Australian Politics Forum - would you follow a murderer ?

Socrates

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Re: would you follow a murderer ?
Reply #15 - May 18^th, 2013 at 2:12pm

Brian Ross wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 2:02pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 5:11am:

Still no explanation of what this thread is about?

SOB

Surely you should know by now, SOB? It is about the thousand and one ways in which Muslims can be blamed for all the problems in the world.

Used to be Jews but now they've switched their attentions to the Muslims. Roll Eyes

Come, come now......I think there's a vast difference between what the Muslims are doing to the world, and what the Jews had to endure.

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An intellectual is a man who takes more words than necessary to tell more than he knows.

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Brian Ross

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Re: would you follow a murderer ?
Reply #16 - May 18^th, 2013 at 2:53pm

Socrates wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 2:12pm:

Brian Ross wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 2:02pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 5:11am:

Still no explanation of what this thread is about?

SOB

Surely you should know by now, SOB? It is about the thousand and one ways in which Muslims can be blamed for all the problems in the world.

Used to be Jews but now they've switched their attentions to the Muslims. Roll Eyes

Come, come now......I think there's a vast difference between what the Muslims are doing to the world, and what the Jews had to endure.

So, every Muslim is guilty of what every other Muslim may have done, in your eyes, I take it? Roll Eyes

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Soren

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Re: would you follow a murderer ?
Reply #17 - May 18^th, 2013 at 10:19pm

Brian Ross wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 2:53pm:

Socrates wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 2:12pm:

Brian Ross wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 2:02pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 5:11am:

Still no explanation of what this thread is about?

SOB

Surely you should know by now, SOB? It is about the thousand and one ways in which Muslims can be blamed for all the problems in the world.

Used to be Jews but now they've switched their attentions to the Muslims. Roll Eyes

Come, come now......I think there's a vast difference between what the Muslims are doing to the world, and what the Jews had to endure.

So, every Muslim is guilty of what every other Muslim may have done, in your eyes, I take it? Roll Eyes

Well, what do you accept about Islam as being valid for all humans?

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Brian Ross

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Re: would you follow a murderer ?
Reply #18 - May 18^th, 2013 at 11:20pm

Soren wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 10:19pm:

Brian Ross wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 2:53pm:

Socrates wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 2:12pm:

Brian Ross wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 2:02pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 5:11am:

Still no explanation of what this thread is about?

SOB

Surely you should know by now, SOB? It is about the thousand and one ways in which Muslims can be blamed for all the problems in the world.

Used to be Jews but now they've switched their attentions to the Muslims. Roll Eyes

Come, come now......I think there's a vast difference between what the Muslims are doing to the world, and what the Jews had to endure.

So, every Muslim is guilty of what every other Muslim may have done, in your eyes, I take it? Roll Eyes

Well, what do you accept about Islam as being valid for all humans?

Erecting a strawman again, Soren? You really are doing so well with that Thatching Class you've enrolled in. Roll Eyes

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It seems that I have upset a Moderator and are forbidden from using memes. So much for Freedom of Speech. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: would you follow a murderer ? Reply #19 - May 18^th, 2013 at 11:25pm Clever. When you have to show your hand - it's a strawman. And you have many other similar evasive techniques.
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Brian Ross

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Re: would you follow a murderer ?
Reply #20 - May 18^th, 2013 at 11:30pm

Soren wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 11:25pm:

Clever. When you have to show your hand - it's a strawman.
And you have many other similar evasive techniques.

So, Soren, have you stopped beating your wife yet? Grin

That is the equivalent of what you're asking.

