Australian Politics Forum - Muslims want to silence and intimidate you

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #360 - Apr 25^th, 2014 at 8:25pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 25^th, 2014 at 8:14pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 25^th, 2014 at 8:01pm:

Not immediate designs, but we would have been a lonely outpost in a world governed by ruthless dictators, and we would have just lost a war. It would have only been a matter of time until the Germans, Japanese or someone else took over.

What, and the areas occupied by Japan were otherwise beacons of democracy and freedom? LOL

The reality is Australia at the time existed in a colonised and oppressed world.

Colonialism brought civilisation to backward peoples. Colonialism ended too soon in most cases - most post-colonial societies are resentful of the very thing that was pulling them out of their backwardness.

Look at the Arabs and the SE Asian Muslim countries - Malaysia and Indonesia. They are suffering from being cut loose too soon. They have some of the civilised institutions but they do not know how to use them because they gained independence (left school) too soon. They are the unskilled nations, like teenagers who left school at 14.

Back to top

IP Logged

Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you Reply #361 - Apr 25^th, 2014 at 8:46pm Muslims do not want you to know that Islam is behind terrorism. But it is. Radical Islam is a threat to the world. Come on kids, say it. You know it's rue.
Back to top	« Last Edit: Apr 25^th, 2014 at 8:52pm by Soren » IP Logged

Karnal

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 97624

Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #362 - Apr 25^th, 2014 at 9:42pm

freediver wrote on Apr 25^th, 2014 at 7:22pm:

Quote:

If anyone actually believed that - then yes.

So what would have happened if the Nazis and Japanese had won?

Quote:

None. WWII is not the only war though.

So both the leaders and the troops in WWII were doing it to protect their freedoms?

Quote:

A more appropriate example is the so called war on terror, which is constantly invoked in order to deprive us of rights.

Such as?

Such as?

Why don’t you go back to your 2007 posts and tell us.

Maybe you can quote yourself and tell us all what freedoms we lost in the proxy war on terror.

Then you can question yourself for 20 pages and have a good old chuckle.

Back to top

IP Logged

Karnal

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 97624

Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #363 - Apr 25^th, 2014 at 9:46pm

Soren wrote on Apr 25^th, 2014 at 8:12pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 25^th, 2014 at 1:33pm:

Economic dominance caused by Freedom?

You seem to have missed the point that most of the Western world has been in a sustained economic recession since 2008.

And this recession is a direct result of the lack of US and European financial regulation.

Freedom for some, but not others. There’s no freedom in getting a loan if you can’t pay it back. And there’s no freedom in investing in such dodgy financial products and losing your shirt. Economic dominance is caused by cheap and easy credit - until the house comes tumbling down.

Until now, Australia has survived the global recession - like Brazil, like Canada, like Russia - because of our dirt, not our Freedom.

But we’ve only survived because China keeps buying our dirt. China’s dominance is not caused by Freedom, but by credit. All those Chinese workers give their savings to the princelings’ banks, and the government keeps the interest low. In return, the princelings lend the money out to the government’s friends, who build things, pay bribes, and keep the economy - and our economy - going.

Not Freedom, FD. Our economic dominance is thanks to dirt, a billion people’s savings, and bribes.

Always, absolutely, never ever. This is the way capitalism works, and has done since it was invented by the Dutch East Indies Company.

Eyewateringly stupid neoMarxist poppycock. China will go the way of Japan. Japan was hailed as the new superpower before it went bust in the 90s.

China will bust before the decade is out. Corruption and oppression are not a business model - unless you are a commie or a PB.

Or Australia. Or the US.

If China busts, we bust.

You can always shut up shop and go back to the old country, dear boy.

You will always have cheese, no?

Back to top

IP Logged

austranger

Gold Member

Offline

Opinionated Sod

Posts: 1506
adelaide
Gender: male

Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #364 - Apr 26^th, 2014 at 3:32am

It's not the Muslims who are trying to silence and intimidate, it's not the Chinese who are corrupt and venal, it's not the Americans who are corrupt and anti-democratic, in each and every case it's the Leaders, the Power-Elites, the ones in charge.
There was a very good line in a Japanese movie I saw recently...

