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Yadda

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Re: On Islamic historical sourcing
Reply #120 - Oct 31^st, 2013 at 12:53am

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 30^th, 2013 at 9:32pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 30^th, 2013 at 7:37pm:

Can you please point me to an example where a Muslim has actually said, 'Hey, fellas, we shouldn't follow Muhammed's example in this kind of situation. It is outdated and wrong for our time and society.'

no, because as I just said, his example is recommended Tongue

Mohammed's example is recommended.........expressly, by the moslem deity.

"Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah. "

Koran 33.21i Quote:

But it is not compulsory, that is the point. Hence Brian was not "talking utter bollocks" when he stated "There are many Muslims who look to Mohammed as an example, that does not mean they necessarily wish to slavishly follow his ways."

Really ?

Google;
saudi blogger arrested, mohammed tweets

Google;
saudi blogger sentenced to death

If you are a moslem, YOU HAD BETTER FOLLOW MOHAMMED'S EXAMPLE, OR ELSE [....or at the very least, do not publicly reveal that you do not hold Mohammed in high regard]!

And it has been argued, that the writers of the Koran verses and Hadith, have equated Mohammed's authority with Allah's authority....

e.g.
"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29

Do a search in just the Koran, for;

"Allah and His Messenger"

The implication of that phrase, is obvious, AND BLASPHEMOUS [i.e. denigrating to the majesty of Allah!!!! Cheesy

].

Q.
But in the last 1,400 years, did any moslem dare to question this apparent equality in power, between Mohammed and Allah ?

A.
If any did, the memory of them, and their blood, will have been lost in the sands of time.

Tutorials on ISLAM, given by an Iraqi English speaker.....

Quote:

It was during his Madina period that Muhammad invariably ASSOCIATED himself on an EQUAL footing with Allah!

Allah & his Aposle Know Best! Part 53
http://the-koran.blogspot.com.au/2008/07/allah-his-aposle-know-best-part-53.html

Quote:

Muhammad's Quranic verses of the Madina period, invariably TWINNED & associated Muhammad with Allah on EQUAL terms.

Muhammad & Allah Part 161
http://the-koran.blogspot.com.au/2008/08/muhammad-allah-part-161.html

Quote:

'Allah, AND his apostle'.
Allah and Muhammad equal in importance, and it is clear that whatever does not please Muhammad, the same with Allah.

Part 163 - Muhammad the Humble
http://the-koran.blogspot.com.au/2008/08/muhammad-humble-part-163.html

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Soren

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Re: On Islamic historical sourcing
Reply #121 - Oct 31^st, 2013 at 8:53am

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 30^th, 2013 at 9:32pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 30^th, 2013 at 7:37pm:

Can you please point me to an example where a Muslim has actually said, 'Hey, fellas, we shouldn't follow Muhammed's example in this kind of situation. It is outdated and wrong for our time and society.'

no, because as I just said, his example is recommended Tongue

But it is not compulsory, that is the point. Hence Brian was not "talking utter bollocks" when he stated "There are many Muslims who look to Mohammed as an example, that does not mean they necessarily wish to slavishly follow his ways."

So it's 'recommended' like refraining from apostasy is only 'recommended' (ie it's not strictly compulsory to avoid apostasy but you'd avoid it if you knew what's good for you).

So what are the things Mohammed did and which are OK not to follow today?

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: On Islamic historical sourcing Reply #122 - Oct 31^st, 2013 at 9:55am Soren wrote on Oct 31^st, 2013 at 8:53am: So what are the things Mohammed did and which are OK not to follow today? grow a beard - just off the top of my head.
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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: On Islamic historical sourcing Reply #123 - Oct 31^st, 2013 at 1:29pm polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 31^st, 2013 at 9:55am: Soren wrote on Oct 31^st, 2013 at 8:53am: So what are the things Mohammed did and which are OK not to follow today? grow a beard - just off the top of my head. I thought only the women were exempt from that. (not that all of them take notice...)
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polite_gandalf

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Re: On Islamic historical sourcing
Reply #124 - Oct 31^st, 2013 at 2:18pm

I don't have a beard, and neither do lots and lots of very pious muslims.

Some will claim that sunnah is compulsory, but I think they are in the minority. Or at least most muslims distinguish between what sunnah is recommended, and what is, you might term, "highly recommended". Prayer is the most commonly talked about sunnah - those prayers that can be performed between the 5 obligatory prayers. There is also the extra prayers you can perform after the 4 obligatory taraweh prayers during ramadan.

