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would you follow a murderer ? (Read 16405 times)

Chard

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Re: would you follow a murderer ?
Reply #60 - May 20^th, 2013 at 12:47am

Brian Ross wrote on May 19^th, 2013 at 8:05pm:

And his unwillingness to obey the orders of his superiors? His unilateral and unauthorised overflights of the fUSSR were dangerously reckless and provocative.

Oh, please, name what orders given by whom he supposedly disobeyed. Also, flights unauthorized by who? From 1948 to 1957 he was commander of Strategic Air Comand, from 1957 to 1961 he was Vice CHief of Staff of the US Air Force, and from 1961 to his retirement in 1965, which means their were only two to three people above him in the chain of command. You simple do not rise to the rank of General (O-10) with a track record of unreliability and a history of disobeying orders.

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He wanted a nuclear war, which would have resulted in the destruction of both the fUSSR and the USA and a large part of the rest of the world.

Bullshit. The man advocated preemtive war only, and I stress this again, ONLY if there was confirmation that the USSR was planning to attack the US.

Also, at the time, the Russians simply didn't have the ability to hold up their end of a MAD doctrine. They didn't achieve parity with us in nuclear weapons and delivery systems until the late-1970s.

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Eisenhower warned of such dangers in his “military-industrial complex” speech. Macarthur was another who could not adopt to the strategic realities of “limited war”. His egomania was why he was sacked. Of the two, Eisenhower was a much smarter man IMHO and one of the American Presidents I actually admire the most.

Both MacAurthur and Eisenhower were straight up adepts of unrestricted warfare. One was a showboating psychopath, the other a cold and calculating sociopath, and both were perhaps the finest military minds in the history of warfare leading one half of the largest conflict in human history. They both recognized they had in Lemay a man that would stop at nothing to defeat the enemy and they willingly unleashed him knowing full well the man was the most brutal General in the history of air combat.

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For a man who you claim “hated war” he was more than willing to provoke it. Roll Eyes

Just because you hate something doesn't mean you can't be really good at that thing. The only thing he hated more than war was the idea of someone threatening his country and at the time the Russians were being a pack of rabidly beligerant c*nts themselves.

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Yet, as I've pointed out, such a view has failed when it has been applied. Whether it was the German strategic air war in 1916-18 or 1940, or the Allied effort throughout WWII, the will of those attacked remained resolute and unbroken. QED.

Which is why Japan and Germany both lost. Because the allies failed to break their will and capability to continue fighting... Right. Roll Eyes

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smacking ten-k limit...

Actually it's 5500 characters, but still. What the f*ck, over?

Deterrence is the art of producing in the mind of the enemy... the FEAR to attack.

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Chard

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Re: would you follow a murderer ?
Reply #61 - May 20^th, 2013 at 12:56am

Brian Ross wrote on May 19^th, 2013 at 8:04pm:

The first rule of spookdom is not to advertise you work in spookdom.

I've known spooks and those that boast of it invariably are at the lowest end of the pecking order whom need to boost their ego by boasting about it.

Where have I boasted about being a spook? You asked what part of the US government I worked for. Also, not sure how many espianoge thrillers you've read, but "spooks" referes to people working for an Operations directorate. I'm an analyst, not a spy or a spook or an operator or any kind. I work in an office at a desk with the occasional field trips to go watch missiles tests.

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Further, those that boast the most about "blowing things up and killing people" are those have the least experience of it. It's rather like the US soldiers and their juvenile views on the "Warrior ethos". It's just so much wankery to inflate their egos. Real soldiers don't prattle about such things. Roll Eyes

[/quote[

Again, where the f*ck are you getting this boasting nonsense from? If you're going for some sort of ad hominem horseshit could you at least base it off of things I've actually said and not sh*t you made up?

[quote]Me, I always prefer to speak about logistics. As the old saying goes, "amateurs talk about strategy, professionals talk about logistics..." Simply "blowing stuff up and killing people" doesn't win wars, logistics do. Trying to break your enemy's will, invariably fails as I've already mentioned, however having sufficient logistics on-site, on-time, with the manpower to utilise it will ensure that you can defeat them.