Government serves the governors, not the governed.

The world as it is today demonstrates that fact clearly.

Back to top

Any day with a smile in it is a good day

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 49841
At my desk.

Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #365 - Apr 26^th, 2014 at 5:49am

Quote:

The reality is Australia at the time existed in a colonised and oppressed world. I fail to see what difference it makes to Australia's economic fortunes if our neighbours were occupied by Japanese instead of by French Dutch and British.

Of course. You cannot tell the difference between the freedom and democracy of the western world with the oppressive dictatorships that Japan and Germany attempted to replace it with. To you it is all just colonialism, economic hegemony and poo jokes.

Germany had plans on colonisation. It was pissed off about losing it's African colonies after WWI and planned to restart that process. If Japan had not directly taken over Australia, there is a good chance Germany would have, eventually.

Quote:

The British and American empires were being threatened by emerging powers that were at that point being stifled economically by the economic and military reach of those two empires, and attacked accordingly.

You criticise the US and Britain for 'greedy clonialism', but you you make excuses for Hitler the same way you do for Muhammed.

Quote:

Of course the British and Americans defended themselves from these attacks. If you want to spin this as fighting for our freeeeeedums - then thats fine by me.

The fact is, a big chunk of the world has freedom and democracy today because the UK, France and then the US genuinely valued freedom and democracy and defended it from people like the Nazis, and even exported it (yes I concede it was sporadic). Shortly after WWII, the UK voluntarily dissolved the remnants of it's empire. It simply does not make sense that it fought WWII to hold onto that empire. The US gained no empire out of it. The British and American people, and their leaders, and most of their allies had a genuinely different vision for the world to the Nazis and Japanese. You cannot tell that difference because you do not share our values. To you it is merely 'wishy washy western liberal morals' that we cynically use to attack Islam. You are either hostile or indifferent to the very values that make our society great, to the extent that you cannot appreciate how much worse the whole world would have been, including the dire consequences for us, if the Nazis and Japanese had won WWII.

Islam makes you this way. It is a retrograde force. It is the greatest modern barrier to the march of freedom and democracy.

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

polite_gandalf

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 20027
Canberra
Gender: male

Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #366 - Apr 26^th, 2014 at 9:13am

freediver wrote on Apr 26^th, 2014 at 5:49am:

Of course. You cannot tell the difference between the freedom and democracy of the western world with the oppressive dictatorships that Japan and Germany attempted to replace it with. To you it is all just colonialism, economic hegemony and poo jokes.

There was no freedom and democracy in Asian colonies that the Japanese took over. Many of them welcomed the Japanese as liberators.

freediver wrote on Apr 26^th, 2014 at 5:49am:

Germany had plans on colonisation. It was pissed off about losing it's African colonies after WWI and planned to restart that process. If Japan had not directly taken over Australia, there is a good chance Germany would have, eventually.

Good God

freediver wrote on Apr 26^th, 2014 at 5:49am:

You criticise the US and Britain for 'greedy clonialism', but you you make excuses for Hitler the same way you do for Muhammed.

False.

freediver wrote on Apr 26^th, 2014 at 5:49am:

The British and American people, and their leaders, and most of their allies had a genuinely different vision for the world to the Nazis and Japanese. You cannot tell that difference because you do not share our values.

Of course they did. If you could get through just one reply without constructing a ridiculous strawman that would be great. No one is defending the fascist Japanese and German regimes, they were brutal and aggressive and it was good that they were defeated. But you can't ignore the historical context in which they emerged, and you can't ignore the economic hegemonic interests that the allied powers were fighting for. The idea that they simply felt compelled to intervene out of some altruistic passion for democracy and freedom is absurd. In fact you could probably build the same democracy and freedom argument for the allies joining the nazis in fighting Stalin.

