from the Asylum and are masquerading as Political puppetry leaders and corporate CEOs.


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Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market
Reply #8 - Nov 2nd, 2013 at 11:26am
 
muso wrote on Nov 1st, 2013 at 8:28pm:
New nuclear plants are becoming difficult to justify anywhere.

The danger is that long established nuclear power stations run quite cheaply and safely, with very little greenhouse gas emissions. Replacing these with fossil fuel generated electricity is a step backwards.


Have you forgotten about Chernobyl.....???

Or Fukushima.

The very foundation of western civilisation is built on fossil fuels.........!!!!!
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Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market
Reply #9 - Nov 2nd, 2013 at 12:12pm
 
Ajax wrote on Nov 2nd, 2013 at 11:26am:
muso wrote on Nov 1st, 2013 at 8:28pm:
New nuclear plants are becoming difficult to justify anywhere.

The danger is that long established nuclear power stations run quite cheaply and safely, with very little greenhouse gas emissions. Replacing these with fossil fuel generated electricity is a step backwards.


Have you forgotten about Chernobyl.....???

Or Fukushima.

The very foundation of western civilisation is built on fossil fuels.........!!!!!


A single response applicable to both comments


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Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market
Reply #10 - Nov 2nd, 2013 at 2:35pm
 
muso wrote on Nov 1st, 2013 at 8:28pm:
New nuclear plants are becoming difficult to justify anywhere.

The danger is that long established nuclear power stations run quite cheaply and safely, with very little greenhouse gas emissions. Replacing these with fossil fuel generated electricity is a step backwards.

Given developments in renewables and the surprising advances in storage, is that likely to be necessary - or even cost-effective? The Germans seem to have done pretty well, even with the current state of technology.
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Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market
Reply #11 - Nov 2nd, 2013 at 3:19pm
 
# wrote on Nov 2nd, 2013 at 2:35pm:
muso wrote on Nov 1st, 2013 at 8:28pm:
New nuclear plants are becoming difficult to justify anywhere.

The danger is that long established nuclear power stations run quite cheaply and safely, with very little greenhouse gas emissions. Replacing these with fossil fuel generated electricity is a step backwards.

Given developments in renewables and the surprising advances in storage, is that likely to be necessary - or even cost-effective? The Germans seem to have done pretty well, even with the current state of technology.


...and the Germans don't have ideal solar radiation bathing their landscapes

The Germans look at Australia and must laugh their heads off as to how stupid we appear to the rest of the planet.

...
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Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market
Reply #12 - Nov 2nd, 2013 at 7:10pm
 
# wrote on Nov 2nd, 2013 at 2:35pm:
muso wrote on Nov 1st, 2013 at 8:28pm:
New nuclear plants are becoming difficult to justify anywhere.

The danger is that long established nuclear power stations run quite cheaply and safely, with very little greenhouse gas emissions. Replacing these with fossil fuel generated electricity is a step backwards.

Given developments in renewables and the surprising advances in storage, is that likely to be necessary - or even cost-effective? The Germans seem to have done pretty well, even with the current state of technology.


Yes, and I guess Solar installations are not affected by jellyfish either.
http://news.sp@m/animals/jellyfish-shut-down-swedish-nuclear-reactor-131002.htm

Quote:
Jellyfish Shut Down Swedish Nuclear Reactor


Jellyfish are becoming more of a hazard worldwide.


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Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market
Reply #13 - Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:56am
 
# wrote on Nov 2nd, 2013 at 2:35pm:
muso wrote on Nov 1st, 2013 at 8:28pm:
New nuclear plants are becoming difficult to justify anywhere.

The danger is that long established nuclear power stations run quite cheaply and safely, with very little greenhouse gas emissions. Replacing these with fossil fuel generated electricity is a step backwards.

Given developments in renewables and the surprising advances in storage, is that likely to be necessary - or even cost-effective? The Germans seem to have done pretty well, even with the current state of technology.

