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Dutch face reality of a failed F-35 program (Read 5514 times)
Pantheon
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Dutch face reality of a failed F-35 program
Oct 17th, 2013 at 5:31pm
 
Quote:
The Dutch started their partnership with the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Program with high hopes. Now, if all goes to plan they will end up with a "fighter" aircraft that has far less capability than their existing F-16s.

And pay through the nose for the privilege.

Most of their planning was faith-based depending on Lockheed Martin talking points. The Dutch were told that they cold get an F-35 for the same acquisition price as an F-16. They were told that support costs for the F-35 would be 20 percent less than an F-16. They were told that the F-35 would be more capable. They were told of gold at the end of the rainbow in the form of industry benefits.

None of that is true. The F-35 is a Ponzi-scheme by any other name.

The Dutch thought that they needed 85 F-35s. Interesting since they are now down to an inventory of 60-some F-16s. With their Defence-going-out-of-business-attitude, it is unknown how many of those are combat capable. Or, what the combat readiness is of their F-16 flying units. Along with a different looking threat picture in Europe, the Dutch still have to decide what exactly they want a defense force to accomplish.

Not a place for the extreme-risk and faulty F-35 which 12 years after its' contract award has no credible, working, mission systems. It will have a cost per flying hour up to double that of an F-16 single-seater. The F-35 will cost way more than the same price as an F-16.

The Dutch Court of Audit, (described by Winslow Wheeler, who has over 30 years of experience with U.S. defense acquisition issues, as similar to the U.S. Government Accounting Office), is now, finally, getting a little bit smarter about just how much the Dutch tax payer has been taken to the cleaners over the F-35 mess.

The Dutch Court of Audit has published some thoughts on the F-35.

As we now know, there will not be 85 F-35s for the Dutch. It will be closer to 37. And maybe that is being hopeful given the severe lack of a go-to-war F-35 to examine.

What does the audit office think about the "combat" capability available for their Defence forces?

Best-case, the Dutch will be able to send 4 F-35s on a deployment. As Winslow describes...

"Page 21 explains that 'the deployment objectives have been lowered since 1999 from several squadrons comprising more than 50 aircraft in total [actually it's 72 F-16s], to four aircraft as from the introduction of the JSF.' "

4 F-35s.

For a deployment.

That would assume that the jets work to their required reliability spelled out in the Joint Strike Fighter Joint Operational Requirement Document or "JORD". A document that was composed in the 1990's and signed off on at the beginning of the last decade. That JORD requirement shows the need for high 90-percentile mission capability (MC) rates.

As the sad history of the F-35 program management shows, this may be A Bridge to Far.

It is unlikely that the F-35 will have a credible air-to-air or air-to-ground capability even equal to the current Dutch F-16. The F-35 is unable to fire a heat-seeking missile internally (see how the F-22 deals with rail mounted missiles). Any heat-seeking/high-off-bore-sight (HOBS) missile will be carried outside, like the F-16 only worse.

The F-35's long-range AMRAAM (also used by the F-16) can be jammed down to a Vietnam-era Sparrow air-to-air missile-like probability of kill vs. emerging threats. To date, AMRAAM combat kills have been against poor second and third string threats.

The F-35 air-to-ground ability is nothing special (assuming this ever gets qualified to JORD spec.). The F-16 carries a wider variety of weapons. The F-16 has better performance than the F-35. The F-16 has better cockpit visibility (thermal issues, software issues and a failed helmet means no F-35 DAS except in this video game-like fantasy).

The F-35 helmet is unable to cue weapons due to significant development problems (one being gross over-optimism early in the program). This takes the gun out of the picture for air-to-air and air to ground. This failure takes out HOBS missile cuing for within-visual-range dogfights. This limits other air to ground weapons.

Both the F-16 and F-35 may have trouble against emerging threats, but at least with the F-16 we have established norms to know what those limits are. With the F-35, where the fan-base (industry, politicians,rent-seekers, bought and paid for trade press, and the model airplane glue sniffing brigade) states it can take on just about anything, we find that this is highly unlikely. The F-35 is too expensive to own and operate for lesser threats taken care of well with the F-16 or just about anything else.

