|dev|null wrote on Oct 16^th, 2013 at 1:41pm:
Stop sniffing glue!

Asking the question again for the sake of @Hot Breath

"Why do we need a defence force, when there is no real short term or long term threat to Australia? or at lest greatly shrink the ADF size." ii

|dev|null wrote on Oct 16^th, 2013 at 3:32pm:

We'd all be losers if we had no army and somebody decided to attack our country.

Big Dave wrote on Oct 16^th, 2013 at 4:17pm:



1. We have no enemies;  The only threats we face are from Terrorists and they can be handled by the Police.

2. We are advantageously located;  We are at the Art's End of the Earth, no one has the means to mount an attack on us.

3. We have good relations with all our neighbours and most of the world (relates back to point 1);

So, who is going to attack us?   Why should they?  We are always willing to sell anything we have that they may want.   

|dev|null wrote on Oct 16^th, 2013 at 4:38pm:
At the beginning of the 20th century who would of thought the world would go through 2 world wars. It's a changeable world. Do we pacify our country with the risk of being unprepared when the next big war happens. And it will happen.

|dev|null wrote on Oct 16^th, 2013 at 4:39pm:



Nothing of any substance to discuss, just moronic trolling as you always do on this board. Ad hominum is all you deserve, start presenting a rational valid argument, Ill discuss it with you. Until then, this is what you get from an ex-servicemen .... nothing but contempt

Do we really need a defence force?


It's like insurance ...

if you have it you'll most likely never use it

but you can bet that as soon as you decide to go without, the house burns down.

So my answer is Yes, we really need one.

|dev|null wrote on Oct 17^th, 2013 at 11:23am:


You mean like the treaty we had during WWII? Where the poms said 'bugger you, were busy'?

When push comes to shove you just cannot rely on anyone else.

Bobby. wrote on Oct 17^th, 2013 at 12:26pm:


arms reductions? After years of arms reductions in the USA and Russia, the two countries STILL have enough nuclear weapons to destroy the planet 10 times over. Arms reductions are only good if you have more arms then anyone else to start with.

|dev|null wrote on Oct 17^th, 2013 at 11:23am:



Your argument is that we don't need an ADF

When someone points out it's like an insurance against getting pummeled.

You state that we have ANZUS - ignoring the fact that to be part of ANZUS we need to have the ADF

Then you crap on about not needing an ADF again

It's just smacking embarassing to read 


Might I suggest you troll a subject that you at least have a modicum of knowledge about, this one is way, way beyong your limited comprehension skills

Run away little boy this is for adults only, 

Bobby. wrote on Oct 17^th, 2013 at 12:35pm:



A treaty?

Which one country do you think the treaty should be with?


And then what about the other countries, do want more treaties or are you hoping they won't step into the power void left behind by us and this other country dis-arming ourselves.

BigOl64 wrote on Oct 17^th, 2013 at 1:13pm:


Who said one country?
I meant all SEA countries to get together & sign a common treaty
to reduce spending on arms - which is verifiable!

Old Codger wrote on Oct 17^th, 2013 at 3:42pm:



That has been disbanded.

Maybe APEC could get it started:

http://www.apec.org/about-us/about-apec/member-economies.aspx


All we are saying is give peace a chance.

Old Codger wrote on Oct 17^th, 2013 at 4:36pm:



Would that be because of corporations making so much money
out of selling arms?

Indonesia will have 180 of the latest Russian fighter planes if we do nothing.
What's the solution?

I know - the Yanks can sell us lots of arms too. 


It's called an arms race.

|dev|null wrote on Oct 17^th, 2013 at 3:28pm:



So?

I'm surprise more people don't discount you as functionally retarded, I know I have

.

"Indonesia will have 180 of the latest Russian fighter planes if we do nothing.
What's the solution?"


The 180 copies of Russian crap does not worry me, they are too far away to attack Australia anyway!  They simply do NOT have the range.  Th only nations that buy Russian gear are the ones that cannot afford American.

When Indonesia starts buying warships and landing craft,  then i will sit up and take notice, not before.


OC

Old Codger wrote on Oct 17^th, 2013 at 5:18pm:



All I'm saying is give peace a chance.

If not this arms race will lead to miscalculation & war.

"If not this arms race will lead to miscalculation & war."


They have been saying that since 1945.

Two things, MAD - 'Mutually Assured Destruction' and 'Mutual Terror' saved the world from WW3,  and in particular the Cuban Missile Crisis where we came VERY close!

