Australian Politics Forum - Other issues besides the "climate" debate

BatteriesNotIncluded

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Re: Other issues besides the "climate" debate
Reply #45 - Oct 8^th, 2013 at 7:17pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Oct 8^th, 2013 at 3:45pm:

muso wrote on Oct 8^th, 2013 at 3:25pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Oct 8^th, 2013 at 1:23pm:

muso wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2013 at 9:08am:

There are many things that are being overlooked, however our Environmental regulators have a lot more power these days. I gave an example in the Coal Generated power thread.

I like James Lovelock's Gaia Theory.

You DO??? Hmmm that's amusing, sorry muso, but the idea that the Earth is a living organism in it's own right, tends to demolish the whole AGW idea.

OK. You don't understand. That was a strawman on your part.

Quote:

The Gaia hypothesis says that the temperature, oxidation state, acidity, and certain aspects of the rocks and waters are kept constant, and that this homeostasis is maintained by active feedback processes operated automatically and unconsciously by the biota.

- James Lovelock, The Ages of Gaia

Source - University of Michigan
http://www.globalchange.umich.edu/globalchange1/current/lectures/Gaia/

Nowadays, it is actually taken seriously by Earth Sciences professionals. It isn't necessarily accepted holus bolus, but some aspects of it are interesting. I like it mainly because it's an interesting concept.

Actually I DO understand it...However, IF the Earth (and/or the entire biosphere) is an 'aware' entity, or even a quasi-aware entity,(or even a complex system at reacts to ALL parts/actions of the various components of the system), then wouldn't 'human' behavior be a natural, or integral part of the system??

yES, VERY GOOD GIZMO(golf clap for gizmo everyone!!): so the situation circles around our state of awareness then!! Cheesy

Have I, oops, just this minute gone over your head and you no longer wish to go down this path??

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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is. It wouldn't be there without the tax payer. Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know.... (swaggy) *

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Chimp_Logic

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Re: Other issues besides the "climate" debate
Reply #46 - Oct 8^th, 2013 at 7:18pm

muso wrote on Oct 8^th, 2013 at 7:11pm:

Ajax wrote on Oct 8^th, 2013 at 5:31pm:

They only support hand picked proxy data, (1) have you ever heard them say that we once had 20 times the amount of CO2 we have today in our atmosphere and life flourished on Earth....????

1. Yes, but it's 20 times pre-industrial carbon dioxide (around 6000 ppm, but it could have been as low as 2000 ppm) and life flourished in the ocean, not on the land. During the Cambrian, there was a supercontinent called Gondwanaland, which was centred around the South Pole. Now tell me why this is relevant.

Of course this is published data. Where do you think the research came from? Andrew Bolt?

Explain what you mean by hand-picked proxy data?

Are you implying that Mr Bolt isn't up to speed with the latest scientific developments?

(excellent short post btw)

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Mini Ice Age (2014-2029)
Dr Sircus cures cancer with Baking Soda and Magnesium - Jethro the MENTAL GIANT & his flute madness

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Other issues besides the "climate" debate Reply #47 - Oct 8^th, 2013 at 7:35pm I'm sure Andrew Bolt has some admirable qualities that perhaps his mother might be aware of, but I doubt if he knows anything about science.
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Andrei.Hicks

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Re: Other issues besides the "climate" debate
Reply #48 - Oct 8^th, 2013 at 7:39pm

muso wrote on Oct 8^th, 2013 at 7:35pm:

I'm sure Andrew Bolt has some admirable qualities that perhaps his mother might be aware of, but I doubt if he knows anything about science.

Much better we listen to that lovely Al Gore fella?

The bloke who cares for us all - travelling the world on his inheritance from tobacco....

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Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination - Oscar Wilde

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muso

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Re: Other issues besides the "climate" debate
Reply #49 - Oct 8^th, 2013 at 7:43pm

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Oct 8^th, 2013 at 7:39pm:

muso wrote on Oct 8^th, 2013 at 7:35pm:

I'm sure Andrew Bolt has some admirable qualities that perhaps his mother might be aware of, but I doubt if he knows anything about science.