WHAT ADVANCES in storage  Roll Eyes?
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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is.  It wouldn't be there without the tax payer.  Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know....  (swaggy) *
 
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Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market
Reply #14 - Nov 3rd, 2013 at 7:09am
 
BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:56am:
# wrote on Nov 2nd, 2013 at 2:35pm:
muso wrote on Nov 1st, 2013 at 8:28pm:
New nuclear plants are becoming difficult to justify anywhere.

The danger is that long established nuclear power stations run quite cheaply and safely, with very little greenhouse gas emissions. Replacing these with fossil fuel generated electricity is a step backwards.

Given developments in renewables and the surprising advances in storage, is that likely to be necessary - or even cost-effective? The Germans seem to have done pretty well, even with the current state of technology.

WHAT ADVANCES in storage  Roll Eyes?


The large scale Spanish solar thermal plant can store enough energy in its molten salt circuits that it can run 24/7 - effectively making it a base load power source.

The solar Hot Water systems on domestic and commercial rooftops often have a back up booster coil or gas burner, to cater for periods where the hot water has run out.

The Solar Hot water system installed on our roof has a gas booster on the main tank. Its been running for close to 5 years now and has never come on for more than 8% of the year. So greater than 92% of the energy used to heat the water comes directly from the sun. The whole system should pay itself off after about 6 or 7 years.

The large solar thermal plants are becoming very advanced in insulation technology and the type and composition of molten salts that they use. They are also now designing in extra storage capacity because the capital investment is worthwhile.

There is also the Solar Tower project proposed by Australian company Environmission -  different conceptual idea but nevertheless a 24/7 base load option (although the output does drop during the night to about 50 - 65%)

Animation
http://www.enviromission.com.au/irm/content/movies/towerfunction.html
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Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market
Reply #15 - Nov 3rd, 2013 at 10:33am
 
Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 2nd, 2013 at 12:12pm:
A single response applicable to both comments




Hey banana breath I thought you were against nuclear power......................?????

HHmmmnnnn a Neanderthal with split personality.....????
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Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market
Reply #16 - Nov 3rd, 2013 at 10:56am
 
BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:56am:
# wrote on Nov 2nd, 2013 at 2:35pm:
muso wrote on Nov 1st, 2013 at 8:28pm:
New nuclear plants are becoming difficult to justify anywhere.

The danger is that long established nuclear power stations run quite cheaply and safely, with very little greenhouse gas emissions. Replacing these with fossil fuel generated electricity is a step backwards.

Given developments in renewables and the surprising advances in storage, is that likely to be necessary - or even cost-effective? The Germans seem to have done pretty well, even with the current state of technology.

WHAT ADVANCES in storage  Roll Eyes?


There are all kinds of storage options available. They include the CSIRO Rankine Cycle (ammonia synthesis), pumped hydroelectric and fused salt storage.  They already use molten salt storage in the US.  There is also cryogenic storage - you use the electricity to liquefy nitrogen and then use the vaporised gas to drive a turbine.
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« Last Edit: Nov 3rd, 2013 at 11:07am by muso »  

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Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market
Reply #17 - Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:18pm
 
IAEA to send a probe team to the Fukushima meltdown disaster site by the end of November 2013

Over 950 days since the meltdowns and the IAEA is NOW sending in a probe team.

Perhaps the team can determine WHERE the melted down CORIUMS are, their shape, size and temperature?

I wonder if anybody on ozpolitic.com knows ???
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Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market
Reply #18 - Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:21pm
 
Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 10:33am:
Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 2nd, 2013 at 12:12pm:
A single response applicable to both comments




Hey banana breath I thought you were against nuclear power......................?????