In fact at the time i would say we are NOT in an arms race!   That ended in 1991.



OC

Yes, i know about SALT 1   and SALT 2   and START.   I have even seen the  guillotined B52s at Davis-Monthan AFB in Tucson AZ.   All lined up so the Russian satellites could photograph and count them to confirm destruction.

The US Congress refused to ratify SALT 2,  and so Pres Reagan ordered them chopped up anyway.



OC

Bobby. wrote on Oct 17^th, 2013 at 4:57pm:


One of your most highly informative posts yet, Bobby.   

Old Codger wrote on Oct 17^th, 2013 at 3:42pm:


Doesn't exist as an effective organisation any more.  Basically started to fall apart the moment the treaty was drafted when it deliberately left the Indo-Chinese nations out, merely making them an "area of special interest."  This gave everybody a "get out of Jail free" card which they could play when the North Vietnamese attacked South Vietnam.   Despite what Menzies claimed, there were no "treaty obligations" WRT to South Vietnam when he announced the commitment of Australian troops to that country's defence.

When the Vietnam War ended, SEATO was quietly disbanded in 1977 and ceased to exist as an effective organisation.

SEATO's major problem was that it was created in the mistaken belief that Communism was under centralised control from the Kremlin, when in reality as a political movement it was made up of a lot of different organisations and individuals who all had their own ideas on how to bring about the Socialist Utopia.

A good case in point were the Vietnamese Communist Party.  While in the Republic of Vietnam, in the South, the US created a complete shadow government and were essentially running the country and the war, in the North, the Politburo would hold meetings to conduct the war in the South and keep the Soviet Ambassador cooling his heels outside in the corridor.  Once a decision had been reached, he was called in and presented with requests for aid.   

Chinese involvement was even more distant.  While 25,000 Chinese troops (primarily labourers on the railways) were committed to North Vietnam, none ventured South and all had been withdrawn by 1970.  The PRC was more of a hindrance than a help in the late 1960s because of the ideological schism between it and the fUSSR.  During the Cultural Revolution it got so bad that Chinese Red Guard cadres would lead riots against trains carrying war materieale' to Hanoi from the fUSSR, damaging essential war supplies. 

That in turn lead the fUSSR to resort to shipping by sea and that in turn allowed the USA to mine the harbour at Haiphong and that, alone with the Christmas Bombing campaign in 1972 brought the North back to the negotiating table and to accept an Armistice.   

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 17^th, 2013 at 8:28pm:



Actually - according to this article Indonesia has changed their minds:

http://en.ria.ru/military_news/20120809/175090713.html


This older article says 180 jet fighters from Russia.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2599072/posts

still won't

Bobby. wrote on Oct 17^th, 2013 at 8:59pm:


That's a recent YaBB problem, seen it on other forums too.

Edit: Probably an anomaly in the latest rollout of government/corporate spyware.

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 18^th, 2013 at 12:18am:



I didn't know that they had changed their mind.
It's not my fault.
Shooting the messenger again.

|dev|null wrote on Oct 16^th, 2013 at 1:41pm:


Do you really need to go on Craigslist for a date?

We have sweet bugger all army, navy, and airforce as it is. It isn't like these guys have been bored for the past 40 years. What if we have an incident that the local and federal police can't handle. You will be wondering what happened to our defence force that allowed Muhammad Allahu Ackbah and his merry band of hobo-looking men the chance to machine gun infidel school children during play time. But that would be quickly answered when you look in the mirror.

Bobby. wrote on Oct 18^th, 2013 at 12:28am:



So you are saying it is not your fault that you, don't do any valid research before formulating and expressing an opinion?

I think BR has every right to 'shoot the messenger', that is the whole point of us taking the time to point out that your lack of research skills and higher comprehension has you stating extremely erronous 'facts' from like minded feebs

WS,

"We have sweet bugger all army, navy, and airforce as it is.'


Certainly not as good as what they could be or should be,  but I would MUCH prefer to be the defending general in Australia,  than the attacking general in Indonesia.

I have said before here, NEITHER country can take on the other and hope to succeed.  The task is simply too big! Indonesia has 13,000 islands, and we have 3 million square miles of very dry dirt.

And waffling on about fighter aircraft is a bit pointless.

OC

BO64,


Pardon me for asking, but are you ex military?


OC

.

.

Bobby. wrote on Oct 18^th, 2013 at 7:31am:



Good thing you don't resort to ad hominum attacks lest you look like a hypocrite 


As a civilian you are used to other people cleaning up after you, in the military we clean up after ourselves.





