Australian Politics Forum - Crusade Means Death, Slaughter, Misery

Soren

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Re: Crusade Means Death, Slaughter, Misery
Reply #15 - Sep 25^th, 2013 at 1:43pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 25^th, 2013 at 1:38pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 25^th, 2013 at 1:14pm:

Please tell us what the sharia-compliant way of leaving Islam is.

I can't seem to find any Islamic scholars explaining how a Muslim can become an openly atheist or Christian person and not be regarded as an apostate.

This has nothing to do with how to leave islam. This is about your absurd concept of an "apostate muslim". An apostate is someone who has abandoned islam - they can't be an apostate and a muslim at the same time. Cheesy

SO the children of Muslim man are not Muslims if the man has left Islam?

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True Colours

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Re: Crusade Means Death, Slaughter, Misery
Reply #16 - Sep 25^th, 2013 at 2:15pm

Soren wrote on Sep 25^th, 2013 at 1:43pm:

SO the children of Muslim man are not Muslims if the man has left Islam?

Soren are you really that retarded or are you just pretending?

If the parents are not Muslim, how is the child brought up as a Muslim?

Soren are you a Jew?

Because Jews are the only religion I know of where they assume automatic religious status for descendants brought up as non-believers - you can get Israeli citizenship if you had one Jewish grandparent even though you do not consider yourself or your parents to be Jews.

That Jewish backfired on them:

Nazis in Israel: Israeli Police Arrest a Homegrown Skinhead Gang

On Sunday police in Israel announced the arrest of eight young immigrants from the former Soviet Union who belonged to a homegrown neo-Nazi cell...

...The young men -- aged 16 to 21 -- were accused of brutal beatings of homosexuals, guest workers, drug addicts, homeless people and ultra-orthodox Jews. A video presented by police to the Israeli cabinet on Sunday documented some of the violence: It showed skinheads kicking victims to a bloody pulp and giving Nazi salutes...

...Police said the cell's leader was Eli Buanitov, a Jewish-descended Russian immigrant who swore in an e-mail never to have children. "I won't have kids," he wrote, according to detectives. "My grandfather is half Yid, so that this piece of trash won't have ancestors with even the smallest percent of Jewish blood."...

...Israel's "law of return" offers citizenship to anyone with Jewish roots traceable to a parent or a grandparent. About a million post-Soviet immigrants have moved to Israel since the Iron Curtain collapsed, making up at least one-seventh of the current population...

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/nazis-in-israel-israeli-police-arrest-a-homegrown-skinhead-gang-a-504803.html

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Crusade Means Death, Slaughter, Misery Reply #17 - Sep 25^th, 2013 at 2:41pm Soren wrote on Sep 25^th, 2013 at 1:43pm: SO the children of Muslim man are not Muslims if the man has left Islam? Of course they're not - are you trying to be funny?
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Soren

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Re: Crusade Means Death, Slaughter, Misery
Reply #18 - Sep 25^th, 2013 at 6:01pm

So we are not all Muslims to start with and all that 'revert' talk is just bollocks?

And there is no such thing as 'Mo said kill anyone who leaves Islam'. It's all a mistranslation and all the people who have been killed because they left Islam are owed an apology fro True Colours and you and all the other Muslims.

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Soren

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Re: Crusade Means Death, Slaughter, Misery
Reply #19 - Sep 26^th, 2013 at 1:20pm

True Colours wrote on Sep 25^th, 2013 at 2:15pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 25^th, 2013 at 1:43pm:

SO the children of Muslim man are not Muslims if the man has left Islam?

Soren are you really that retarded or are you just pretending?

If the parents are not Muslim, how is the child brought up as a Muslim?

The majority (the Hanafis, Shaafa’is and Hanbalis) are of the view that what counts is the Islam of one of the parents, whether it is the father or mother, so the children are to be regarded as Muslims, following the parent, because Islam should prevail and not be prevailed over, because it is the religion of Allah that He is pleased with for His slaves.

Secondly: When the Muslim child reaches the age of puberty, he is not required to utter the Shahaadatayn again.
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/130231

Was there an Islamic court that recognised Obama Sr's apostasy? If not, then he would have been regarded as a Muslim under sharia. In which case his children were also Muslims at birth.

Can you show me how this is incorrect?

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Crusade Means Death, Slaughter, Misery Reply #20 - Sep 26^th, 2013 at 3:40pm Soren wrote on Sep 25^th, 2013 at 6:01pm: So we are not all Muslims to start with and all that 'revert' talk is just bollocks? Thats an entirely different matter, and wasn't what you were talking about.
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Soren

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Re: Crusade Means Death, Slaughter, Misery
Reply #21 - Sep 26^th, 2013 at 5:28pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 3:40pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 25^th, 2013 at 6:01pm:

So we are not all Muslims to start with and all that 'revert' talk is just bollocks?

Thats an entirely different matter, and wasn't what you were talking about.

Not at all.

Was there an Islamic court that recognised Obama Sr's apostasy? If not, then he would have been regarded as a Muslim under sharia. In which case his children were also Muslims at birth.

Can you show me how this is incorrect?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Crusade Means Death, Slaughter, Misery
Reply #22 - Sep 26^th, 2013 at 6:41pm

Soren listen to yourself. Your are becoming more and more unhinged with every post.