As an observer, I am curious just how long the Dutch will allow this charade to continue.

http://elpdefensenews.blogspot.com.au/2013/10/dutch-face-reality-of-failed-f-35.html


Interesting Defence Article by the Dutch.
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[b][center]Socialism had been tried on every continent on earth. In light of its results, it's time to question the motives of its advocates.
 
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Bobby.
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Re: Dutch face reality of a failed F-35 program
Reply #1 - Oct 17th, 2013 at 5:40pm
 
That article backs up the 4 Corners show -

ridiculed on the F35 thread by some posters here.

I was right wasn't I?
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Pantheon
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Re: Dutch face reality of a failed F-35 program
Reply #2 - Oct 17th, 2013 at 5:54pm
 
Quote:
Defence Capability Plan ignores established risk assessment methods



The new Australian Defence Minister, Mr. Johnston, has a lot of work to do.

The giga-dollar F-35 program is--by the definition of Australian government methods (PDF at bottom of link)--an extreme risk project.

Here is what the Defence Capability Plan for 2012 has in relation to F-35 risk: a lot of dead air. I have helped the graphic out by putting red where it belongs: trending way off the chart.


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bY-om8-SP68/Uloe6OzEpAI/AAAAAAAADqM/E4ywnXig_CE/s1600/...

Then there is another blank area for project list. The NACC et el, don't know what they don't know or just refuse to represent the Australian taxpayer: the project is red.


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-xcToQSmjNeM/UlofcpoGwQI/AAAAAAAADqU/tx2FwZ17jLg/s1600/...

This is the risk of the F-35 program not delivering on the promise for Australia. Not surprising when you consider Howard, Hill and Houston jumped in on the program with no credible analysis.


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-xUA_ZRw_4lw/UlogTNMazCI/AAAAAAAADqg/RvKZdMJ2vc0/s1600/...

There is no justification for keeping the F-35 off of the DMO Project of Concern List.

It qualifies.

Currently, 2 Australian F-35s are on the production line.

http://elpdefensenews.blogspot.com.au/2013/10/defence-capability-plan-ignores.html
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[b][center]Socialism had been tried on every continent on earth. In light of its results, it's time to question the motives of its advocates.
 
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Bobby.
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Re: Dutch face reality of a failed F-35 program
Reply #3 - Oct 17th, 2013 at 6:01pm
 
Good posts - further evidence.
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BigOl64
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Re: Dutch face reality of a failed F-35 program
Reply #4 - Oct 17th, 2013 at 6:11pm
 
Pantheon wrote on Oct 17th, 2013 at 5:31pm:
[quote]

Interesting Defence Article by the Dutch.



Actually it is no such thing, this it is a personal blog by some bloke called eric palmer and his opinion about the dutch and their F35s. No wonder booby is wetting his pants, another dumb arse blogger posting personal opinion poorly disguised as fact.


We need to get a lot better at telling the difference between knouwing what is one person's personal opinion and what is a fact supported by valid evidence.




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Datalife
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Re: Dutch face reality of a failed F-35 program
Reply #5 - Oct 17th, 2013 at 6:15pm
 
BigOl64 wrote on Oct 17th, 2013 at 6:11pm:
Pantheon wrote on Oct 17th, 2013 at 5:31pm:
[quote]

Interesting Defence Article by the Dutch.



Actually it is no such thing, this it is a personal blog by some bloke called eric palmer and his opinion about the dutch and their F35s. No wonder booby is wetting his pants, another dumb arse blogger posting personal opinion poorly disguised as fact.


We need to get a lot better at telling the difference between knouwing what is one person's personal opinion and what is a fact supported by valid evidence.




Did you read the IGs report?  I posted the links on the other F-35 page. 

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BigOl64
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Re: Dutch face reality of a failed F-35 program
Reply #6 - Oct 17th, 2013 at 6:54pm
 
Datalife wrote on Oct 17th, 2013 at 6:15pm:
BigOl64 wrote on Oct 17th, 2013 at 6:11pm:
Pantheon wrote on Oct 17th, 2013 at 5:31pm:
[quote]

Interesting Defence Article by the Dutch.



Actually it is no such thing, this it is a personal blog by some bloke called eric palmer and his opinion about the dutch and their F35s. No wonder booby is wetting his pants, another dumb arse blogger posting personal opinion poorly disguised as fact.


