Australian Politics Forum - Muslims want to silence and intimidate you

polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you Reply #135 - Jun 17^th, 2013 at 10:38pm come on FD, use your head please. Its all about the intention.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49841 At my desk.	Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you Reply #136 - Jun 18^th, 2013 at 8:56am Did the people who created and brought the placards intend the protest to become violent? Did they intend their placard to incite this violence?
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you Reply #137 - Jun 18^th, 2013 at 9:55pm 1. Don't know and irrelevant 2. Obviously
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freediver

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #138 - Jun 19^th, 2013 at 12:22pm

Are you saying it is obvious that they intended the placards to incite violence at the protest, but also irrelevant whether they intended for the protest to become violent?

Why is it obvious that they intended the placards to incite violence?

Also, I still haven't gotten anything resembling a straight answer from you on the issue of where you would draw the line.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #139 - Jun 19^th, 2013 at 1:48pm

I read it wrong. I read it as "did they intend their placard to incite violence?" - not "did they intend their placard to incite this violence?"

Absolutely yes, they intended the placard to incite violence: they want violence meted out to people who insult the prophet, to stop them as well as intimidate others who might be considering insulting the prophet. If you come to the party making a threat, the default position has to be that you mean it - otherwise why would you be making it? Is there any disclaimer on the placards that says "actually we don't really mean it"? No. I really can't fathom why you would support this sort of behaviour. Anti-prohpet-insulters are perfectly free to oppose prophet insulting without resorting to threats to kill. I express my opinion all the time - I oppose people's view all the time, but I'm not in a habit of opposing people's views by saying "I want you dead because you hold an opinion that is different to mine". I think we could do without that unnecessary sort of "freedom of speech" don't you think?

freediver wrote on Jun 19^th, 2013 at 12:22pm:

Also, I still haven't gotten anything resembling a straight answer from you on the issue of where you would draw the line.

OK - rather than continuing with your childish games, why don't you go over my last answer to this and explain to me how its not "straight"? I must have answered this about 3 or 4 times already, and as far as I remember they were pretty straight.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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greggerypeccary Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 141823 Gender:	Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you Reply #140 - Jun 19^th, 2013 at 4:35pm Lord Herbert wrote on Jun 9^th, 2013 at 4:27pm: No one has a right to disturb the public peace by using a bullhorn. Agreed. Including spruikers:
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freediver

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #141 - Jun 19^th, 2013 at 6:52pm

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Absolutely yes, they intended the placard to incite violence: they want violence meted out to people who insult the prophet, to stop them as well as intimidate others who might be considering insulting the prophet. If you come to the party making a threat, the default position has to be that you mean it - otherwise why would you be making it? Is there any disclaimer on the placards that says "actually we don't really mean it"? No. I really can't fathom why you would support this sort of behaviour.

I support freedom of speech. If someone believes that we should have the death penalty for blasphemy, there is not point trying to silence them.

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Anti-prohpet-insulters are perfectly free to oppose prophet insulting without resorting to threats to kill.

You have no way of knowing whether it was a threat to kill or a call for legal change. The context does not tell you anything about that either. It is all down to your interpretation of the placard. It is not right to ban something based on your interpretation of the true meaning.

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I express my opinion all the time - I oppose people's view all the time, but I'm not in a habit of opposing people's views by saying "I want you dead because you hold an opinion that is different to mine".

That's probably because you don't want them dead. But what if you did? Should we be forbidden from discussing the death penalty except for those crime to which it already applies?

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OK - rather than continuing with your childish games, why don't you go over my last answer to this and explain to me how its not "straight"?

It is an answer to a different question. I still have no idea how far you would go. You have thrown around some very vague claims about making intimidation, vilification etc illegal. They deserve clarification, and the discussion of the placard does not really have much to do with where you would draw the line.

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Soren

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #142 - Jun 19^th, 2013 at 7:01pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Jun 19^th, 2013 at 4:35pm:

Lord Herbert wrote on Jun 9^th, 2013 at 4:27pm:

No one has a right to disturb the public peace by using a bullhorn.

Agreed.

Including spruikers:

http://www.jojosagency.com.au/photos-2006/brian-hi-spruik.jpg

http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2006/11/12/knSPRUIKER_wideweb__470x306,0.jpg

Is that really your mind revealed, is that what you really think - shop spruikers are indistinguishable from the people who are discussed on this thread?

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49841 At my desk.	Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you Reply #143 - Jun 19^th, 2013 at 7:04pm He is not saying they are the same Soren.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #144 - Jun 19^th, 2013 at 9:46pm

freediver wrote on Jun 19^th, 2013 at 6:52pm:

I support freedom of speech. If someone believes that we should have the death penalty for blasphemy, there is not point trying to silence them.

Thats not what we're talking about. If it was merely for pushing the case for capital punishment, there would be no debate. But surely even you would agree that when someone makes a statement like "kill those people for [insert offensive behaviour]" - it is not always going to be a rational call to bring back capital punishment agreed? It is possible that such a call could be a call for illegal murder no?

The question is, do you still support the latter? I certainly don't, and I don't think any sane person would.

freediver wrote on Jun 19^th, 2013 at 6:52pm:

You have no way of knowing whether it was a threat to kill or a call for legal change.