The idea that Obama is a muslim is no different to you being a muslim - by the logic you use.

Was there an islamic court that recognised your, or your father's apostasy? In fact, by your logic, every human being on earth who hasn't been recognised as an 'apostate' by an islamic court is muslim. Right?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Soren

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Re: Crusade Means Death, Slaughter, Misery
Reply #23 - Sep 26^th, 2013 at 8:16pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 6:41pm:

Soren listen to yourself. Your are becoming more and more unhinged with every post.

The idea that Obama is a muslim is no different to you being a muslim - by the logic you use.

Bollocks. My father was not a Muslim. His father AND his step father were (and all his fathers' fathers, and their fathers before them, as the poet says.)

When were the Obamas and Soetoros, both born Muslims, release from the bonds of Islam by a sharia recognised Islamic authority?

Or are you saying that anyone can simply declare himself no longer Muslim and that's the end of the matter, they are free to confess any other religion or none under sharia law?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Crusade Means Death, Slaughter, Misery
Reply #24 - Sep 26^th, 2013 at 8:48pm

Soren wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 8:16pm:

Bollocks. My father was not a Muslim. His father AND his step father were (and all his fathers' fathers, and their fathers before them, as the poet says.)

When were the Obamas and Soetoros, both born Muslims, release from the bonds of Islam by a sharia recognised Islamic authority?

Or are you saying that anyone can simply declare himself no longer Muslim and that's the end of the matter, they are free to confess any other religion or none under sharia law?

So why did you bring up that red herring about everyone born a muslim then?

You are completely unintelligible

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Crusade Means Death, Slaughter, Misery
Reply #25 - Sep 26^th, 2013 at 9:35pm

Actually Soren raises an interesting point that I could never get a straight answer on. Supposedly a child born to a Muslim father is considered to be Muslim and must be raised as such. (Not sure how it works with a Muslim mother as Muslim women are forbidden from having sex with non-Muslims) So at some point that child faces the death penalty for apostasy. What point is that?

Also, if everyone is considered a Muslim to start with, at what point can you accuse them of being an apostate for refusing to embrace Islam?

Quote:

Because Jews are the only religion I know of where they assume automatic religious status for descendants brought up as non-believers - you can get Israeli citizenship if you had one Jewish grandparent even though you do not consider yourself or your parents to be Jews.

TC maybe I am splitting hairs here, but being an Israeli citizen and being Jewish by religion are not the same thing. Perhaps you are confused because people use the term Jew to refer to both the religion and the ethnicity.

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« Last Edit: Sep 26^th, 2013 at 9:41pm by freediver »

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Crusade Means Death, Slaughter, Misery
Reply #26 - Sep 27^th, 2013 at 8:07am

freediver wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 9:35pm:

Actually Soren raises an interesting point that I could never get a straight answer on. Supposedly a child born to a Muslim father is considered to be Muslim and must be raised as such. (Not sure how it works with a Muslim mother as Muslim women are forbidden from having sex with non-Muslims) So at some point that child faces the death penalty for apostasy.

Not making a lot of sense - you seem to have left out a step.

freediver wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 9:35pm:

Also, if everyone is considered a Muslim to start with, at what point can you accuse them of being an apostate for refusing to embrace Islam?

if someone is raised as a non-muslim, obviously they can't be held to account for not embracing islam.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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True Colours

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Re: Crusade Means Death, Slaughter, Misery
Reply #27 - Sep 27^th, 2013 at 11:22am

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 27^th, 2013 at 8:07am:

freediver wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 9:35pm:

Actually Soren raises an interesting point that I could never get a straight answer on. Supposedly a child born to a Muslim father is considered to be Muslim and must be raised as such. (Not sure how it works with a Muslim mother as Muslim women are forbidden from having sex with non-Muslims) So at some point that child faces the death penalty for apostasy.

Not making a lot of sense

He doesn't need to make sense. He has stupidity and ignorance on his side. Grin

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« Last Edit: Sep 27^th, 2013 at 11:32am by True Colours »

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freediver

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Re: Crusade Means Death, Slaughter, Misery
Reply #28 - Sep 27^th, 2013 at 12:31pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 27^th, 2013 at 8:07am:

freediver wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 9:35pm:

Actually Soren raises an interesting point that I could never get a straight answer on. Supposedly a child born to a Muslim father is considered to be Muslim and must be raised as such. (Not sure how it works with a Muslim mother as Muslim women are forbidden from having sex with non-Muslims) So at some point that child faces the death penalty for apostasy.

Not making a lot of sense - you seem to have left out a step.

At some stage they are considered to be a Muslim, and therefor subject to the death penalty for apostasy.

Quote:

if someone is raised as a non-muslim, obviously they can't be held to account for not embracing islam.

What if they refuse to embrace Islam even after being introduced to it?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Crusade Means Death, Slaughter, Misery
Reply #29 - Sep 27^th, 2013 at 1:20pm

freediver wrote on Sep 27^th, 2013 at 12:31pm:

At some stage they are considered to be a Muslim, and therefor subject to the death penalty for apostasy.

Presumably there is some step which involves the person changing from a muslim to a non-muslim? You haven't explained what the current religion is of this hypothetical person, and if/when he/she renounced islam.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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