HHmmmnnnn a Neanderthal with split personality.....????


keep sucking in that conspiracy dogma you freaked up stenched maggot slothed slab of excrement
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Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market
Reply #19 - Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:32pm
 
Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:21pm:
Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 10:33am:
Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 2nd, 2013 at 12:12pm:
A single response applicable to both comments




Hey banana breath I thought you were against nuclear power......................?????

HHmmmnnnn a Neanderthal with split personality.....????


keep sucking in that conspiracy dogma you freaked up stenched maggot slothed slab of excrement



You better go pick some fleas of your mate hairy asre
...
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1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
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Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market
Reply #20 - Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:37pm
 
Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:32pm:
Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:21pm:
Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 10:33am:
Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 2nd, 2013 at 12:12pm:
A single response applicable to both comments




Hey banana breath I thought you were against nuclear power......................?????

HHmmmnnnn a Neanderthal with split personality.....????


keep sucking in that conspiracy dogma you freaked up stenched maggot slothed slab of excrement



You better go pick some fleas of your mate
hairy asre


what's a hairy asre?
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Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market
Reply #21 - Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:40pm
 
Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:37pm:
what's a hairy asre?



LMFAO...exactly what its says...LOL....!!!!!!
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Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market
Reply #22 - Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:42pm
 
Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:40pm:
Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:37pm:
what's a hairy asre?



LMFAO...exactly what its says...LOL....!!!!!!


So speak some German in public Ajax

Show the world how honest you are

How cowardly you are

How you pretend to be someone else
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Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market
Reply #23 - Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:50pm
 
Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:42pm:
Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:40pm:
Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:37pm:
what's a hairy asre?



LMFAO...exactly what its says...LOL....!!!!!!


So speak some German in public Ajax

Show the world how honest you are

How cowardly you are

How you pretend to be someone else

...
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1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery &  prison" Regas Feraeos
 
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Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market
Reply #24 - Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:00pm
 
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Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market
Reply #25 - Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:10pm
 
muso wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 10:56am:
BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:56am:
# wrote on Nov 2nd, 2013 at 2:35pm:
muso wrote on Nov 1st, 2013 at 8:28pm:
New nuclear plants are becoming difficult to justify anywhere.

The danger is that long established nuclear power stations run quite cheaply and safely, with very little greenhouse gas emissions. Replacing these with fossil fuel generated electricity is a step backwards.

Given developments in renewables and the surprising advances in storage, is that likely to be necessary - or even cost-effective? The Germans seem to have done pretty well, even with the current state of technology.

WHAT ADVANCES in storage  Roll Eyes?


There are all kinds of storage options available. They include the CSIRO Rankine Cycle (ammonia synthesis), pumped hydroelectric and fused salt storage.  They already use molten salt storage in the US.  There is also cryogenic storage - you use the electricity to liquefy nitrogen and then use the vaporised gas to drive a turbine.

In the short term (as in right now) batteries seem to be the most likely candidate. Mostly, lithium-ion.
http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/Slideshow-DOE-Energy-Storage-Project...
http://reneweconomy.com.au/2013/origin-says-solar-and-storage-coming-quicker-tha...
http://reneweconomy.com.au/2013/california-storage-21644
http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/09/point-will-small-scale-solar-energy-storage-...
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Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market
Reply #26 - Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:15pm
 
Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:40pm:
Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:37pm:
what's a hairy asre?



LMFAO...exactly what its says...LOL....!!!!!!

The only definition of asre that I can find is the Auditing Standard on Review Engagements. Do they grow hair?
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Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market
Reply #27 - Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:16pm
 
Nuclear power has NEVER been economically viable.

Always subsidised by the tax payer to ridiculous levels.

Nuclear reactors cannot even be insured for public liability and compensation anywhere in the world.

The stock market has NEVER fully funded a nuclear power plant via a public float. Why not?

To then talk about the price of nuclear power in terms of cents/kWhr and compare it with other methods of power generation is also a ridiculous task.
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Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market
Reply #28 - Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:24pm
 
# wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:15pm:
Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:40pm:
Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:37pm:
what's a hairy asre?