Back to top

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #367 - Apr 26^th, 2014 at 12:24pm

If China busts (ie goes to 0-2 % growth), others will take it's place. China took Japan's place. Indonesia, Bangladesh, Thailand are already taking entry level jobs from China. There are other countries, poorer than China, who will be eager to step in when China finally prices itself out of cheap manufacturing. Remember, Japan started just like that, in the 50s.

Corruption, graft and repression are not sustainable business models. With increased incomes, the Chinese will want increased political freedoms, including decentralisation. China is an empire, not a confederation.

Back to top

IP Logged

Karnal

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 97624

Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #368 - Apr 26^th, 2014 at 1:06pm

Soren wrote on Apr 26^th, 2014 at 12:24pm:

If China busts (ie goes to 0-2 % growth), others will take it's place. China took Japan's place. Indonesia, Bangladesh, Thailand are already taking entry level jobs from China. There are other countries, poorer than China, who will be eager to step in when China finally prices itself out of cheap manufacturing. Remember, Japan started just like that, in the 50s.

Corruption, graft and repression are not sustainable business models. With increased incomes, the Chinese will want increased political freedoms, including decentralisation. China is an empire, not a confederation.

We agree - with the exception that corruption, graft and repression are not good business models.

This is how the world has been run for centuries, possibly millenia. It’s how Australia does business in China, and its how Australia does business with every corrupt regime. Remember the Australian Wheat Board paying bribes to a country we officially supported sanctioning.

If you knew how Chinese in China thought, you wouldn’t post such nice thoughts for them. Things are changing, but most have no idea how things are in the West, or that things can be done any other way. Propaganda and censorship are still rife. And people believe it.

Personally, I think this has to change in the social media era, but I don’t hold my breath. China may very well not change much.

The reason China will surpass the US economically? Population.

"Freedom" means bugger all.

Back to top

IP Logged

Karnal

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 97624

Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #369 - Apr 26^th, 2014 at 1:35pm

freediver wrote on Apr 26^th, 2014 at 5:49am:

Quote:

The reality is Australia at the time existed in a colonised and oppressed world. I fail to see what difference it makes to Australia's economic fortunes if our neighbours were occupied by Japanese instead of by French Dutch and British.

Of course. You cannot tell the difference between the freedom and democracy of the western world with the oppressive dictatorships that Japan and Germany attempted to replace it with. To you it is all just colonialism, economic hegemony and poo jokes.

Germany had plans on colonisation. It was pissed off about losing it's African colonies after WWI and planned to restart that process. If Japan had not directly taken over Australia, there is a good chance Germany would have, eventually.

Quote:

The British and American empires were being threatened by emerging powers that were at that point being stifled economically by the economic and military reach of those two empires, and attacked accordingly.

You criticise the US and Britain for 'greedy clonialism', but you you make excuses for Hitler the same way you do for Muhammed.

Quote:

Of course the British and Americans defended themselves from these attacks. If you want to spin this as fighting for our freeeeeedums - then thats fine by me.

The fact is, a big chunk of the world has freedom and democracy today because the UK, France and then the US genuinely valued freedom and democracy and defended it from people like the Nazis, and even exported it (yes I concede it was sporadic). Shortly after WWII, the UK voluntarily dissolved the remnants of it's empire. It simply does not make sense that it fought WWII to hold onto that empire. The US gained no empire out of it. The British and American people, and their leaders, and most of their allies had a genuinely different vision for the world to the Nazis and Japanese.

The British and Amerikans had very different visions of the world prior to, and during, WWII. The US wanted to dissolve the British Empire. Why?

Roosevelt didn’t like colonies, sure. But more importantly, the US didn’t like trade blocs. All those Asian and Middle Eastern countries were under the spell of Mother England, and while this happened, the US didn’t get its hands on the spoils, which included resources and markets.

All this changed, of course, after the Amerikan entry into the war. Once in, we became a bi-polar world with the US and Soviet Union. Britain couldn’t possibly hold onto its colonies after WWII, and there was no desire to. In Britain, the sense of self sacrifice and equality the war had mobilized was applied to peacetime. In the colonies, the Japanese resistance became a struggle for independence from Mother - but not Uncle or the Soviets.