To answer OC, yeah 10 years, RAAF aircraft technician, F111s and Helicopter Gunships

BO64,


Thanks,  Amberley I presume.

I have an (ex) son in law that spent a lot of time at Oakey.  Started off as  Fitter and Turner and ended up as a Captain.

I had a glorious career in the army.

Went into Pucka as a private in the 20th National Service Battalion in August 1958,  came out a private in late October,  same year. I narrowly escaped demotion!

Both the Army and I were VERY pleased that day!  They DID teach me how to drive a truck!


OC

The question is counter-intuitive, but not so unreasonable as at first it would seem.

Except for when the Japanese threatened Australia with invasion, all our subsequent involvements in wars around the world have been totally unnecessary, and simply at the behest of the USA.

Needless to say, our current involvement in Afghanistan is entirely self-defeating, and absurd as a strategy for defending the people of Australia.

Young men ~ many with young families ~ have been dying over there, with meanwhile the Australian government has been busily engaged in accepting healthy young Afghan men of military age as refugees and migrants.

It's time to pull the plug on this whole nonsense of young Australians being flown way over to the northern hemisphere to play in real war games from which a guaranteed percentage will return in coffins.

Let the Yanks fight their own paranoid overseas wars in future without our help.

Enough is enough.

In reality Australia needs only a very basic, skeletal, and mostly symbolic military defence force, with 90% of our current military hardware mothballed against a future time when these may be needed.

***

The irony is breathtaking.

The only threat within cooee of Australia, now and in the foreseeable future, is that from Islamic terrorism born-and-bred within our own borders ~ and yet our government has Australian soldiers chasing shadows in some godforsaken backwater Middle Eastern country while at the same time sponsoring the influx of tens of thousands of Muslim each year to come increase the likelihood of mass-slaughter in our own homeland.

We are governed by idiots.

Herbert,

Slightly OT,  but my ex son in law has just come back from Afghanistan, his son and daughter have both done 2 tours of the place,  and were mad keen to go.

Grandson has a VERY low opinion of the Aghans,  and reckons they are not worth fighting for.

Grand-Daughter has just finished a year as ADC to General Hurley.



OC

BigOl64 wrote on Oct 18^th, 2013 at 10:05am:



Don't tell me you were one of the poor sods who had to clean out the F111 fuel tanks?

They were all poisoned.

Old Codger wrote on Oct 18^th, 2013 at 8:23am:



Tis place is full of people who have never done anything with thier lives, looking to troll those who serve this country.

I just flame them and move on, not worth any effort in discussing the issues, they're just idiots.

Friendly warning: recent post's are off topic, please return the discussion back to "Do we really need a defence force?"

Pantheon wrote on Oct 18^th, 2013 at 11:30am:


No!

We need the Swiss model in which every man and his dog has a loaded rifle at home, and is instantly on call to rally to certain points to defend the country.

A fully trained Reserve military capability is what Australia needs.

A gun in every home.

At present the only purpose our army and navy serve is to provide a smorgasbord of female-lovelies for the males to sexually harass, film in secret, and upload the porno videos to the internet.

That's all one ever hears when the news is about the services.

Pantheon wrote on Oct 18^th, 2013 at 1:15pm:


We could disband our whole military organisation and for a relatively small annual fee place ourselves under the protective care of the UN's military forces.

Or we could declare ourselves a Neutral Nation.

Or ... scrap all the obsolete military hardware that we now have, and replace these with:

1. One nuclear submarine with long-range intercontinental ballistic missile capability.

2. 10 long-range fighter-bombers with the latest technology.

3. One nuclear aircraft carrier.

4. Only a skeleton crew of technicians to service and man these military logistics.

95% of the current personnel in the various service branches could be retired at enormous savings to the government.

Our current military hardware could be auctioned off to the Third World.

BigOl64 wrote on Oct 18^th, 2013 at 2:35pm:


I've just been a voice-in-the-wilderness saying that all our young fellows and gals should NOT be in harm's way in these silly boutique mini-wars that the US keeps dreaming up for the dancing pleasure of its millions of military personnel.

But that aside, even at my age I'd volunteer to remotely pilot from a comfortable office in Sydney's Pitt street a drone with a nuclear warhead directed towards North Korea...

BigOl64 wrote on Oct 18^th, 2013 at 2:35pm:


Did you know I once handed out scrounged cigarette butts to Japanese war criminals at Stanley Prison in Hong Kong in 1953?