Much better we listen to that lovely Al Gore fella?

The bloke who cares for us all - travelling the world on his inheritance from tobacco....

Al Gore is a politician, and not a particularly good one. He's irrelevant to the science. On the other hand, Andrew Bolt is very relevant to the BS as Gina Rinehart's poster boy.

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« Last Edit: Oct 8^th, 2013 at 7:49pm by muso »

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Ajax

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Re: Other issues besides the "climate" debate
Reply #50 - Oct 8^th, 2013 at 8:18pm

muso wrote on Oct 8^th, 2013 at 7:11pm:

1. Yes, but it's 20 times pre-industrial carbon dioxide (around 6000 ppm, but it could have been as low as 2000 ppm) and life flourished in the ocean, not on the land. During the Cambrian, there was a supercontinent called Gondwanaland, which was centred around the South Pole. Now tell me why this is relevant.

The first mammals appeared about 225 million years ago, since then we have had CO2 levels that have come close to 3000ppm, and mammals thrived.

Quote:

Of course this is published data. Where do you think the research came from? Andrew Bolt?

Andrew Bolt, God bless his soul is only quoting from scientists cause he isn't one............!!!!!!

Quote:

Explain what you mean by hand-picked proxy data?

Well I cant be bothered finding it now, but I showed you a paper not long ago for CO2 and temperature and you rejected it because it stated that CO2 according to the proxy data follows temperature plus it was from the desert of USA, the proxies where from some type of tree.

If it had of supported your case you would have been all over it like a rash.....!!!

Quote:

There is no credible dispute.

WTF are your talking about this is where you guys come unstuck.

No one really knows how much of the increase is due to manmade CO2 emissions, since we are coming out of a mini ice age for the last 400 odds years or so and our sun was very active in the last 30 odd years.

Now our sun is going into an in active period for a few decades as i'm lead to believe, and viola CO2 keeps rising while temperatures have remained flat and might even head south.

So how much is natural and how much is manmade is any bodies guess.

Show me with 100% confidence how they can determine all the CO2 rise is solely due to manmade CO2 emissions....???

Quote:

To fix the problem, we need to stop burning fossil fuels and substitute renewable energy.

Does the IPCC advocate a Carbon Trading system? I doubt it. I'll check it out and let you know. Right. If it's going to be anywhere, it would be in the summary for policy makers.
http://www.climatechange2013.org/images/uploads/WGIAR5-SPM_Approved27Sep2013.pdf

Have a look yourself, but I can't find anything in that document that even mentions Emissions Trading or Carbon Tax.

Are you for real, I think the IPCC invented the concept of carbon pricing.

Playing dumb now muso, try under, Mitigation of Climate Change

http://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_data/ar4/wg3/en/ch11s11-6-2.html

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1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery & prison" Regas Feraeos

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muso

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Re: Other issues besides the "climate" debate
Reply #51 - Oct 9^th, 2013 at 7:23am

Ajax wrote on Oct 8^th, 2013 at 8:18pm:

The first mammals appeared about 225 million years ago, since then we have had CO2 levels that have come close to 3000ppm, and mammals thrived.

Look, this is the graph that you keep producing. What does the CO2 concentration correspond to for that period? That's the black line isn't it?

What is the level of confidence in that number?

The Supercontinent of Pangea was just starting to break up around the end of the Triassic. You might as well be talking about another planet.

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« Last Edit: Oct 9^th, 2013 at 7:45am by muso »

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Ajax

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Re: Other issues besides the "climate" debate
Reply #52 - Oct 9^th, 2013 at 9:59am

muso wrote on Oct 9^th, 2013 at 7:23am:

Ajax wrote on Oct 8^th, 2013 at 8:18pm:

The first mammals appeared about 225 million years ago, since then we have had CO2 levels that have come close to 3000ppm, and mammals thrived.

Look, this is the graph that you keep producing. What does the CO2 concentration correspond to for that period? That's the black line isn't it?

What is the level of confidence in that number?

http://stevengoddard.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/image277-1.gif

The Supercontinent of Pangea was just starting to break up around the end of the Triassic. You might as well be talking about another planet.