The US hegemony after the war was a new form of empire. The Soviet Union was an old form of empire in the mould created by Peter the Great The US led through exports and trade, but most importantly, through its hugely influential network of alliances with its "friends", counterbalanced by its "Cold War" covert action against its enemies. The US did not need to occupy anything. The occupation of Japan and Berlin became a huge burden, and really, why bother?

The US simply installed friendly regimes in secret, trained their armies and armed them well - everyone from Diem in Vietnam to Nasser in Egypt to Suharto in Indonesia to Pinochet, the Contras, and various generals and dictators around the world, all of them completely undemokratic and anti-"Freedom".

With friends like these, who needs enemies?

Without a doubt, the US liberated large chunks of the world in WWII. Perhaps equally importantly, it saved many from the Soviet alternative. But when Japanese and German exports started to compete - and then take over US exports in the 1970s, things turned grim. The US got desperate, and its foreign policy direction turned to how it could assert its influence on the world and its resources, particularly oil.

With the invasion of Iraq in 2003, the US lost its former "Freedom" credentials. When it subsequently failed in its occupation, the world saw the US for what it now was, a caricature of its former self, the Abu Graib prison pictures the symbol of what the US had become.

The US is nice if you’re doing alright, as we are. But the US is not nice if you’re from Central America, the Middle East, or any of the other places the US has fought or stifled demokracy and "Freedom".

During the Cold War, the US had good reasons for installing corrupt, anti-communist dictators and their torture chambers. But when the wall came down and the US became number one, there was no justification for business as usual.

Clinton found his niche with the global free trade agenda, but the US electorate turned against this - the reason they voted the supposedly isolationist George Bush. After the 2000 tech stock collapse, something had to be done. After the" convenient" sept 11 attacks, the US went global again - this time, in a nakedly exploitative conquest of what just happened to be tthe world’s 2nd biggest source of oil.

A trillion dollars later, the US has lost its shirt, and its reputation. Obama has not restored it. US trade has not redeemed it. The US is in a very weak position today, as shown in Syria, and now the Ukraine. This is good, this is how it should be - if Putin doesn’t prove to be Hitler.

And if China doesn’t turn out to be Tojo.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Apr 26^th, 2014 at 2:47pm by Karnal »

IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #370 - Apr 26^th, 2014 at 8:24pm

Karnal wrote on Apr 26^th, 2014 at 1:06pm:

Soren wrote on Apr 26^th, 2014 at 12:24pm:

If China busts (ie goes to 0-2 % growth), others will take it's place. China took Japan's place. Indonesia, Bangladesh, Thailand are already taking entry level jobs from China. There are other countries, poorer than China, who will be eager to step in when China finally prices itself out of cheap manufacturing. Remember, Japan started just like that, in the 50s.

Corruption, graft and repression are not sustainable business models. With increased incomes, the Chinese will want increased political freedoms, including decentralisation. China is an empire, not a confederation.

We agree - with the exception that corruption, graft and repression are not good business models.

This is how the world has been run for centuries, possibly millenia. It’s how Australia does business in China, and its how Australia does business with every corrupt regime. Remember the Australian Wheat Board paying bribes to a country we officially supported sanctioning.

If you knew how Chinese in China thought, you wouldn’t post such nice thoughts for them. Things are changing, but most have no idea how things are in the West, or that things can be done any other way. Propaganda and censorship are still rife. And people believe it.

Personally, I think this has to change in the social media era, but I don’t hold my breath. China may very well not change much.

The reason China will surpass the US economically? Population.

"Freedom" means bugger all.

Ah... but when the world was run corruptly, everyone was corrupt. They were all corrupt within their own little fiefdoms.