**

If there's anything more ridiculous than the situation of our young men risking their lives in a shooting war in Afghanistan while newly-arrived young afghans are driving taxis in all our major cities ~ then I have yet to hear of it.

It's one of the most flaky, cockeyed scenarios one could ever imagine ~ and it's all sponsored by the imbeciles who run this country.

Lord Herbert wrote on Oct 18^th, 2013 at 4:14pm:




This is what the satelites picture Korea at night. You can see the North Koreans basically spending their time without lights, with only Pyongyang showing some degree of electrical power. The South Koreans living the modern equivalent of any first world country, and able to fund keeping the lights on.

Do you really want to aim a nuclear weapon at that waste of time of a country? It would be a waste of nuclear weapon.

Lord Herbert wrote on Oct 18^th, 2013 at 8:12am:


Except for Malaya and Borneo, Herbie.  Then there was East Timor, not much "behesting" from the USA on that one either.  Then there were various UN commitments and of course our own in The Solomons.  Not much interest or involvement in most of those, Herbie.   

Quote:


Well, you're partially right.  Our involvement in Afghanistan came about because of our then over-zealous Prime Minister, John Howard who wanted to leap onto the George W. Bush bandwagon and prove that Australia was with the USA, rather than agin the USA.   However, we should not ignore that it also came about because we are both a stronger supporter of the US and of International Law.  The US had right on it's side when it declared war against Afghanistan.  The Taliban government had refused to hand over Usama bin Laden, which the US had demanded because of his involvement in the 11 September attacks.   It made good sense to help, both from our own geo-political viewpoint and our alliance responsibilities with the USA.

That the US Government was stupid and decided to withdraw troops at a crucial juncture in the campaign in Afghanistan in order to attack Iraq, is not our fault nor should it necessarily show that there was something wrong with the cassis belli, Herbie.

Quote:


Young Afghan men whom are in danger of persecution, Herbie.  Bit hard to stay and fight when you're in danger of being killed, not only the "enemy" but people who are supposedly on your side as well.   

Quote:


And you are, Herbie a troll and a fool.  A retreat into isolationism is guaranteed to fail.   

Lord Herbert wrote on Oct 18^th, 2013 at 4:14pm:



Your political opinions about Australia's involvement in the Ghan and Iraq aside; we are still conduction operations in Timor Leste and have been since the late 90's. Without a decent defence force, are we to abandon our weaker neighbours to stronger more beligerent countries like we did in '75? An act of cowardice we should be eternally ashamed of, thanks to whitlam and his gutless cronies. 

If you are seen as selfish and cowardly, soon enough you will get to look after yourself and in a time of need everyone will treat you as you deserve.

I would prefer that didn't happen to Australia; we have security obligations to our neighbours, how about we at least try to meet them

WS,


"I believe a study was conducted discreetly as to the capabilities of Indonesian attack against Australia. It concluded that Indonesia could cause massive damage against towns and cities in the north of Australia, but would be repelled before it could get to Cairns, Townsville, and Perth, etc. Secondly, Indonesia wouldn't be able to fund longterm an attack on Australia,"


This claim prompts the obvious question, HOW?

Where are the attack bases sites, what range has her assets?  Are they only fighter aircraft or long range bombers?  What models are available?  Is there a ship borne invasion expected?  How is that invasion going to be mounted.  Where? How will it be re-supplied?

My BS Detector just went off!


OC

.

Herbert,

"Any troops sent overseas for military adventures should be strictly on a volunteer basis."



ANY person who signs up now is a VOLUNTEER for service as required.  His application is not accepted otherwise.  We do NOT have Conscription!    Our grandchildren certainly understood that.

And we do not have referendums for all the decisions made by our ELECTED representatives in Canberra.  They are charged with running the country,  and yoy cannot have a referendum every time a decision comes up.

You would have chaos.


OC

We don't need a large defense force if we organize an arms reduction treaty with our neighbours.

Why has my point been lost in this thread?

You all sound like war mongers.

Bobby. wrote on Oct 19^th, 2013 at 10:26am:




Agreed!

We should all agree to beat our swords into plowshares and live in peace with our neighbours for evermore.

Lord Herbert wrote on Oct 19^th, 2013 at 10:11am:



Please don't reply to my posts in future, that was too much stupid for one day.

Bobby. wrote on Oct 19^th, 2013 at 10:43am:


And if that doesn't work, we can always beat our plowshares into swords ... and use BigOl64 as a Human Shield as we advance upon the enemy.