Australian Politics Forum - the threats posed by Islam

freediver

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Re: the threats posed by Islam
Reply #90 - May 24^th, 2013 at 10:08pm

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So here I am trying to pin you down on what *AUSTRALIAN* muslims have done to deserve your suspicion

Oh Sorry Gandalf. I didn't realise there was another Muslim sect here.

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and you answer by citing things that mostly happened outside Australia

Yes. From the opening post I have insisted that this is part of a global effort and that the external threats are significant. It would be a pretty dire situation if Australia was an Island of freedom in a sea of Shariah inspired law.

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The sum total of negative behaviour by Australian muslims is a single and tiny incident, which was immediately condemned by the muslim community.

Again you change the subject. This is not about "negative behaviour". It is about freedom of speech.

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Again, how many people have been killed as a result of *AUSTRALIAN* muslim rioting and carrying on? I'll give you a hint - its less than one.

Actually there was a few, but it was a while back. And it does not make it hurt any less if you get killed by a foreign Muslim. Your freedoms are no less denied if they are denied by foreigners. Australian Muslims have attempted mass slaughter of Australian citizens within Australia and many of them are rotting in jail right now. The success of our law enforcement does not diminish the extent of the threat. The fact is, Australians self censor every single day regarding Islam in a way they would not do for any other religion, because it would not even occur to them to do so.

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So in light of this, do you think its fair to distinguish between what extremists around the world do and what Australian muslims do?

Let's say I am open minded about the issue. I would be interested to hear how Australian Muslims are fundamentally different from the rest of the world.

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Are you unable to comprehend your own rants? Now go back and answer my question please - where did the Australian media self censor in response to the protests of Sydney 2012 as you just claimed? Or if you are unable to do so, I'll be happy for you to concede the point - and concede that you, once again, just blatantly made sh!t up specifically in order to defame muslims.

I have already apologised for the confusion and clarified the self censorship in response to the cartoons and the video. If you really want me to look into self censorship regarding the video I will, but you pretty much made the point for me with the cartoon example. Unless of course you are now arguing that Australian Muslims are not only fundamentally different from Muslims throughout the rest of the world, they are also fundamentally different from Australian Muslims in 2006.

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What sort of idiotic statement is that?? Newspapers refuse to publish stuff all the freaking time - very often because they might be deemed offensive to religious people.

Can you cite an Australian example of a newsworthy issue they self censored on that is not related to Islam?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: the threats posed by Islam
Reply #91 - May 25^th, 2013 at 12:10am

freediver wrote on May 24^th, 2013 at 10:08pm:

I have already apologised for the confusion and clarified the self censorship in response to the cartoons and the video. If you really want me to look into self censorship regarding the video I will, but you pretty much made the point for me with the cartoon example.

Made what point? That was just you making yet another completely baseless assumption that the non-publishing of the cartoons was due to intimidation and a perceived threat of violence.

Besides, some Australian media did publish the cartoons.

freediver wrote on May 24^th, 2013 at 10:08pm:

Can you cite an Australian example of a newsworthy issue they self censored on that is not related to Islam?

I think anyone who is familiar with the media landscape in most of the western world knows all too well the self censorship that goes on in regards to tip-toeing around jews. And to a lesser extent towards christians.

And fair enough too - we all know what happens when the western world gets worked up about the jews. Its about being responsible - and a sensible and responsible media will be all too aware of the potential for stirring up bigotry and discrimination against minorities - such as jews or muslims.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Soren

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Re: the threats posed by Islam
Reply #92 - May 25^th, 2013 at 10:21am

polite_gandalf wrote on May 25^th, 2013 at 12:10am:

And fair enough too - we all know what happens when the western world gets worked up about the jews. Its about being responsible - and a sensible and responsible media will be all too aware of the potential for stirring up bigotry and discrimination against minorities - such as jews or muslims.

Muslims are trying to assume the jews' mantle of victimhood but it doesn't work.

No Jews have ever staged week-long car-b-ques, public beheadings of critics, violent demonstrations calling for the murder of anyone disrespecting Moses.

You are no victims, Gandy.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: the threats posed by Islam Reply #93 - May 25^th, 2013 at 10:41am whatever Soren - it has naught to do with the point I was making. Maybe one of these days you'll compose a reply that has some semblance to what I am talking about.
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freediver

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Re: the threats posed by Islam
Reply #94 - May 25^th, 2013 at 12:42pm

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Made what point? That was just you making yet another completely baseless assumption that the non-publishing of the cartoons was due to intimidation and a perceived threat of violence.

You are yet to offer an alternative explanation.