Other sunnah include circumcision, periodic fasting outside the official month of fasting, taking wudu before sleep etc

Proof that the prophet intended some examples of his (especially pertaining to religion) to be compulsory, and some to be optional is in the hadith in which he states:

Quote:

I am but a human being, so when I command you about a thing pertaining to religion, do accept it, and when I command you about a thing out of my personal opinion, keep it in mind that I am but a human being. You have better knowledge (of a technical skill) in the affairs of the world

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Soren

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Re: On Islamic historical sourcing
Reply #125 - Nov 1^st, 2013 at 5:15pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 31^st, 2013 at 2:18pm:

I don't have a beard, and neither do lots and lots of very pious muslims.

Some will claim that sunnah is compulsory, but I think they are in the minority. Or at least most muslims distinguish between what sunnah is recommended, and what is, you might term, "highly recommended". Prayer is the most commonly talked about sunnah - those prayers that can be performed between the 5 obligatory prayers. There is also the extra prayers you can perform after the 4 obligatory taraweh prayers during ramadan.

Other sunnah include circumcision, periodic fasting outside the official month of fasting, taking wudu before sleep etc

Proof that the prophet intended some examples of his (especially pertaining to religion) to be compulsory, and some to be optional is in the hadith in which he states:

Quote:

I am but a human being, so when I command you about a thing pertaining to religion, do accept it, and when I command you about a thing out of my personal opinion, keep it in mind that I am but a human being. You have better knowledge (of a technical skill) in the affairs of the world

So matters of practice are a bit looser than matters of principle. It makes me wonder whether the bits that urge the killing of infidels, the waging of war on the unbelievers until they submit or are killed - are those matters of practice or principle?

Which Muslims without beards or otherwise are repuditating those verses and hadiths and sunna and examples of Mohammed?

And how do they do it and still remain pious Muslims and regarded as such by those who do not repudiate these particular examples and teachings?

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freediver

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Re: On Islamic historical sourcing
Reply #126 - Nov 1^st, 2013 at 9:53pm

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 27^th, 2013 at 8:18pm:

freediver wrote on Oct 27^th, 2013 at 7:38pm:

I get a chuckle every time you use the anti-semitic Jew argument to prove that Muslims do not follow Muhammed's lead.

I'm not. Gee, your thatching skills are looking better every day, FD. Roll Eyes

Your argument was that Muslims don't want to bring back Muhammed's standards. When questioned on this ludicrous suggestion, you gave as evidence some anti-semitic Jews and Christians who you appear to think reject Jesus' teachings. But not - and still not - any Muslims who reject Muhammed's standards.

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 30^th, 2013 at 9:32pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 30^th, 2013 at 7:37pm:

Can you please point me to an example where a Muslim has actually said, 'Hey, fellas, we shouldn't follow Muhammed's example in this kind of situation. It is outdated and wrong for our time and society.'

no, because as I just said, his example is recommended Tongue

But it is not compulsory, that is the point. Hence Brian was not "talking utter bollocks" when he stated "There are many Muslims who look to Mohammed as an example, that does not mean they necessarily wish to slavishly follow his ways."

Gandalf, do you know any Muslims who don't want to bring back Muhammed's standards?

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 26^th, 2013 at 6:37pm:

Yes? As long as you keep thinking all Muslims want to "bring back Muhammed's standards," FD, I think you have a problem with your bigoted viewpoint. Roll Eyes

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Brian Ross

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Re: On Islamic historical sourcing
Reply #127 - Nov 1^st, 2013 at 11:31pm

freediver wrote on Nov 1^st, 2013 at 9:53pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 27^th, 2013 at 8:18pm:

freediver wrote on Oct 27^th, 2013 at 7:38pm:

I get a chuckle every time you use the anti-semitic Jew argument to prove that Muslims do not follow Muhammed's lead.

I'm not. Gee, your thatching skills are looking better every day, FD. Roll Eyes

Your argument was that Muslims don't want to bring back Muhammed's standards. When questioned on this ludicrous suggestion, you gave as evidence some anti-semitic Jews and Christians who you appear to think reject Jesus' teachings. But not - and still not - any Muslims who reject Muhammed's standards.

Actually, Freediver I didn't present them as evidence of anything, other than your request to find them. Lets see what you said, shall we?

freediver wrote on Oct 26^th, 2013 at 6:40pm:

Quote:

Yes? As long as you keep thinking all Muslims want to "bring back Muhammed's standards," FD, I think you have a problem with your bigoted viewpoint.

Would you mind pointing out one of these "anti-Muhammedan" Muslims? While your at it, find us and anti-semitic Jew and a Christian who rejects Jesus' example.