Logistics provides the tools that enable the primary objectives of killing people and breaking poo. If you disrupt your enemies logistics you disrupt his ability to fight effectively or to fight at all.

Deterrence is the art of producing in the mind of the enemy... the FEAR to attack.

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Chard

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Re: would you follow a murderer ?
Reply #62 - May 20^th, 2013 at 1:31am

Brian Ross wrote on May 19^th, 2013 at 8:04pm:

Chard wrote on May 19^th, 2013 at 2:39pm:

Quote:

ToT is a poor man's use of his artillery.

Do you even know what ToT is or how it works?

Yes, I've seen it done by eye with a 81mm mortar, have you ever even seen it?

I didn't ask if you've seen it, I asked if you know what a time-on-target artillery strike is. And yes, I've seen it, seen it from multiple weapon systems, and seen it from both outgoing fire at the gun battery and down range effects at the impact site.

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Funny, thats not what Arthur “Butch” Harris wrote. As a disciple of Hugh Trenchard and Giulio Douhet, he always maintained it's ultimate purpose was to “break the will of the enemy”. IIRC that was what Jimmy Dolittle and Curtis Lemay also maintained.

That was also one of the purposes. Still remains that athe Allied strategic bombing campaign over Europe broke Speer's Miracle and produced a huge virtual attrition effect by forcing the Germans to divert dozens of divisions and tens of thousands of 88mm guns and tens of millions of 88mm shells away from the Eastern Front to Western Europe for air defenses.

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Yet, German production actually increased substantially in 1944, reaching it's peak in the end of that year, when the Strategic Bombing campaign had obviously failed to achieve it's objective.

Peak production that couldn't keep pace with loses. Seriously, I thought you said you studied logistics, guy.

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It wasn't until targets were switched away from industrial targets to fuel supplies and transport systems, that industrial production started to decrease and as I pointed it, even then it wasn't until the Russians raised their flag on the Reichstag, was Germany forced to surrender.

Wasn't even the Russians taking Berlin. It was Hitler finally offing himself that removed the only obstacle to a German surrender. Then again, by that point it wouldn't have mattered if Germany had surrendered before the Red Army marched into Berlin. The Red Army was out for blood at that point, so were we, and it was a race between Zukov and Patton to see who'd get to teabag Hitler's body first.

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No, some sections, outside of the government were. The Imperial Army had no interest in peace and was preparing all out by the end of 1944 for the invasion of the home islands.

At the time Hirohito was the official head of government with full authority to override Tojo and the general staff for the IJN and IJA. The surrender agreement changed that to the Empror being a figurehead in the same vien as most European monarchs. Even then, I'd hardly consider Prime Minister Kuniaki Koiso t have been "outside of the government".

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Even at the last moment, the militarist fanatics attempted to stop the transmission of the Emperor's order to surrender, to “bear the unbearable” by staging a putsch that failed. The Imperial Japanese Army had fully sussed out the plans for Operation Olympic and had made the invasion beaches death traps. They wanted a “final battle”, to make it (in their minds) too costly for the Allies to demand unconditional peace.

Hence why we dropped two atomic bombs on them and threatened to keep dropping them until Japan surrendered or there weren't any Japanese people anymore. To be fair we also did it to the world know the days of total war were now over.

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It is you who should acquaint yourself with the history of the final days of the day in the Pacific.

I take it back, you seem to actually know your history. Congrats, I think you're the first person on this board I've ever said that to.

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SIGH, Tojo wasn't even Prime Minister in August 1945. He had been forced to resign nearly a year earlier. Roll Eyes

He still continued to hold a lot of influence with Koiso and the IJA General Staff to the point a very high degree up until the Surrender was signed and MacAurthur ordered his arrest.