We need to get a lot better at telling the difference between knouwing what is one person's personal opinion and what is a fact supported by valid evidence.




Did you read the IGs report?  I posted the links on the other F-35 page. 




Just commenting that this was not a dutch defence report, but one person's personal opinion blog.

I have worked on fighters and they are no fun to get up to speed, the F111 took over a decade after we bought them before they were half decent. So I am already aware that buying this cutting edge defence technology is not the same as buying a fridge when it comes to an easy intergration. This is not new to those of us who understand this type of technology.

Stuff goes wrong and then stuff gets fixed.


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Bobby.
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Re: Dutch face reality of a failed F-35 program
Reply #7 - Oct 17th, 2013 at 7:08pm
 
BigOl64 wrote on Oct 17th, 2013 at 6:54pm:
Datalife wrote on Oct 17th, 2013 at 6:15pm:
BigOl64 wrote on Oct 17th, 2013 at 6:11pm:
Pantheon wrote on Oct 17th, 2013 at 5:31pm:
[quote]

Interesting Defence Article by the Dutch.



Actually it is no such thing, this it is a personal blog by some bloke called eric palmer and his opinion about the dutch and their F35s. No wonder booby is wetting his pants, another dumb arse blogger posting personal opinion poorly disguised as fact.


We need to get a lot better at telling the difference between knouwing what is one person's personal opinion and what is a fact supported by valid evidence.




Did you read the IGs report?  I posted the links on the other F-35 page. 




Just commenting that this was not a dutch defence report, but one person's personal opinion blog.

I have worked on fighters and they are no fun to get up to speed, the F111 took over a decade after we bought them before they were half decent. So I am already aware that buying this cutting edge defence technology is not the same as buying a fridge when it comes to an easy intergration. This is not new to those of us who understand this type of technology.

Stuff goes wrong and then stuff gets fixed.





BigOl,
as if you know something compared to the top
brass & other experts quoted on the forum.

armchair general   Grin
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Brian Ross
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Re: Dutch face reality of a failed F-35 program
Reply #8 - Oct 17th, 2013 at 8:07pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Oct 17th, 2013 at 5:40pm:
That article backs up the 4 Corners show -

ridiculed on the F35 thread by some posters here.

I was right wasn't I?


No, you weren't Bobby.  As I pointed out in the other thread (why do we need yet another thread on this topic?), you didn't even understand what was said in the 4-Corners program.

This article makes the same mistakes.  It looks at the present F-35 prototypes and assumes they are representational of production F-35s.  It also doesn't understand that the Dutch decided to buy early production F-35s, when the cost per unit was high, so obviously the number they could buy for the amount they allocated was always going to be fewer.  Further, they made the error of not understanding what Lockheed Martin were saying about costs.

These are all points that you also refuse to understand, Bobby.   Either deliberately or because you can't.   Roll Eyes
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It seems that I have upset a Moderator and are forbidden from using memes. So much for Freedom of Speech. Tsk, tsk, tsk...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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BigOl64
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Re: Dutch face reality of a failed F-35 program
Reply #9 - Oct 18th, 2013 at 7:02am
 
Bobby. wrote on Oct 17th, 2013 at 7:08pm:
BigOl,
as if you know something compared to the top
brass & other experts quoted on the forum.

armchair general   Grin



No it is you who is the armchair general, you have never serve a day in your life and seem to think that your ignorant opinion based soley ofn the ignorant opinion of other civilians, carries some weight

4 corners has been shown to be very dodgy reporting military stories, at best and then you embrace these civilian bloggers as experts in th field of military fast jets.

Get serious, you're looking more and more pathetic with each post. but at least bad breath has taken your crown from you for most stupid posts on this board. Grin


The reason I know that these problems get fixed, it because that was my job while I served on Pigs.

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Bobby.
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Re: Dutch face reality of a failed F-35 program
Reply #10 - Oct 18th, 2013 at 7:07am
 
BigOl64 wrote on Oct 18th, 2013 at 7:02am:
Bobby. wrote on Oct 17th, 2013 at 7:08pm:
BigOl,
as if you know something compared to the top
brass & other experts quoted on the forum.

armchair general   Grin



No it is you who is the armchair general, you have never serve a day in your life and seem to think that your ignorant opinion based soley ofn the ignorant opinion of other civilians, carries some weight

4 corners has been shown to be very dodgy reporting military stories, at best and then you embrace these civilian bloggers as experts in th field of military fast jets.