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Besides, some Australian media did publish the cartoons.

Good. But that does not mean there was no self censorship.

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I think anyone who is familiar with the media landscape in most of the western world knows all too well the self censorship that goes on in regards to tip-toeing around jews. And to a lesser extent towards christians.

Can you give some examples? There has actually been a fair bit of coverage of Jews and Israel lately in The Australian. I agree that many people are in general hesitant to make fun of or criticise the Jews personally, however this is out of a sense of guilt over the holocaust, not out of intimidation or hypersensitivity on the part of Jews. I would hardly consider that undermining freedom of speech. However mainstream TV does still openly mock Jews. Seinfeld is a good example. It was one of the most popular comedies ever. The big bang theory does it well too. Elements of the left are also very critical of Israel and Zionism.

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And fair enough too - we all know what happens when the western world gets worked up about the jews. Its about being responsible - and a sensible and responsible media will be all too aware of the potential for stirring up bigotry and discrimination against minorities - such as jews or muslims.

That doesn't make sense. Publishing images or cartoons of Muhammed is not going to make people beat up Muslims. Covering the riots, terrorism etc will. The media covers the riots and terrorism completely. What they refrain from doing is publishing things will will make Muslims angry, like the Muhammed cartoons. The reason of course is that the threat of violent retribution is very real. Muslims kill journalists, authors, directors etc. That makes them nervous.

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whatever Soren - it has naught to do with the point I was making.

Yes it does. The Muslims are trying to destroy freedom of speech. The Jews are not. The Jews are some of the biggest defenders of it.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: the threats posed by Islam
Reply #95 - May 25^th, 2013 at 1:04pm

freediver wrote on May 25^th, 2013 at 12:42pm:

You are yet to offer an alternative explanation.

Of course I did - because the media prefer to be considerate and responsible rather than inciters to violence. Besides I didn't have to show you any alternatives - it doesn't change the fact that your claim is still baseless.

freediver wrote on May 25^th, 2013 at 12:42pm:

Can you give some examples?

holocaust denial. Contemptible yes - but is very much absent from any coverage in the media.

freediver wrote on May 25^th, 2013 at 12:42pm:

However mainstream TV does still openly mock Jews.

Following very strict PC rules maybe. But you obviously won't see any caricatures of jews like what was common earlier last century.

freediver wrote on May 25^th, 2013 at 12:42pm:

That doesn't make sense. Publishing images or cartoons of Muhammed is not going to make people beat up Muslims.

You're being incredibly disingenuous FD. No they will not "cause" people to beat up muslims directly, but it will add to a wave of vilification. The protestor at the 2006 rally I quoted earlier summed it up beautifully - depicting Muhammad with a bomb in his turban is not a very subtle way of saying all muslims are terrorists. The cartoon makers didn't make the cartoons as a way of saying "now lets have a constructive dialogue about this..." it was specifically to be pricks and stir sh!t up. As I have said elsewhere, the publishing of the cartoons was a very deliberate creation of a self-fulfilling prophesy.

freediver wrote on May 25^th, 2013 at 12:42pm:

Yes it does. The Muslims are trying to destroy freedom of speech. The Jews are not. The Jews are some of the biggest defenders of it.

You're obviously not familiar with the Australian Labor Party then.

When was the last time any Australian government has said anything at all against the illegal activities of the Israeli government?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: the threats posed by Islam
Reply #96 - May 25^th, 2013 at 1:20pm

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Of course I did - because the media prefer to be considerate and responsible rather than inciters to violence. Besides I didn't have to show you any alternatives - it doesn't change the fact that your claim is still baseless.

I see. So you agree with me about what is going on, but see nothing wrong with the media having to self censor because the inevitable result is violence from Muslims?

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holocaust denial. Contemptible yes - but is very much absent from any coverage in the media.

Actually it does get covered occasionally, just like other absurd ideas like moon landing denial. But a newspaper is not going to come out and claim the holocaust did not happen because that is not true. There have been a few articles in the Australian this week about holocaust denial. I think one made the front page.

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Following very strict PC rules maybe. But you obviously won't see any caricatures of jews like what was common earlier last century.

Little of the comedy from that era is still considered funny. That is not the same thing as undermining freedom of speech.

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You're being incredibly disingenuous FD. No they will not "cause" people to beat up muslims directly, but it will add to a wave of vilification.

No it won't. Terrorism and violent riots by Muslims is what causes people to vilify Muslims. Mocking Muhammed is not.

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The protestor at the 2006 rally I quoted earlier summed it up beautifully - depicting Muhammad with a bomb in his turban is not a very subtle way of saying all muslims are terrorists.