Have a look at the 150 million year mark CO2 levels are about 3000ppm, and life flourished.

You dropped the hot spot, you cannot defend the missing heat in the oceans or the ph levels so you keep looking for alternatives.

Have you ever questioned the IPCC's science or do you take it as gospel, what the IPCC says is correct and that there is no need to question it.....????

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1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery & prison" Regas Feraeos

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FriYAY

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Re: Other issues besides the "climate" debate
Reply #53 - Oct 9^th, 2013 at 10:31am

Ajax wrote on Oct 8^th, 2013 at 7:55am:

FriYAY wrote on Oct 7^th, 2013 at 12:50pm:

Phemanderac wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2013 at 10:03am:

It seems to me that regardless of whether or not this particular tiger has teeth or not, rampant pollution continues in short.

Exactly, localised environment degradation will affect a lot more people, a lot sooner than climate change.

Over population and pollution are the elephants in the room, not climate change.

First climate change has always been with us form day dot, otherwise the Earth would still be a molten rock of lava.

The issue is anthropogenic global warming in other words are human emissions of CO2 causing all this warming..???

The climate is always changing whether humans have a influence or not.

Second pricing carbon will not stop corporations dumping chemicals into our rivers oceans and land.

You guys seem to think pricing carbon will stop all forms of pollution and roll pollution into one neat bundle.

No you are wrong pricing carbon will only create a market on wall street to trade carbon credit derivatives.

It will not stop any other form of pollution, and I doubt very much it will reduce human Co2 emissions.

So when you say pollution are you talking about all forms of pollution or just human emissions of CO2....??????

Firstly – I never said I agreed with the climate change theory.

Second – I never mention pricing carbon.

Again, I made no comment on carbon pricing. My personal opinion is the tax should stay as a tax, be cut to alleviate the impost in business and the base of companies and pollutants be expanded and the money collected spent on renewables.

Oh a dam question….

I’m talking about localised environmental degradation of air, land and water.

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Ajax

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Re: Other issues besides the "climate" debate
Reply #54 - Oct 9^th, 2013 at 3:38pm

FriYAY wrote on Oct 9^th, 2013 at 10:31am:

Firstly – I never said I agreed with the climate change theory.

Second – I never mention pricing carbon.

Again, I made no comment on carbon pricing. My personal opinion is the tax should stay as a tax, be cut to alleviate the impost in business and the base of companies and pollutants be expanded and the money collected spent on renewables.

Oh a dam question….

I’m talking about localised environmental degradation of air, land and water.

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1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery & prison" Regas Feraeos

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Innocent bystander Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4220 Gender:	Re: Other issues besides the "climate" debate Reply #55 - Oct 9^th, 2013 at 3:46pm Climate change means more bikini babes on the beach, also I haven't heard of a Siberian complain about global warming yet
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Ajax Gold Member Offline CO2 has never controlled temperature on Earth Posts: 11000 Australia Gender:	Re: Other issues besides the "climate" debate Reply #56 - Oct 9^th, 2013 at 6:49pm Innocent bystander wrote on Oct 9^th, 2013 at 3:46pm: Climate change means more bikini babes on the beach, also I haven't heard of a Siberian complain about global warming yet guess who....??????
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Ajax Gold Member Offline CO2 has never controlled temperature on Earth Posts: 11000 Australia Gender:	Re: Other issues besides the "climate" debate Reply #57 - Oct 9^th, 2013 at 7:15pm closer to home.......??????
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Ajax Gold Member Offline CO2 has never controlled temperature on Earth Posts: 11000 Australia Gender:	Re: Other issues besides the "climate" debate Reply #58 - Oct 9^th, 2013 at 7:24pm Last one.....guess who......????
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greggerypeccary Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 143938 Gender:	Re: Other issues besides the "climate" debate Reply #59 - Oct 9^th, 2013 at 8:23pm Ajax wrote on Oct 9^th, 2013 at 7:24pm: Last one.....guess who......???? http://i44.tinypic.com/k50vbo.jpg Who is this is?
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