Australian Politics Forum - Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?

polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism? Reply #240 - May 16^th, 2013 at 9:48am Do you have a point to make Baron? Where is the contradiction? How do those ahadith contradict the quran? Where does it say in the quran that stoning for adultery is NOT allowed?
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #241 - May 16^th, 2013 at 10:30am

Yadda wrote on May 16^th, 2013 at 9:45am:

Then why would the hadith emphasise that words of Mohammed ?

Why would Mohammed utter those specific phrases ?

AGAIN...

Allah's Apostle said,

"I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy)...."

hadith/bukhari #004.052.220

".....I have been given superiority......; I have been helped by terror (in the hearts of enemies):....."

hadithsunnah/muslim/ #004.1062

Again, there is nothing in this passage that suggests conducting acts of physical terrorism. As your own quote says, it is fear cast "in the hearts of enemies". Another hadith using the same word ("R'ub") helps make more sense of this:

Quote:

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: "I was given victory through Ru`b (fear and anxiety): the enemy becomes filled with Ru`b (fear and anxiety) even though they are the distance of a month's journey away from me."

It is unlikely the prophet was waging a terrorist campaign against an enemy a month's distance away. Clearly this is talking about a psychological effect - for muslims, this can be attributed to God literally casting fear into the hearts of the enemy, but a non-muslim explanation could easily be simply the enemy - who were constantly trying to wipe out the small muslim nation - simply became disheartened by their failure, in spite of their numerical superiority, and were fearful or "terrorised" because of this.

Another hadith clarifies 'Ru'b' in this context even further:

Quote:

Al-Waqidi said in his, Maghazi , that Juwairiyah Bint al-Harith said, “ We were at the Muraisii` area when the Messenger of Allah marched forth towards us. I heard my father say, ‘There has come to us a gathering that we cannot resist.' I saw men and horses in such numbers that I cannot describe. After I became Muslim and the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, married me I looked at the Muslims and found their numbers to be less than what I had thought. I knew that this was Ru'b (excessive fear) that Allah, the Exalted, throws in the hearts of the polytheists.'”

http://islamnewsroom.com/news-we-need/1581-lies-about-muhammad#25

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Soren

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #242 - May 16^th, 2013 at 10:46am

polite_gandalf wrote on May 15^th, 2013 at 11:28pm:

Soren wrote on May 15^th, 2013 at 9:27pm:

So all the nice Muslim speaking out against suicide bombings are hindered by the actual texts of Islam which they are not permitted to contradict.

Suicide bombings directly disobey about 3 explicit commands spelled out in the Quran, so that makes absolutely no sense.

ARe you really trying to tell me that Muslim terrorism is not inspired and explained and justified on Islamic grounds by those who carry out and support or condone or excuse those terrorist acts?
That they are shouting allahu akhbar by a mysterious and inexplicable coincidence?

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Yadda

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #243 - May 16^th, 2013 at 11:03am

Soren wrote on May 16^th, 2013 at 10:46am:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 15^th, 2013 at 11:28pm:

Soren wrote on May 15^th, 2013 at 9:27pm:

So all the nice Muslim speaking out against suicide bombings are hindered by the actual texts of Islam which they are not permitted to contradict.

Suicide bombings directly disobey about 3 explicit commands spelled out in the Quran, so that makes absolutely no sense.

ARe you really trying to tell me that Muslim terrorism is not inspired and explained and justified on Islamic grounds by those who carry out and support or condone or excuse those terrorist acts?

That they are shouting allahu akhbar by a mysterious and inexplicable coincidence?

gandalf is;

#1, off the planet.
#2, he is simply demonstrating typical moslem duplicity [in explaining the inexplicable].

i'm going for #2

+++

exploring #1,

There is a medical condition, which describes moslem attitudes [mindset], called.....

Cognitive dissonance
Cognitive dissonance is a psychological term to define the condition that results whenever an individual attempts to hold two incompatible, if not contradictory, thoughts at the same time even in the face of mounting evidence to the contrary.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

Dictionary;
cognitive dissonance = = the state of having inconsistent thoughts, beliefs, or attitudes.

The Reality of Cognitive Dissonance among Muslim Apologists
By Syed M. Islam
".....Having mingled with several Islamists and seeking to learn from their arguments with empathy and interpersonal respect, it is my opinion that, among many of them, cognitive dissonance is a reverberating reality. My opinion is based upon first-hand evidence gathered over two years. The evidence confirms a dangerous and disturbing dig of denial among many Muslim apologists."
http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/MunirIslam40206.htm

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #244 - May 16^th, 2013 at 11:23am

Soren wrote on May 16^th, 2013 at 10:46am:

ARe you really trying to tell me that Muslim terrorism is not inspired and explained and justified on Islamic grounds by those who carry out and support or condone or excuse those terrorist acts?
That they are shouting allahu akhbar by a mysterious and inexplicable coincidence?