Get serious, you're looking more and more pathetic with each post. but at least bad breath has taken your crown from you for most stupid posts on this board. Grin


The reason I know that these problems get fixed, it because that was my job while I served on Pigs.




4 Corners dodgy?

link please.
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BigOl64
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Re: Dutch face reality of a failed F-35 program
Reply #11 - Oct 18th, 2013 at 7:25am
 
Bobby. wrote on Oct 18th, 2013 at 7:07am:
BigOl64 wrote on Oct 18th, 2013 at 7:02am:
Bobby. wrote on Oct 17th, 2013 at 7:08pm:
BigOl,
as if you know something compared to the top
brass & other experts quoted on the forum.

armchair general   Grin



No it is you who is the armchair general, you have never serve a day in your life and seem to think that your ignorant opinion based soley ofn the ignorant opinion of other civilians, carries some weight

4 corners has been shown to be very dodgy reporting military stories, at best and then you embrace these civilian bloggers as experts in th field of military fast jets.

Get serious, you're looking more and more pathetic with each post. but at least bad breath has taken your crown from you for most stupid posts on this board. Grin


The reason I know that these problems get fixed, it because that was my job while I served on Pigs.




4 Corners dodgy?

link please.



Jeez their report on those magical helicopter gunships we supposedly sold the PNGDF that never existed. The  misrepresentation of the RAND report on the F35, which you yourself posted. Also not the first time you have been told this information. write it down if you have to.



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Bobby.
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Re: Dutch face reality of a failed F-35 program
Reply #12 - Oct 18th, 2013 at 7:30am
 
BigOl64 wrote on Oct 18th, 2013 at 7:25am:
Bobby. wrote on Oct 18th, 2013 at 7:07am:
BigOl64 wrote on Oct 18th, 2013 at 7:02am:
Bobby. wrote on Oct 17th, 2013 at 7:08pm:
BigOl,
as if you know something compared to the top
brass & other experts quoted on the forum.

armchair general   Grin



No it is you who is the armchair general, you have never serve a day in your life and seem to think that your ignorant opinion based soley ofn the ignorant opinion of other civilians, carries some weight

4 corners has been shown to be very dodgy reporting military stories, at best and then you embrace these civilian bloggers as experts in th field of military fast jets.

Get serious, you're looking more and more pathetic with each post. but at least bad breath has taken your crown from you for most stupid posts on this board. Grin


The reason I know that these problems get fixed, it because that was my job while I served on Pigs.




4 Corners dodgy?

link please.



Jeez their report on those magical helicopter gunships we supposedly sold the PNGDF that never existed. The  misrepresentation of the RAND report on the F35, which you yourself posted. Also not the first time you have been told this information. write it down if you have to.



No links - just BigOl's worthless opinion.
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Old Codger
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Re: Dutch face reality of a failed F-35 program
Reply #13 - Oct 18th, 2013 at 7:37am
 
Who are the Dutch going to use an F35 against, the Belgians?


....or maybe the french!



OC
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BigOl64
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Re: Dutch face reality of a failed F-35 program
Reply #14 - Oct 18th, 2013 at 8:07am
 
Bobby. wrote on Oct 18th, 2013 at 7:30am:
No links - just BigOl's worthless opinion.



Well my 'worthless' opinion is based on the fact that I was serving in the Gunship Squadon at the time that 4 corners reported that we had sold PNGDF helicopter gunships, which were using them to kill rebels on Bouganville.

My opinion was further reinforced by the fact that I walked out onto the flight line and saw that all our aircraft were still there.


Bit hard to link direct observation now isn't it.


As for the other, you were the one that found the original RAND report into the F35s which directly contradicted the 4 corners program which was based on the deliberate misrepresentation of that report.


If you think my actually being there and your posting of the facts are workthless then, stick to your unrelenting belief in civilian bloggers, it's been working a treat so far hasn't it?  Grin


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