Yes it is. I will demonstrate an unsubtle way for you: all muslims are terrorists. Can you see the difference?

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The cartoon makers didn't make the cartoons as a way of saying "now lets have a constructive dialogue about this..." it was specifically to be pricks and stir sh!t up.

And why does it stir poo up - because Muslims are fundamentally and often violently opposed to freedom of speech. However this is not a good enough reason to abandon freedom of speech. Standing up for freedom of speech in this context does not make you a prick.

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As I have said elsewhere, the publishing of the cartoons was a very deliberate creation of a self-fulfilling prophesy.

So violence by Muslims is inevitable if we are to have freedom of speech?

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When was the last time any Australian government has said anything at all against the illegal activities of the Israeli government?

I think the most recent incident was when they falsified Australian passports to assassinate someone. Our government has been accused of leaking the name of a Mossad spy in retribution. This was on the front page of today's Weekend Australian. There was also an article on the BDS campaign against Israel, which the coalition have weighed in on. Not agreeing with you is not the same thing as attacking freedom of speech. What a political party chooses to comment on is hardly a good measure of freedom of speech.

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Brian Ross

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Re: the threats posed by Islam
Reply #97 - May 25^th, 2013 at 1:34pm

Soren wrote on May 25^th, 2013 at 10:21am:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 25^th, 2013 at 12:10am:

And fair enough too - we all know what happens when the western world gets worked up about the jews. Its about being responsible - and a sensible and responsible media will be all too aware of the potential for stirring up bigotry and discrimination against minorities - such as jews or muslims.

Muslims are trying to assume the jews' mantle of victimhood but it doesn't work.

No Jews have ever staged week-long car-b-ques, public beheadings of critics, violent demonstrations calling for the murder of anyone disrespecting Moses.

Haven't been following the news much from the Occupied Territories for the last 20 years have you Soren? Roll Eyes

Jews regularly shoot Muslims. Jews regularly destroy Muslim property. Jews regularly steal Muslim land and water. Jews regularly deny services to Muslims because of their religion. Jews regularly harass Muslim children. Jews regularly blow up Muslims. Roll Eyes

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You are no victims, Gandy.

Gandalf doesn't allow you to victimise him, Soren. Roll Eyes

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It seems that I have upset a Moderator and are forbidden from using memes. So much for Freedom of Speech. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Brian Ross

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Re: the threats posed by Islam
Reply #98 - May 25^th, 2013 at 1:36pm

|dev|null wrote on May 24^th, 2013 at 3:42pm:

freediver wrote on May 24^th, 2013 at 11:33am:

Sorry about the confusion. Earlier we were discussing also the cartoon protests. You presented an article where Muslims thanked the Australian media for not publishing the photos. At the time a least 45 people had been killed by Muslims around the world in response to the cartoons.

You also presented a text message that did the rounds within the Islamic community (and was later published in the paper) that suggested the proposed Melbourne protests following the youtube video were not cancelled out of support or even respect or tolerance for freedom of speech, but in favour of more "calculated" moves. You did your best to avoid discussing that, merely insisting that my interpretation of it was absurd.

The Danish newspaper set out to deliberately offend and then acted the "victim" when some Muslims reacted accordingly. They were of course helped by the extremist Imams which set out to be offended and then deliberately reprinted and distributed the cartoons to make sure that loads of their more ignorant fellow Muslims would also be offended.

Of course that in turn allowed the critics of Islam to be suitably offended and they were and provided them with more ammunition to attack Muslims, which is what the Muslim extremists wanted in the first place, to drive more Muslims into their tent.

Everybody has played their role very well. No Oscar winning performances but it was done well enough to provide many with suitable employment. You, of course being one Freediver. I wonder who'd you be hating if there were no Muslims for you to attack? Grin

Good observation. People who want to be outrage are well catered for on both sides of the issue. Invariably they lack any semblance of balance in their outlook on it. FD, Soren, Baronvert, Yadda, Moses are all good examples from the anti-Muslim side. Roll Eyes

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It seems that I have upset a Moderator and are forbidden from using memes. So much for Freedom of Speech. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Soren

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Re: the threats posed by Islam
Reply #99 - May 25^th, 2013 at 6:27pm

Brian Ross wrote on May 25^th, 2013 at 1:34pm:

Soren wrote on May 25^th, 2013 at 10:21am:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 25^th, 2013 at 12:10am:

And fair enough too - we all know what happens when the western world gets worked up about the jews. Its about being responsible - and a sensible and responsible media will be all too aware of the potential for stirring up bigotry and discrimination against minorities - such as jews or muslims.