LMFAO...exactly what its says...LOL....!!!!!!

The only definition of asre that I can find is the Auditing Standard on Review Engagements. Do they grow hair?


You gotta get out more hash and do a bit of socialising instead of reading propaganda from the club of rome.
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Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market
Reply #29 - Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:26pm
 
liar
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Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market
Reply #30 - Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:29pm
 
Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:26pm:
liar


that applies to you as well chimp.
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1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery &  prison" Regas Feraeos
 
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Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market
Reply #31 - Nov 3rd, 2013 at 3:41pm
 
Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:29pm:
Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:26pm:
liar


that applies to you as well chimp.


So you are paranoid Ajax - how did you know that label applied to you? It is a nameless floating label, and yet it only dragged in one RESPONDENT - yourself

I may have faults, I may even reverse my stance in here depending on my mood at the time.

BUT I am only one - I need not wear more than one mask

I need not masquerade as an individual of a certain culture.

The ultimate moral crime in forums
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Mini Ice Age (2014-2029)
Dr Sircus cures cancer with Baking Soda and Magnesium - Jethro the MENTAL GIANT & his flute madness
 
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Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market
Reply #32 - Nov 3rd, 2013 at 3:59pm
 
Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 3:41pm:
Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:29pm:
Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:26pm:
liar


that applies to you as well chimp.


So you are paranoid Ajax - how did you know that label applied to you? It is a nameless floating label, and yet it only dragged in one RESPONDENT - yourself

I may have faults, I may even reverse my stance in here depending on my mood at the time.

BUT I am only one - I need not wear more than one mask

I need not masquerade as an individual of a certain culture.

The ultimate moral crime in forums


...
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1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery &  prison" Regas Feraeos
 
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Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market
Reply #33 - Nov 3rd, 2013 at 6:37pm
 
what on Earth is Chernobyl Cs137 doing in soil surrounding the Baltic Sea?



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« Last Edit: Nov 3rd, 2013 at 8:45pm by Chimp_Logic »  

Mini Ice Age (2014-2029)
Dr Sircus cures cancer with Baking Soda and Magnesium - Jethro the MENTAL GIANT & his flute madness
 
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Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market
Reply #34 - Nov 3rd, 2013 at 6:39pm
 
A very elucidating PM has revealed WHO mr Ajax is pretending to be.

Very interesting ladies and gentlemen
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Mini Ice Age (2014-2029)
Dr Sircus cures cancer with Baking Soda and Magnesium - Jethro the MENTAL GIANT & his flute madness
 
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Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market
Reply #35 - Nov 3rd, 2013 at 6:58pm
 
Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:24pm:
# wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:15pm:
Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:40pm:
Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:37pm:
what's a hairy asre?



LMFAO...exactly what its says...LOL....!!!!!!

The only definition of asre that I can find is the Auditing Standard on Review Engagements. Do they grow hair?


You gotta get out more hash and do a bit of socialising instead of reading propaganda from the club of rome. 

Confirmed: Ajax really doesn't have a clue.
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Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market
Reply #36 - Nov 4th, 2013 at 10:31am
 
Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 6:39pm:
A very elucidating PM has revealed WHO mr Ajax is pretending to be.

Very interesting ladies and gentlemen


Still babbling after your medication chimp....??
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2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery &  prison" Regas Feraeos
 
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Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market
Reply #37 - Nov 4th, 2013 at 10:33am
 
# wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 6:58pm:
Confirmed: Ajax really doesn't have a clue.


So says the man that posts every piece of AGW religious information known to be on the internet....!!!
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1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery &  prison" Regas Feraeos
 
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Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market
Reply #38 - Nov 4th, 2013 at 10:48am
 
Ajax wrote on Nov 4th, 2013 at 10:33am:
# wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 6:58pm:
Confirmed: Ajax really doesn't have a clue.


So says the man that posts every piece of AGW religious information known to be on the internet....!!!