Where have I ever claimed that, "Islam is valid for all humans?" Mmmm? Roll Eyes

If you're going to use dishonest debating tactics, please at least be a little more creative? Grin

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It seems that I have upset a Moderator and are forbidden from using memes. So much for Freedom of Speech. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: would you follow a murderer ? Reply #21 - May 18^th, 2013 at 11:52pm Indeed Soren - where does Brian say that islam is valid for all humans?
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

Grey Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5341 Gender:	Re: would you follow a murderer ? Reply #22 - May 19^th, 2013 at 12:11am Maybe, kinda of a femme fatale attraction, but I don't recall any seriously attractive murderers outside of fiction.
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Chard

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Re: would you follow a murderer ?
Reply #23 - May 19^th, 2013 at 9:44am

Brian Ross wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 1:59pm:

Civilian employee? How are your forced days on unpaid leave going? Appears the Republicans don't want you do this sort of stuff either... Grin

Hasn't effected me at all. I work for the the USDOD's Defense Intelligence Agency, so we're exempt from the furloughs due to national security reasons.

Quote:

The sledehammer unfortunately tends to kill not only the intended target but also everybody around them for a distance of many kilometres (if Nukes are being used). No finess at all, when a single bullet could achieve the same ends.

As the RUssians say, "quantity has a quality all its own." Sometimes you just need a single bullet, sometimes you need a time-on-target barrage with four artillery brigades in support. Depends on operational needs and availablity of assets.

Quote:

He meant morally, not financially... Roll Eyes

What's more moral, using enough force to bring hostilities to a stop as soon as possible or use so little force that it prolongs the conflict and increases the likelihood that more people will die? It's a case of which you think is the lesser evil. As General Lemay said, "all war is immoral".

Quote:

My problem isn't with the killing of those who deserve to die. It is with the sledgehammer approach that creates massive "collateral damage" without concern as to the ongoing consequences... Roll Eyes

Again, General Lemay said it best, "There are no innocent civilians. It is their government and you are fighting a people, you are not trying to fight an armed force anymore. So it doesn't bother me so much to be killing the so-called innocent bystanders."

When you go to war with another country you're engaging in a contest of wills. One side or the other cannot win until they break the will of the their opponent to continue the conflict, and the only way to do that is to kill their people and break their stuff until they are either unable or unwilling to continue to fight back. Anyone that fails to understand this simply needs to stay the hell away from warfare.

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Deterrence is the art of producing in the mind of the enemy... the FEAR to attack.

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Soren

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Re: would you follow a murderer ?
Reply #24 - May 19^th, 2013 at 10:41am

Brian Ross wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 11:30pm:

Soren wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 11:25pm:

Clever. When you have to show your hand - it's a strawman.
And you have many other similar evasive techniques.

So, Soren, have you stopped beating your wife yet? Grin

That is the equivalent of what you're asking.

Where have I ever claimed that, "Islam is valid for all humans?" Mmmm? Roll Eyes

If you're going to use dishonest debating tactics, please at least be a little more creative? Grin

You call people bigots if they reject Islam completely.

But if Islam has no universally applicable aspects then it has no aspects that ought to be accepted.

Therefore it can be - and is - rejected completely.

So rejecting it completely is not bigoted and you are just deploying empty-headed puffery and posturing, not any valid arguments.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: would you follow a murderer ? Reply #25 - May 19^th, 2013 at 10:50am Dear me Soren, you seem to be debating with an imaginary Brian. Again, where does he say that people who reject islam completely are bigots?
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Sir Spot of Borg Gold Member Offline WE ARE BORG Posts: 26515 Australia	Re: would you follow a murderer ? Reply #26 - May 19^th, 2013 at 1:36pm Sir Spot of Borg wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 5:11am: Still no explanation of what this thread is about? SOB Asking what the thread is about. Not understanding that basic fact is you in a nutshell. SOB
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Sir Spot of Borg

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Re: would you follow a murderer ?
Reply #27 - May 19^th, 2013 at 1:37pm

Brian Ross wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 2:02pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 5:11am:

Still no explanation of what this thread is about?

SOB

Surely you should know by now, SOB? It is about the thousand and one ways in which Muslims can be blamed for all the problems in the world.

Used to be Jews but now they've switched their attentions to the Muslims. Roll Eyes

Ahhh. Yeah well it wasnt clear but that explains a few things.