Muslims are trying to assume the jews' mantle of victimhood but it doesn't work.

No Jews have ever staged week-long car-b-ques, public beheadings of critics, violent demonstrations calling for the murder of anyone disrespecting Moses.

Haven't been following the news much from the Occupied Territories for the last 20 years have you Soren? Roll Eyes

Jews regularly shoot Muslims. Jews regularly destroy Muslim property. Jews regularly steal Muslim land and water. Jews regularly deny services to Muslims because of their religion. Jews regularly harass Muslim children. Jews regularly blow up Muslims. Roll Eyes

Oh, I see. Joos are not allowed to defend temselves. They should go meekly as always up until the foundation of Israel.
The Arabs could have had peace but they chose, because of Islam, to try to destroy the Joos.

Look at the map after first and second world wars. How many people were displaced, how many new countries were created, how many old countries have disappeared.

It is only the Arabs who can't digest the existence of one tiny country because it is Jewish. Half of the middle east is successor states to the Ottoman Empire. But that's OK because they remained 'Muslim Lands'. That's the rub.

That goddam jihadi in London was ranting about 'our' Muslim lands, countries he has never been as a London born Nigerian nice person. But Afghanistan is 'our' land to him and so is Iraq and all the rest. Does he live in his Muslims lands, he so evidently pining for? Hell no. That would require him to put up with all the sharia shite.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: the threats posed by Islam
Reply #100 - May 25^th, 2013 at 7:11pm

freediver wrote on May 25^th, 2013 at 1:20pm:

I see. So you agree with me about what is going on, but see nothing wrong with the media having to self censor because the inevitable result is violence from Muslims?

No you misunderstand. IMO the 'self censoring' is not done because of fear of muslim violence, but fear of stoking the flames against muslims by white non-muslim extremists. As I said, its a responsible course of action to protect a vulnerable minority.

freediver wrote on May 25^th, 2013 at 1:20pm:

Little of the comedy from that era is still considered funny. That is not the same thing as undermining freedom of speech.

Does anyone consider the Muhammad cartoons funny? Its not about being funny, or having any purpose at all - except as an "up yours" to opponents of free speech - remember? So why can't people make the same point with unfunny, pointless offensive depictions of jews? I'd be genuinely interested to hear the answer to that.

freediver wrote on May 25^th, 2013 at 1:20pm:

Yes it is. I will demonstrate an unsubtle way for you: all muslims are terrorists. Can you see the difference?

No I can't actually. What is it?

freediver wrote on May 25^th, 2013 at 1:20pm:

So violence by Muslims is inevitable if we are to have freedom of speech?

If you call that an appropriate level of freedom of speech, then yeah I guess it does.

But think for a moment what freedom of speech in our society actually means. In Australia, and many other western countries, the notion is a bit of a furphy - as you are not free at all to say or express yourself however you like - and we as a society have very little problem with this. Thus we have hate-speech laws, anti-defamation laws etc. We, as a society understand very well that there is a very big difference between acceptable freedom of expression and unacceptable acts of incitement and defamation. And incidentally, I think in the case of the cartoons and video, our society would have rallied in condemning their publication - if a minority of extremist muslims hadn't acted the way they did - somewhat forcing the west's hand to go into defensive mode. In any case, most westerners believed the publishing of the cartoons were unnecessary and irresponsible.

freediver wrote on May 25^th, 2013 at 1:20pm:

I think the most recent incident was when they falsified Australian passports to assassinate someone. Our government has been accused of leaking the name of a Mossad spy in retribution. This was on the front page of today's Weekend Australian. There was also an article on the BDS campaign against Israel, which the coalition have weighed in on. Not agreeing with you is not the same thing as attacking freedom of speech. What a political party chooses to comment on is hardly a good measure of freedom of speech.

Israel gets a free pass by both major parties. For the coalition its consistent with their ideology, but the way the labor party acts is unforgivable for a supposedly thriving democracy. Its well known that the most powerful jewish lobby group in Australia is a major supporter of labor - and its no secret that the deal is, don't criticise Israel. Sitting labor MPs are gagged into never saying anything against Israel. It has reached such absurd lengths in recent years when you actually had liberal MPs wanting to raise a debate on Israel, and being shut down by labor.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Soren

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Re: the threats posed by Islam
Reply #101 - May 25^th, 2013 at 8:40pm

Israel is a member country of the UN. It is defending itself. If the Arabs could think past the Koran they would than Allah to have the Jews have come back to the Middle East. Israel is the Arabs' best chance to catch up with the world. But what do they do? They are cutting of their own noses to spite themselves, to coin a phrase.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: the threats posed by Islam
Reply #102 - May 25^th, 2013 at 8:51pm

Soren, Israel is conducting activity that is illegal under international law. No country in the world except the US, Australia and the Marshall Islands even pretends to dispute this.