What you forget is that there has been differentiation - some countries (rich ones) have gotten rid of corruption. Now rich countries are making painstaking efforts to get rid of every kind of corruption, even the appearance of corruption.
They promote the rule of law (dreadful white/colonial/nonMarxist/preFoucauldian notion, that) which means ..er... the rule of law. The corollary is openness, free press, freedom of speech, open access to lawmaking (Hansard and representative democracy)- all the things that you so casually dismiss as meaningless.

Freedom is everything. It's the difference between Athens and Persia - and the difference between all other ideological conflicts since.

Freedom means people having a say in the laws that govern them. There is no way around that. You create wealth, you send your sons to serve in the army, you look after your old,sick and decrepit - you want a say in how the place is run. That's freedom.
To say freedom is meaningless is to be wilfully stupid for the heck of it. Or to be so hobbled by ideology as to be stupid for the heck of it.

'Freedom means bugger all ' is a stupid, hollow slogan worthy only of clapped out intellectoids like you. You are a bitter old queen, PB, and your intellectual pretensions are just that, pretentious puffery.

Back to top

IP Logged

Karnal

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 97624

Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #371 - Apr 26^th, 2014 at 9:05pm

Send your sons to serve in the army?

Thank you so much for your contribution to our fine country, old chap. I, for one, am.most grateful you came.

And thank you for standing up for Freedom. It’s certainly a first.

Don’t worry, dear, we will continue to look after our decrepid.

You’re in good hands with us.

Back to top

IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #372 - Apr 26^th, 2014 at 9:50pm

Karnal wrote on Apr 26^th, 2014 at 9:05pm:

Send your sons to serve in the army?

Thank you so much for your contribution to our fine country, old chap. I, for one, am.most grateful you came.

And thank you for standing up for Freedom. It’s certainly a first.

Don’t worry, dear, we will continue to look after our decrepid.

You’re in good hands with us.

You are so reliable, PB, you will always take the wrong side in any topic.

Freedom? You are against it. It's a white phallocentric (you like that!) heteronormative construct. Except when accommodating homosexuals like you.
Terrorism? You are excusing it (as long as it is done by tinted aliens, esp if Musulman).
Musulmans? - can do no wrong. If doing wrong, it's your fault, due to you white homosexual privilege.
Kiddie fiddling? You are excusing it as long as it's by aliens. White homosexuals like you are not discussed.
Western civilisation? You are against it.
Fvckault? All for him. A homosexual, so he can't be wrong. Ever.
Amerikkka? Easy target -so you are all against it.
UK - ditto - easy target, you are all against it.
Tinted primitives? - how very dare I? You are all for them, no matter what. Being tinted will excuse anything for you.

Back to top

IP Logged

Karnal

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 97624

Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #373 - Apr 26^th, 2014 at 11:11pm

Always, absolutely, never ever, eh?

I must have heard that sermon at least ten times, old boy. Do you ever say anything that’s not a recording?

We do sympathise, you know. It can’t be easy with your sons off in the war and your - you know, condition.

You have a nice lie down. We’ll have someone see to you in the morning, dear.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Apr 26^th, 2014 at 11:21pm by Karnal »

IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #374 - Apr 26^th, 2014 at 11:44pm

Karnal wrote on Apr 26^th, 2014 at 11:11pm:

Always, absolutely, never ever, eh?

I must have heard that sermon at least ten times, old boy. Do you ever say anything that’s not a recording?

We do sympathise, you know. It can’t be easy with your sons off in the war and your - you know, condition.

You have a nice lie down. We’ll have someone see to you in the morning, dear.

Evasive like a fvckn Paki Bvgger.

The point is - you are reflexively and automatically on the wrong side of every argument.
Whatever you say, you are wrong - because you are not thinking. Instead, you are conforming to a particular stupidity (neoMarxism, Fvckauld, whatever).

You just can't think straight (ie non-ideologically). You are just not smart enough to think beyond the lazy 60s agit-prop. You are an old reactionary, PB.

But what am I saying? You wouldn't understand any of this. Go on, tell us about stool and nurses and all that. Show us how incomprehending you are.

Back to top

IP Logged