All Hail Lord Monckton!
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Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market
Reply #39 - Nov 4th, 2013 at 11:06am
 
Ajax wrote on Nov 4th, 2013 at 10:33am:
# wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 6:58pm:
Confirmed: Ajax really doesn't have a clue.


So says the man that posts every piece of AGW religious information known to be on the internet....!!!
Anthropogenic global warming is science, according to the vast majority of the best qualified, at least. Your denialism is founded solely in your peculiar world view.
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Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market
Reply #40 - Nov 4th, 2013 at 11:35am
 
muso wrote on Nov 4th, 2013 at 10:48am:
Ajax wrote on Nov 4th, 2013 at 10:33am:
# wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 6:58pm:
Confirmed: Ajax really doesn't have a clue.


So says the man that posts every piece of AGW religious information known to be on the internet....!!!


All Hail Lord Monckton!

ALl heil andrew bolt ...
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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is.  It wouldn't be there without the tax payer.  Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know....  (swaggy) *
 
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Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market
Reply #41 - Nov 4th, 2013 at 11:55am
 
# wrote on Nov 4th, 2013 at 11:06am:
Ajax wrote on Nov 4th, 2013 at 10:33am:
# wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 6:58pm:
Confirmed: Ajax really doesn't have a clue.


So says the man that posts every piece of AGW religious information known to be on the internet....!!!
Anthropogenic global warming is science, according to the vast majority of the best qualified, at least. Your denialism is founded solely in your peculiar world view.


It's not only the pseudo science that is full of holes.

So is this consensus you continually like to bring up.

This is how your famous consensus started.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2012/07/17/that-scientific-global-warming-...
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Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market
Reply #42 - Nov 4th, 2013 at 2:30pm
 
Nuclear energy verdict: Costly, slow and very high maintenance

By Giles Parkinson on 4 November 2013

The story we published on Friday comparing the costs of new nuclear, now that they have been defined by contract signed by the UK Government for the construction of the $24 billion Hinkley C facility – with clean energy alternatives such as wind and solar, certainly generated a lot of interest, and comment.

Since then, we have received an analysis from Deutsche Bank, which makes some other observations about the cost of nuclear, the comparisons with gas, the price of abatement, and the cost of upkeep for France’s existing fleet.

The first point made by Deutsche is that this deal underlines the fact that nuclear is not cheap, but really, really expensive – a point that should not be forgotten in Australia, where there is still a push for nuclear in some quarters despite the abundant alternatives (in particular solar) that are not available to the UK.

As we have noted in the other article, the £92.50/MWh strike price is nearly double the current average cost of generation in the UK. Deutsche takes issue with the UK government’s claim that the contract is “competitive with other large-scale clean energy and with gas’.  It notes that this contract would only be cheaper than gas generation if the crude oil price (to which UK gas is linked) averages more than $150 barrel in real terms over the next 40 years. This, says Deutsche Bank, is around 3 times the average oil price over the last 40 years, and a 50 per cent premium to the average oil price over the last 5 years.

“Such comparisons do not show that this nuclear contract will be more expensive than gas generation (in 40 years), since conditions in the future may be very different from those of the past,” the Deutsche analysts write. “ However it does demonstrate that signing the proposed nuclear contract would commit the UK to buying electricity which would be expensive by historic standards.” It later describes the 35 year contract as “a poor trade for reducing risk.”

...

Then Deutsche Bank looks at the carbon cost of nuclear. It calculates that if the oil price were to remain at the current level of $100/barrel (in real terms), the cost of gas generation would be around £68/MWh (before paying for carbon emissions). Taking into account the amount of carbon emissions saved and the extra generation costs of nuclear, the nuclear generation comes at an implied cost of £65/tonne of carbon dioxide saved.