Neither do you - my point is that I think the former should be illegal. Don't you? I'm not really sure what your position is - but you seem to be going to great pains to stress that any threat to kill should be allowed - on the off chance that it is a rational call for legal change. Personally I think common sense should dictate when a statement should be deemed as a threat to murder compared to a rational call for legal change - like for example in the midst of a violent riot.

freediver wrote on Jun 19^th, 2013 at 6:52pm:

That's probably because you don't want them dead. But what if you did?

You seriously don't see a problem if I looked into someone's eye and said to them "I want you dead" - in a way that causes that person to fear for his/her life?

freediver wrote on Jun 19^th, 2013 at 6:52pm:

It is an answer to a different question. I still have no idea how far you would go. You have thrown around some very vague claims about making intimidation, vilification etc illegal. They deserve clarification, and the discussion of the placard does not really have much to do with where you would draw the line.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 7^th, 2013 at 5:28pm:

The line I would draw is between protecting the right to speech and protecting the right not to be vilified or threatened with physical violence.

Thats the best I can do without going in to a specific example - like the placard example. And the borderline there would be (IMO), between saying "offending the prophet should not be allowed" (acceptable) and "kill/physically hurt anyone who offends the prophet" (unacceptable).

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Soren

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #145 - Jun 19^th, 2013 at 10:21pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 19^th, 2013 at 9:46pm:

Thats the best I can do without going in to a specific example - like the placard example. And the borderline there would be (IMO), between saying "offending the prophet should not be allowed" (acceptable) and "kill/physically hurt anyone who offends the prophet" (unacceptable).

And so you also accept the right of others to hold placards/cartoon/books/views publicly offending the prophet as long as they do not threaten to physically hurt or kill anyone.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you Reply #146 - Jun 19^th, 2013 at 10:37pm Soren wrote on Jun 19^th, 2013 at 10:21pm: And so you also accept the right of others to hold placards/cartoon/books/views publicly offending the prophet as long as they do not threaten to physically hurt or kill anyone. Of course.
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Soren

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #147 - Jun 19^th, 2013 at 10:39pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 19^th, 2013 at 10:37pm:

Soren wrote on Jun 19^th, 2013 at 10:21pm:

And so you also accept the right of others to hold placards/cartoon/books/views publicly offending the prophet as long as they do not threaten to physically hurt or kill anyone.

Of course.

Great. We can all go home now.

The whole push by the Organisation of Islamic Countries to outlaw the ridiculing of religion has been a massive misunderstanding and all the rioting due to films, cartoons, books laffing at Mohammed were staged by Mossad and financed by the CIA.

Praise the Lord!!!

.

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Karnal

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #148 - Jun 19^th, 2013 at 10:55pm

Soren wrote on Jun 19^th, 2013 at 10:39pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 19^th, 2013 at 10:37pm:

Soren wrote on Jun 19^th, 2013 at 10:21pm:

And so you also accept the right of others to hold placards/cartoon/books/views publicly offending the prophet as long as they do not threaten to physically hurt or kill anyone.

Of course.

Great. We can all go home now.

.

Nothing to see here, old boy.

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freediver

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #149 - Jun 21^st, 2013 at 8:34am

Quote:

The line I would draw is between protecting the right to speech and protecting the right not to be vilified or threatened with physical violence.

Thats the best I can do without going in to a specific example - like the placard example. And the borderline there would be (IMO), between saying "offending the prophet should not be allowed" (acceptable) and "kill/physically hurt anyone who offends the prophet" (unacceptable).

Gandalf, you are going round in circles. I already responded to this. It is vague to the point of absurdity. It says nothing at all about where you would draw the line. Where it does come close it contradicts what you say elsewhere.

Quote:

Thats not what we're talking about. If it was merely for pushing the case for capital punishment, there would be no debate. But surely even you would agree that when someone makes a statement like "kill those people for [insert offensive behaviour]" - it is not always going to be a rational call to bring back capital punishment agreed?

Sometimes it will be rational. Sometimes it will be irrational. But you are missing the point. You can not tell the difference, and rationality is not a sound basis for making something illegal.

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It is possible that such a call could be a call for illegal murder no?

Sure, just like reading from the Koran could be a call for murder.

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The question is, do you still support the latter? I certainly don't, and I don't think any sane person would.

I thought we were discussing whether it should be banned, not whether I agree with it. You know my opinion on these things already. That does not mean I want to deny my opponents their freedom of speech in case what they say has a hidden meaning.

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Neither do you - my point is that I think the former should be illegal. Don't you?

I suspect it already is.

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I'm not really sure what your position is - but you seem to be going to great pains to stress that any threat to kill should be allowed - on the off chance that it is a rational call for legal change.

No Gandalf. You really should stick to what I actually say. It has to be an actual threat, not an implied one.

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Personally I think common sense should dictate when a statement should be deemed as a threat to murder compared to a rational call for legal change - like for example in the midst of a violent riot.

You are judging the intention of the person who created the placard based on events that happened after they created it and over which they had no control. Unless you are suggesting some kind of conspiracy to orchestrate the violence, then you have no case, and even if you are you still have no case. They did not create the placard in the context of a violent riot. They created it calmly and rationally at home. That is the true context in which to interpret the "real meaning" of what is written on the placard.

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