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von Clausewitz and Sun Tzu suggested that there was a much greater purpose to war than merely “blowing stuff up and killing people”. “War is but politics by another means,” von Clausewitz. “And therefore the general who in advancing does not seek personal fame, and in withdrawing is not concerned with avoiding punishment, but whose only purpose is to protect the people and promote the best interests of his sovereign, is the precious jewel of the state...” Sun Tzu

Christ on a smacking crutch... Killing people and breaking sh*t is how wars are ultimately won, not why wars are fought. Or are you suggesting that von Clauswitz was somehow able to fight actual shooting wars without ever having to kill enemy troops?

Quote:

And murder is a morally defensible act?

Depends on the circumstances.

« Last Edit: May 20^th, 2013 at 1:40am by Chard »

Deterrence is the art of producing in the mind of the enemy... the FEAR to attack.

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Chard

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Re: would you follow a murderer ?
Reply #63 - May 20^th, 2013 at 1:39am

Brian Ross wrote on May 19^th, 2013 at 8:07pm:

Chard wrote on May 19^th, 2013 at 2:42pm:

Quote:

I've always felt the problem with US attitudes towards war is that they've never been invaded nor had war carried on into their cities from afar. They fail to understand the consequences of modern war, unlike those who have experienced it or been willing to learn from that experience. They've always been doing the "blowing up and breaking stuff" and not suffering it.

It's a combination of geography, no one having the sealift capacity anymore to try to invade us, and our nuclear deterrent making us effectively immune to invasion.

Oddly enough, with the except of having their own nuclear deterrent, that's also true for Australia as well,

Yes, but we have suffered direct attack on our continent, unlike the USA.

Yes, light raids by the Japanese as an attempted distraction to keep attention diverted from them attempting to take the Malay Barrier. Have you ever actually been invaded by a foreign power that was seriously attempting to conquer your country? Do you know the difference between an attack and an invasion for that matter?

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So, you don't disagree that your views are coloured by never having suffered direct attack or invasion?

Wait, seriously? We've never been invaded? I guess the War of 1812 never happened, huh. It's because of invasion by a foreign power early in our history that we got so damned obsessive about being able to keep it from ever happening again.

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I wonder, have you ever read H.G.Wells' "War of the Worlds" and understood it's message?

Yes, I've read it and understood it. I just don't make a habit of letting my views of history and military policy be influenced by science fiction writers.

Deterrence is the art of producing in the mind of the enemy... the FEAR to attack.

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Sir Spot of Borg

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Re: would you follow a murderer ?
Reply #64 - May 20^th, 2013 at 5:15am

Soren wrote on May 19^th, 2013 at 9:12pm:

Brian Ross wrote on May 19^th, 2013 at 1:47pm:

Thing is, you don't just reject it, you attack it and it's practitioners without mercy. You are as intolerant as the Takfiri Islamists, Soren. You are their mirror-image. As the old saying goes, with Islam, you have, "met your enemy and it is you."

You know why?
Because rejecting it doesn't make it go away. It is here to stay - and so it is here to be rejected, again and again.
Islam wants me to censor myself about criticising it.
Islam is not tolerant of anyone else except when they are prepared to pay the Islamic intolerance tax.

It deserves no accommodation, no tolerance because it gives none. If I was to advocate an additional tax for Muslims in Australia, as a way of buying tolerance from the non-Muslim majority, you would be howling and screaming like stuck pigs.

But that is precisely what Muslims do to non-Muslims in countries where Muslims rule the roost.

How smacking hypocritical and dishonest can you guys be??? Religion of Peace? More like religion of extortion, oppression and material opportunism.

Opportunism being the main characteristic. A bunch of fvckn carpet salesmen.

Be honest.

But you won't because it s against Islam to be honest with non-Muslims.

All muslims i have known havent cared what religion if any other ppl were. you are making out that a small group is the mainstream which is wrong.

SOB

Whaaaaaah!
I'm a
Moron!

- edited by some unethical admin - you think its funny? - its a slippery slope

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Sir Spot of Borg

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Re: would you follow a murderer ?
Reply #65 - May 20^th, 2013 at 5:22am

Soren wrote on May 19^th, 2013 at 9:25pm:

I am very sorry that this has to be pointed out but here are the facts:
People have been murdered by Mohammed and by orders of Mohammed. Mohammed was a warlord.
Jesus never killed anyone nor did he order the murder of anyone.
The Buddha never murdered anyone nor ordered the killing of anyone.