And no, expanding housing lots further into Palestinian territory, destroying olive plantations for bypass roads and denying the Palestinians a fair share of the precious water resources - has nothing to do with "defending itself".

And anyone who is familiar with the issue knows that you can never raise these grievances without being branded an anti-semite and/or terrorist supporter.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: the threats posed by Islam
Reply #103 - May 25^th, 2013 at 9:27pm

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No you misunderstand. IMO the 'self censoring' is not done because of fear of muslim violence, but fear of stoking the flames against muslims by white non-muslim extremists. As I said, its a responsible course of action to protect a vulnerable minority.

Self censorship is a reasonable course of action?

You keep avoiding the issue of what they self censor on. Why is that? Publishing the Muhammed cartoons would not stoke the "anti Muslim flames". Covering riots and terrorism would. They cover the latter, not the former. The issues they self censor on are the ones that would lead to violence from Muslims. I have pointed this out to you several times.

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Does anyone consider the Muhammad cartoons funny?

No. But Seinfeld is funny. Or at least it was.

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So why can't people make the same point with unfunny, pointless offensive depictions of jews? I'd be genuinely interested to hear the answer to that.

They can. They probably do all the time. I have seen it right here on this forum. The only reason you even heard about the Muhammed cartoons was because of the 200 people who were murdered by muslims in retaliation. If Jews reacted the same way whenever people mocked them, it would be all over the news too.

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If you call that an appropriate level of freedom of speech, then yeah I guess it does.

Can you explain your concept of "levels" of freedom of speech? You also claimed earlier that the majority of Australian Muslims support freedom of speech "in principle" but refused to elaborate on what that means "in practice".

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Thus we have hate-speech laws, anti-defamation laws etc

Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from the just consequences. If you deliberately harm someone's business by lying you should be liable for the damage you cause to them. This is not the same thing as chopping someone's head of for mocking a guy who died 1400 years ago.

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We, as a society understand very well that there is a very big difference between acceptable freedom of expression and unacceptable acts of incitement and defamation.

We as a society also understand that mocking Islam and mocking Muhammed is absolutely protected by freedom of speech and any attempt to undermine this must be opposed. There is no grey area. There are no conflicting freedoms and rights. You do not have the right not to be offended.

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And incidentally, I think in the case of the cartoons and video, our society would have rallied in condemning their publication - if a minority of extremist muslims hadn't acted the way they did - somewhat forcing the west's hand to go into defensive mode.

You have no clue. You are just as deluded about our society as Abu. Our society mocks religions and ideologies all the time. No-one condemns it. What we condemn is the barbaric response from Muslims around the world - including those in Sydney.

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Israel gets a free pass by both major parties. For the coalition its consistent with their ideology, but the way the labor party acts is unforgivable for a supposedly thriving democracy.

Again, disagreeing with you does not mean they are not free to agree with you. It has zero implications for freedom of speech. You are free to rail all you want against Israel.

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Its well known that the most powerful jewish lobby group in Australia is a major supporter of labor - and its no secret that the deal is, don't criticise Israel.

And yet you are free to openly criticise Labor for this. You could even make some cartoons about it. Is any of this sinking in?

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Sitting labor MPs are gagged into never saying anything against Israel.

Who is gagging them? Politicians are very careful with their words. They usually tow the party line. That does not mean they are not free to say whatever they want. You seem to be equating freedom of speech with saying whatever it is you want them to say, with a strange focus on politicians in particular.

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And anyone who is familiar with the issue knows that you can never raise these grievances without being branded an anti-semite and/or terrorist supporter.

Again, not a violation of freedom of speech. It is a demonstration of it. You both get to have your say. Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences for the stupid things you say. If you say something stupid, people will point out your stupidity. The more I talk to you about this concept, the more I realise you have no idea what freedom of speech means.

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Soren

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Re: the threats posed by Islam
Reply #104 - May 25^th, 2013 at 9:41pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 25^th, 2013 at 8:51pm:

Soren, Israel is conducting activity that is illegal under international law. No country in the world except the US, Australia and the Marshall Islands even pretends to dispute this.

And no, expanding housing lots further into Palestinian territory, destroying olive plantations for bypass roads and denying the Palestinians a fair share of the precious water resources - has nothing to do with "defending itself".

And anyone who is familiar with the issue knows that you can never raise these grievances without being branded an anti-semite and/or terrorist supporter.

What is 'Palestinian territory'?

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