I never attempted to "point out one of these "anti-Muhammedan Muslims". I merely answered your request to find you "and[sic] anti-semitic Jew and a Christian who rejects Jesus' example."

You acknowledged I had. I carefully limited my research to finding that mysterious "anti-semitic Jew and a Christian who rejects Jesus' example."

You have yet to prove your case that Muslims slavishly seek to imitate Mohammed.

So, FD, who is now attempting to erect a strawman argument, Mmmm? Roll Eyes

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It seems that I have upset a Moderator and are forbidden from using posting to the general forum now. So much for Freedom of Speech. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: On Islamic historical sourcing Reply #128 - Nov 2^nd, 2013 at 6:31am freediver wrote on Nov 1^st, 2013 at 9:53pm: Gandalf, do you know any Muslims who don't want to bring back Muhammed's standards? Define "standards".
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freediver

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Re: On Islamic historical sourcing
Reply #129 - Nov 2^nd, 2013 at 9:24am

Quote:

Define "standards".

Moral standards will do.

Quote:

I never attempted to "point out one of these "anti-Muhammedan Muslims".

You brought it up. You claim they exist on a regular basis. I have asked you why you so readily point out anti-semitic Jews, Christians who you think reject Jesus, but cannot come up with an example of a Muslim who rejects Muhammed's standards.

Being unable to back up your own argument is hardly a sound argument.

Quote:

I carefully limited my research to finding that mysterious "anti-semitic Jew and a Christian who rejects Jesus' example."

Why? Is this some unknown principle of spineless apologetics you are yet to reveal to the world?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: On Islamic historical sourcing Reply #130 - Nov 3^rd, 2013 at 8:29am freediver wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2013 at 9:24am: Moral standards will do. Yes this line of discussion will go far
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 51899 At my desk.	Re: On Islamic historical sourcing Reply #131 - Nov 3^rd, 2013 at 8:37am Don't you know what a moral standard is? Would you mind offering your opinion on the "anti-Muhammedan" Muslims that Brian keeps bringing up?
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Brian Ross

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Re: On Islamic historical sourcing
Reply #132 - Nov 3^rd, 2013 at 5:33pm

freediver wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2013 at 9:24am:

Quote:

I never attempted to "point out one of these "anti-Muhammedan Muslims".

You brought it up.

Yes I did, didn't I? Roll Eyes

Quote:

You claim they exist on a regular basis.

Yes, I do, don't I? Roll Eyes

Quote:

I have asked you why you so readily point out anti-semitic Jews, Christians who you think reject Jesus, but cannot come up with an example of a Muslim who rejects Muhammed's standards.

Ah, now you're asking a different question, FD from the one you originally did. Roll Eyes

Quote:

Being unable to back up your own argument is hardly a sound argument.

I would be prepared to suggest that a large majority of Muslims don't wish to emulate Mohammed in the killing of PoWs, FD. Can you prove otherwise? Roll Eyes

Quote:

I carefully limited my research to finding that mysterious "anti-semitic Jew and a Christian who rejects Jesus' example."

Why? Is this some unknown principle of spineless apologetics you are yet to reveal to the world?

Nope, merely answering the question you asked, FD. Roll Eyes

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It seems that I have upset a Moderator and are forbidden from using posting to the general forum now. So much for Freedom of Speech. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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freediver

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Re: On Islamic historical sourcing
Reply #133 - Nov 3^rd, 2013 at 7:33pm

Quote:

Ah, now you're asking a different question, FD from the one you originally did.

I have asked it before. I got no response the first time. Now I have a response, but still nothing like an answer. Are you sure you aren't a Muslim? Are we going to get into an argument over whether I have already asked the question, spend a few pages resolving it in the affirmative, only for you to slink off and avoid the actual question?

Quote:

I would be prepared to suggest that a large majority of Muslims don't wish to emulate Mohammed in the killing of PoWs, FD. Can you prove otherwise?

I have never met a Muslim who said that it was wrong for Muhammed to do it or who did not attempt to justify it. I have met Muslims (eg Abu) who said that they would prefer to let someone else do all the "chopping people's heads off" side of Islam, but not that it should not happen.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: On Islamic historical sourcing Reply #134 - Nov 4^th, 2013 at 12:32pm freediver wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2013 at 8:37am: Don't you know what a moral standard is? Would you mind offering your opinion on the "anti-Muhammedan" Muslims that Brian keeps bringing up? "anti-Muhammedan muslim" eh - yes I'm sure thats a totally accurate reflection on what Brian said.
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