Christians and Buddhists have impossibly high standards to live up to. It I hard to be a true Christian or a true Buddhist.

Muslims have incredibly low standards to live down to. It is amazingly easy to be a good Muslims, no matter how many heinous things you do. Allah is the only god and Mohammed is his messenger. Say that and everything else committed in the furtherance of this little ditti will be regarded as jihad and martyrdom. You can do pretty much anything as long as Allah and Mohammed etc...

This is why you can be a Muslims and rip out the heart of a Syrian government soldier and eat it on youtube and STILL be regarded as a good Muslim.

Your god committed genocide a couple times didnt it?

Jesus:

Quote:

Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace but a sword. - Matt 10:34

I have come to bring fire to the earth. And how I wish it were blazing already! - Luke 12:49

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. - Matt 13:50

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. - Luke 19:27 (!!!)

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. - John 15:6

SOB

Whaaaaaah!
I'm a
Moron!

- edited by some unethical admin - you think its funny? - its a slippery slope

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Chimp_Logic

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Re: would you follow a murderer ?
Reply #66 - May 20^th, 2013 at 4:49pm

Soren wrote on May 19^th, 2013 at 10:52pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on May 19^th, 2013 at 10:44pm:

Soren wrote on May 19^th, 2013 at 10:37pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on May 19^th, 2013 at 10:20pm:

Soren wrote on May 19^th, 2013 at 10:07pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 19^th, 2013 at 9:56pm:

Complete rubbish. Miranda Devine and Alan Jones are still doing pretty well in the same job last time I looked.

Weren't they sued by Muslims for hurt feelings (funny how Muslims who murder in the defence of Mohammed have hurt feelings).

"I keeeel you because I am sensitive"

In Australia, you can be found guilty for laughing at direct quotes from the Koran in a Christian church.
That's how tolerant Muslims are.

1.42 million dead Iraqis since the illegal war was instigated by the criminal coalition of the willing (USA).

It was actually 1,427,787 million - and counting.
Have another look.

How much Oil was corporatized under the US fascist umbrella?

Have you determined what volume of Iraqi blood was spilt compared to the number of barrels of oil thieved in Western Iraq ??

You may need to have another look

I know you are one of those blood for oil imbeciles
.

Tell me this - why not just buy the fvckn oil on the free market and save loads of money on invasion costs?
Do you really, really think that the US invaded Iraq because they couldn't otherwise buy the oil they needed?

You can't be so short-sighted, surely?

Now why would the GREAT SOREN - THE MASTER OF TRUTH JUSTICE AND THE AMERICAN WAY - pose a question to little old me, the oil imbecile?

Why would the SUPREME SOREN demand an answer from the imbecile?

A FREAK CLOWN FASCIST PUPPET KNOWN AS SOREN!

SOREN THE CORPORATE SPIN PUPPET FREAK CLOWN MAGGOT

You infiltrate this holy place of discourse and worship and create a waft of putrid stench with your continual deceptions and immorality.

BEGONE WITH YOUR PATHETIC CARCASS OF DECEIT - THY FREAK OF FOUL PUTRID MORAL DECAY

Mini Ice Age (2014-2029)
Dr Sircus cures cancer with Baking Soda and Magnesium - Jethro the MENTAL GIANT & his flute madness

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: would you follow a murderer ? Reply #67 - May 20^th, 2013 at 9:22pm Scary.
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Soren

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Re: would you follow a murderer ?
Reply #68 - May 20^th, 2013 at 9:25pm

Brian Ross wrote on May 20^th, 2013 at 12:31am:

Soren wrote on May 19^th, 2013 at 10:38pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 19^th, 2013 at 10:25pm:

whats really funny is that after actually causing a riot against muslims, the worst blowback Alan Jones had to endure was to issue a lame arse apology on air. Muslims must have missed the memo to riot and behead Jones there Tongue

Jones caused a riot? Who knew?