It notes that this carbon cost is more than ten times higher than the current traded price of carbon emissions in the EU ETS, is roughly twice the targeted level of the UK carbon price floor in 2020 set out by the Treasury in December 2011 (£30/tonne in 2009 prices), although it is less than the  £70/tonne price floor envisaged in 2030.


It says that nuclear is only justified in the UK if the government is serious about largely decarbonising the electricity grid by 2030, as has been canvassed by the UK’s Climate Change Council – the UK equivalent of the Climate Change Authority that Tony Abbott wants to disband. Deutsche notes that it does not meet UK’s short term needs to meet its 2020, which likely be met with more wind and biomass.

The CCC envisaged several scenarios to cut the UK’s carbon emissions to 50g/CO2-eMWh by 2030. The first scenario, see graph below, envisages 18GW of new nuclear. Deutsche Bank says this would require 5 more new nuclear facilities the size of Hinkley to be built within 16 years – not  only is such a target “hugely ambitious”, Deutsche says it would still be “not be nearly enough in itself to meet such a decarbonisation target.”

The UK would need at least as much wind generation as nuclear, and  some low-carbon flexible generation. Deutsche also notes that CCS is highly ambitious, as the technology is not proven, which leaves the most likely scenarios as being high renewables, or high energy efficiency, both of which leave wind and other renewables providing more than 50 per cent of the UK’s generation by 2030.

...


And just in case anyone feels like arguing that it is just new-build and new generation nuclear that is costly, this graph below should blow a few misconceptions.

It’s another from the Deutsche Bank team, and it shows the estimated capital expenditure requirement for the EdF fleet of nuclear reactors in France. Note that it is significantly higher than the original cost of the reactors in the 1970s and 1980s. Deutsche Bank says consumer electricity prices are being jacked up to meet some of that cost, but it estimates that EdF will need to spend €55 billion ($79 billion), a situation that will leave it in a cash-flow negative situation (It already has an €85 billion debt).

[continued ...]
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Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market
Reply #43 - Nov 4th, 2013 at 2:30pm
 
[... contiuned]

As Deutche Bank noted, any investment in new reactors would need to be funded on top of the refurbishment budget. Given that it is already cash-flow negative and has such a huge debt, few people have any clue how that could possibly be done. Which is why EdF’s major shareholder, the French government, is looking to reduce the share of nuclear in France’s generation to around 50 per cent from more than 70 per cent, and intends to fill that hole with (cheaper) renewables.

...


Still, Deutsche Bank notes that EdF has effectively handballed the risk of new nuclear to consumer and the UK government. The consumer is picking up the tab through higher electricity bills, and the UK government is using taxpayers money to guarantee 65 per cent of the project cost.  With the involvement of Chinese nuclear interests, that leaves EdF with an exposure of just £3.5 billion.
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Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market
Reply #44 - Nov 4th, 2013 at 2:31pm
 
Ajax wrote on Nov 4th, 2013 at 11:55am:
# wrote on Nov 4th, 2013 at 11:06am:
Ajax wrote on Nov 4th, 2013 at 10:33am:
# wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 6:58pm:
Confirmed: Ajax really doesn't have a clue.


So says the man that posts every piece of AGW religious information known to be on the internet....!!!
Anthropogenic global warming is science, according to the vast majority of the best qualified, at least. Your denialism is founded solely in your peculiar world view.


It's not only the pseudo science that is full of holes.

So is this consensus you continually like to bring up.

This is how your famous consensus started.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2012/07/17/that-scientific-global-warming-...

Yes, well:-
Larry Bell Quote:
Larry Bell is a weekly columnist for Forbes Magazine with no evident climate expertise who writes columns dismissing climate science. He is listed as author of a Jan. 2011 book titled Climate of Corruption: Politics and Power Behind The Global Warming Hoax, published through the Greenleaf Book Group, a vanity press.

Forbes, Inc. Quote:
The company profile for Forbes, Inc. on Yahoo.com states "Repeat after Forbes: Capitalism is good!"