SOB

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Brian Ross

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Re: would you follow a murderer ?
Reply #28 - May 19^th, 2013 at 1:37pm

Chard wrote on May 19^th, 2013 at 9:44am:

Brian Ross wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 1:59pm:

Civilian employee? How are your forced days on unpaid leave going? Appears the Republicans don't want you do this sort of stuff either... Grin

Hasn't effected me at all. I work for the the USDOD's Defense Intelligence Agency, so we're exempt from the furloughs due to national security reasons.

DIA and posting here? Sure...

Quote:

Quote:

The sledehammer unfortunately tends to kill not only the intended target but also everybody around them for a distance of many kilometres (if Nukes are being used). No finess at all, when a single bullet could achieve the same ends.

As the RUssians say, "quantity has a quality all its own." Sometimes you just need a single bullet, sometimes you need a time-on-target barrage with four artillery brigades in support. Depends on operational needs and availablity of assets.

ToT is a poor man's use of his artillery. If the US followed the Russians, they'd have Artillery Divisions. Grin

Killing innocent non-combatants doesn't achieve much except murder. It has never broken "the will" of any nation. It has merely hardened resolve. In WWII where we saw the most massive bombing campaigns in Europe, it wasn't until the Russians fought their way into the seat of government in Berlin that we saw the German's surrender. In Japan, even despite the Atomic bombings, the Japanese government intended to fight on until the Emperor's intervention. I'd suggest "blowing things up and killing people" wasn't a particularly successful strategy.

It also invariably enbitters the population against you and your cause even further. That is has always been the problem for Americans who think war is about death and mayhem. They have never understood the writings of von Clausewitz or even more esoterically, Sun Tzu.

Quote:

Quote:

He meant morally, not financially... Roll Eyes

What's more moral, using enough force to bring hostilities to a stop as soon as possible or use so little force that it prolongs the conflict and increases the likelihood that more people will die? It's a case of which you think is the lesser evil. As General Lemay said, "all war is immoral".

Which is more moral? Killing or non-killing? If you kill en masse you're just as guilty of murder as if you kill singly IMHO.

Quote:

Quote:

My problem isn't with the killing of those who deserve to die. It is with the sledgehammer approach that creates massive "collateral damage" without concern as to the ongoing consequences... Roll Eyes

Again, General Lemay said it best, "There are no innocent civilians. It is their government and you are fighting a people, you are not trying to fight an armed force anymore. So it doesn't bother me so much to be killing the so-called innocent bystanders."

Yes, but Lemay was a lunatic who wanted to unleash nuclear war on the world simply because he couldn't understand the concept of restraint (nor it appears as has been revealed since, lawful commands from his superiors). He also wrote that at time of unlimited war, such wars today are impossible because of the probable consequences.

He also seems to believe that the common people are in control of their government. In most cases, they aren't, their government has been imposed on them by a select few within society and they are powerless to change it. Iraq being a perfect case in point.

Quote:

When you go to war with another country you're engaging in a contest of wills. One side or the other cannot win until they break the will of the their opponent to continue the conflict, and the only way to do that is to kill their people and break their stuff until they are either unable or unwilling to continue to fight back. Anyone that fails to understand this simply needs to stay the hell away from warfare.

And so you ignore over a millennia of just war theory and of course over five centuries of the laws of war development.

I've always felt the problem with US attitudes towards war is that they've never been invaded nor had war carried on into their cities from afar. They fail to understand the consequences of modern war, unlike those who have experienced it or been willing to learn from that experience. They've always been doing the "blowing up and breaking stuff" and not suffering it. Roll Eyes

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Sir Spot of Borg

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Re: would you follow a murderer ?
Reply #29 - May 19^th, 2013 at 1:39pm

Socrates wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 2:12pm:

Brian Ross wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 2:02pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 5:11am:

Still no explanation of what this thread is about?

SOB

Surely you should know by now, SOB? It is about the thousand and one ways in which Muslims can be blamed for all the problems in the world.

Used to be Jews but now they've switched their attentions to the Muslims. Roll Eyes

Come, come now......I think there's a vast difference between what the Muslims are doing to the world, and what the Jews had to endure.

The jews that are around today are not the ones that "endured'. the ones today are the ones doing the bullying.

sob

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I'm a
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