Obviously missed the events in the lead up to the Cronulla Riots.

What? The bit about Muslim yoofs harassing people, especially women, on the beach for a long time and beating up a lifeguard who told them off for it?

No, I haven't missed the causes of the Cronulla riots.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: would you follow a murderer ? Reply #69 - May 21^st, 2013 at 6:33am He publicised, on air, the infamous text message that was circulating calling for the riot - plus an email with similar content. He then added his own sentiments about muslim "grubs" invading our beaches. If thats not incitement to violence I don't know what is.
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

Chimp_Logic

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Re: would you follow a murderer ?
Reply #70 - May 21^st, 2013 at 9:38am

Soren wrote on May 20^th, 2013 at 9:25pm:

Brian Ross wrote on May 20^th, 2013 at 12:31am:

Soren wrote on May 19^th, 2013 at 10:38pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 19^th, 2013 at 10:25pm:

Jones caused a riot? Who knew?

Obviously missed the events in the lead up to the Cronulla Riots.

Who is doing the harassing and committing the terrorist acts in the Middle East??

Don't tell me that you are blind as well as morally bankrupt?

Mini Ice Age (2014-2029)
Dr Sircus cures cancer with Baking Soda and Magnesium - Jethro the MENTAL GIANT & his flute madness

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: would you follow a murderer ? Reply #71 - May 21^st, 2013 at 11:56am The poor innocent victims of the Cronulla riots: Why couldn't those thuggish muslim-loving cops just let these peaceful upstanding white Australians exercise their right to freedom of "expression"??
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

Yadda

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Re: would you follow a murderer ?
Reply #72 - May 21^st, 2013 at 9:12pm

Chimp_Logic wrote on May 21^st, 2013 at 9:38am:

Soren wrote on May 20^th, 2013 at 9:25pm:

Brian Ross wrote on May 20^th, 2013 at 12:31am:

Soren wrote on May 19^th, 2013 at 10:38pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 19^th, 2013 at 10:25pm:

Jones caused a riot? Who knew?

Obviously missed the events in the lead up to the Cronulla Riots.

Who is doing the harassing and committing the terrorist acts in the Middle East??

Don't tell me that you are blind as well as morally bankrupt?

Know EXACTLY what ya mean Chimp_Logic!

There are car bombs going off every other day, with some moslems killing murdering other moslems - because they [moslems#1] don't believe as they believe [moslems#2].

THE RELIGION OF PEACE

http://thereligionofpeace.com/

Then there are all of the moslems wanting to destroy Israel and slaughter the Jews, to "wipe the Zionist state off the map"
- because the Jews don't believe as they believe.

IMAGE

THE TRUTH;
The ISLAMISTS throughout the region have declared time and time again, that there is not enough room in the Middle East for a non-moslem entity.

Even though ISRAEL, is the ancient and the only homeland of the Jewish people.

ISLAM and moslems have control of the vast majority of all of the land in the Middle East, but ISLAM refuses to allow any sovereign, non-moslem entity, to exist along side them there.

And all of the conflicts [throughout the region] are being fueled by moslem religious bigotry, caused by the adherents of ISLAM.

Where those moslems are 'righteously' murdering others [moslems and non-moslems] who do not believe as they believe.

« Last Edit: May 21^st, 2013 at 9:17pm by Yadda »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Soren

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Re: would you follow a murderer ?
Reply #73 - May 21^st, 2013 at 10:23pm