The family-owned company publishes the biweekly business magazine, " Forbes," long promoted as the 'Capitalist Tool'."
Hardly among the most credible of sources.

I listen to the best. You put faith in the rest.

You've given no reason to suppose that you know any more of the science than I do. Quite the opposite, in fact. Yet you assert that the science is "full of holes". You're keen to believe that, but lack the skills to make the assessment.
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Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market
Reply #45 - Nov 4th, 2013 at 3:55pm
 
# wrote on Nov 4th, 2013 at 2:31pm:
Yes, well:-

Hardly among the most credible of sources.

I listen to the best. You put faith in the rest.

You've given no reason to suppose that you know any more of the science than I do. Quite the opposite, in fact. Yet you assert that the science is "full of holes". You're keen to believe that, but lack the skills to make the assessment.


There is no denying the truth.....no matter how you try and wrap it................!!!!!!!


Quote:
The claim that “97% of scientists agree” is based on 77 anonymous scientists who responded to a an online survey. The survey started by seeking opinions from 10,257 scientists. However, the survey authors selectively whittled down the responses to just 77 scientists.  So the 97% “consensus” claim is not based on thousands of scientists or even hundreds of scientists – but 75 out of only 77 scientists. Thus, the oft repeated 97 percent “consensus’ is based on only 75 anonymous scientists.

Yet, on this basis some say we should tax and eliminate hydrocarbon use, severely restricting U.S. job creation and economic growth.
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Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market
Reply #46 - Nov 4th, 2013 at 4:37pm
 
Ajax wrote on Nov 4th, 2013 at 3:55pm:
# wrote on Nov 4th, 2013 at 2:31pm:
Yes, well:-

Hardly among the most credible of sources.

I listen to the best. You put faith in the rest.

You've given no reason to suppose that you know any more of the science than I do. Quite the opposite, in fact. Yet you assert that the science is "full of holes". You're keen to believe that, but lack the skills to make the assessment.


There is no denying the truth.....no matter how you try and wrap it................!!!!!!!


Quote:
The claim that “97% of scientists agree” is based on 77 anonymous scientists who responded to a an online survey. ...

Actually, there have been several papers:
Quote:
A survey of all peer-reviewed abstracts on the subject 'global climate change' published between 1993 and 2003 ...
Quote:
A survey of 3146 earth scientists ...
Quote:
... an independent study that surveys all climate scientists who have publicly signed declarations supporting or rejecting the consensus.
Quote:
The Vision Prize is an online poll of scientists about climate risk. ...

Approximately 90% of participants responded that human activity has had a primary influence over global temperatures over the past 250 years, with the other 10% answering that it has been a secondary cause, and none answering either that humans have had no influence or that temperatures have not increased.
And those are just the obvious ones.

In addition to which, can you name a single scientific organisation that disagrees with the consensus?
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Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market
Reply #47 - Nov 4th, 2013 at 5:58pm
 
Interesting enough, a number of climate scientists have recently come out in favour of nuclear:

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/11/03/world/nuclear-energy-climate-change-scientists...
Quote:
(CNN) -- Four top environmental scientists raised the stakes Sunday in their fight to reverse climate change and save the planet.

Climate and energy scientists James Hansen, Ken Caldeira, Kerry Emanuel and Tom Wigley have released an open letter calling on world leaders to support development of safer nuclear power systems.

Wait -- pro-nuclear environmentalists? Isn't that an oxymoron? Apparently, not so much anymore.

Embracing nuclear is the only way, the scientists believe, to reverse the looming threat of climate change which they blame on fossil fuels. Depending who you ask, they're either abandoning -- or leading -- traditional environmentalists who for a half-century have rejected clean-burning nuclear power as too expensive or too dangerous. Opponents cite disasters at Fukushima, Chernobyl and Three Mile island.
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