Racial hatred bill offers open slather to obnoxious

Date January 14, 2013 Paul Sheehan

'Vermin n.1.noxious, troublesome, or objectionable animals collect-ively, especially troublesome or disgusting insects …3. obnoxious persons collectively.'
Several years ago I wrote a book about vermin, the kind defined by the third meaning in the Macquarie Concise Dictionary. Researching the book required me to sit in courts for months and go out and interview dozens of people. The heroine of the book was a teenager named Tegan Wagner who had been gang-raped by a group of young Muslim men. She came from the Shire and as her case was nearing an end, and I was nearing completion of Girls Like You, the notorious Cronulla riot took place.
It was December 11, 2005. Wagner was there. ''When I heard about it, I wanted to go,'' she told me at the time.
''I'm a Shire girl. I've been going to Cronulla for years. I'd seen first-hand how people get treated, not by the local Lebanese, but by the Lebanese Muslims that come in from places like Bankstown and Riverwood. They treat our beaches like a sleazy nightclub. They treat young women like garbage. And as soon as you say anything, they are on their mobile phones, to 50 of their closest friends, and their mates come down and outnumber people. If it's guys, they will beat them up. If it's girls, they will terrorise them.''
After the riot, and the following violent rampage by Muslim men in convoys of cars, I interviewed dozens of people from the Shire and they all gave me variations of what a teacher at Cronulla High School told me: ''It's so disturbing that the images [of the riot] distributed around Australia and the world never mentioned the beatings, the provocations, the filth. They were not even discussed.
''Every girl I know has either been harassed or knows someone who's been harassed. It's not just young girls. I've been followed on numerous occasions. It's just constant harassment. The word 'slut' gets used all the time.''
None of this was aired at the time. The media's story had one theme, the Shire's white racism. A deafening silence about the real cause of the tension came from the feminists, much the same people now so indignant about white male misogyny.
Seven years later, nothing has changed. Now Fairfax Media is supporting the complaint by the NSW Premier, Barry O'Farrell, that nobody is being jailed for hate speech, which means the anti-discrimination laws should be toughened. The prime example used by Fairfax Media in its coverage was Alan Jones.
In the week before the Cronulla riot, Jones described the young Muslim men who for years had been sexually harassing women on the beach as ''vermin'' and ''mongrels'' who ''rape and pillage''. That was the context of his comments, a context which dropped away entirely as a prosecution for hate speech by the Administrative Decisions Tribunal dragged on for seven years. No mention was made in Sunday's news reports of the far more sinister and contemporaneous example of public hate speech on September 15 last year.
During a demonstration that turned violent in Sydney, some protesters carried provocative placards including one infamous message, ''Behead those who insult the Prophet''. Many wore headbands with Arabic script exhorting jihad. Among the chants was, ''Our dead are in paradise, your dead are in hell''.
Another telling moment came in the aftermath of the demonstration when supporters of a Muslim man charged with assaulting police refused to stand when the magistrate entered the court. It was a calculated act of disrespect for Australian law.

Read more: [url=http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/racial-hatred-bill-offers-open-slather-to-obnoxious-20130113-2cnf1.html][/url]

Interestingly, and significantly, the Cronulla riots were a small Australian crusade: response to prolonged encroachment, harrassment, intrusion, provocation.
But as with the crusades, so with Cronulla - what both was a response to is suppressed and both stories start with the west hitting back, as if unprovoked, as if out of a spontaneous manifestation of its inherent badness.
But this is not true for the crusades and not true for the Cronulla riots.

Those young Muslims harrassing the women on the beach for years - why did they do that? What's your answer to that, Muslims? ANd if someone reminded them that calling strangers sluts is not on in this country (as it isn't in the countries their fa,ilies com from), why beat up such people, Muslims? WHat is the answer?

It is not the posting white rioters' pictures. Starting with the hitting back? Again? Claiming victimhood, again? That little hiding place, Muslim victimhood in the west, has worn off a long, long time ago. They are given every opportunity and assistance to fit in. If they don't, they have to ask themselves, why not?

I would like to see Muslim acknowledging that they acted provocatively, obnoxiously, harrassingly, violently for a long time.

« Last Edit: May 21^st, 2013 at 10:31pm by Soren »

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: would you follow a murderer ? Reply #74 - May 22^nd, 2013 at 9:32am There's been a turf war between the 'westies' and the locals at Cronulla for years - and its not about Lebanese and whities. Little known fact - there was a non-racial riot between the two (mostly white) rivals in January 2005 - less than 12 months before the famous riot.
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

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