Now where did I say that?

Muslim terrorists absolutely believe they are acting on behalf of islam - so what?

All this proves is that you, Yadda, moses etc share something in common with these terrorists: you all have a misinformed, distorted understanding of islamic doctrine - an understanding that the vast majority of muslims reject.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Brian Ross

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #245 - May 16^th, 2013 at 11:36am

Soren wrote on May 16^th, 2013 at 10:46am:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 15^th, 2013 at 11:28pm:

Soren wrote on May 15^th, 2013 at 9:27pm:

So all the nice Muslim speaking out against suicide bombings are hindered by the actual texts of Islam which they are not permitted to contradict.

Suicide bombings directly disobey about 3 explicit commands spelled out in the Quran, so that makes absolutely no sense.

ARe you really trying to tell me that Muslim terrorism is not inspired and explained and justified on Islamic grounds by those who carry out and support or condone or excuse those terrorist acts?
That they are shouting allahu akhbar by a mysterious and inexplicable coincidence?

Perhaps they're telling you fibs, Soren?

Maybe it's time you realised that the Takfiri Islamists aren't using the same interpretation as everybody else does of the same texts?

Nah, of course not, in your mind all Muslims are the same, think the same, act the same, like little tin robots... Roll Eyes

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It seems that I have upset a Moderator and are forbidden from using memes. So much for Freedom of Speech. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Yadda

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #246 - May 16^th, 2013 at 11:57am

Brian Ross wrote on May 16^th, 2013 at 11:36am:

Soren wrote on May 16^th, 2013 at 10:46am:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 15^th, 2013 at 11:28pm:

Soren wrote on May 15^th, 2013 at 9:27pm:

So all the nice Muslim speaking out against suicide bombings are hindered by the actual texts of Islam which they are not permitted to contradict.

Suicide bombings directly disobey about 3 explicit commands spelled out in the Quran, so that makes absolutely no sense.

ARe you really trying to tell me that Muslim terrorism is not inspired and explained and justified on Islamic grounds by those who carry out and support or condone or excuse those terrorist acts?
That they are shouting allahu akhbar by a mysterious and inexplicable coincidence?

Perhaps they're telling you fibs, Soren?

Maybe it's time you realised that the Takfiri Islamists aren't using the same interpretation as everybody else does of the same texts?

Nah, of course not, in your mind all Muslims are the same, think the same, act the same, like little tin robots... Roll Eyes

'the same interpretation' ?

Brian_Ross,

I am not a moslem, and the moslem [Koranic] texts seem pretty clear to me.

#1,
Koran texts plainly declare enmity and warfare against those who refuse to believe what moslems believe.

#2,
Moslems obediently express their enmity and warfare against those who refuse to believe what moslems believe, by killing them - even declaring their religious motives.

Brian_Ross,

Why do you refuse to acknowledge the obvious connection between ISLAM, and ISLAMIC inspired violence towards those who refuse to believe what moslems believe ???

"Fighting [against unbelievers] is prescribed for you, and [if] ye dislike it.....Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
Koran 2.216

"Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah:"
Koran 003.028

"O ye who believe! Take not for friends unbelievers rather than believers: Do ye wish to offer Allah an open proof against yourselves?"
Koran 004.144

"....take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends....
......he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them."
Koran 5.51

"O ye who believe! Take not into your intimacy those outside your ranks: They will not fail to corrupt you. They only desire your ruin: Rank hatred has already appeared from their mouths: What their hearts conceal is far worse....."
Koran 3.118

"....the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies."
Koran 4.101

"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123

"Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain:...."
Koran 9.111

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29

"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him;...."
Koran 3.85

"And fight with them until.....religion should be only for Allah,..."
Koran 2.193

"Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' ...."
hadithsunnah/bukhari #004.052.196

"......the curse of Allah is on those without Faith."
Koran 2.089

"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98

"....those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11

"...And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of [i.e. for] those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?...Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan:.."
Koran 4.74-76

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #247 - May 16^th, 2013 at 12:08pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 16^th, 2013 at 11:23am:

Soren wrote on May 16^th, 2013 at 10:46am:

ARe you really trying to tell me that Muslim terrorism is not inspired and explained and justified on Islamic grounds by those who carry out and support or condone or excuse those terrorist acts?
That they are shouting allahu akhbar by a mysterious and inexplicable coincidence?

Now where did I say that?

Muslim terrorists absolutely believe they are acting on behalf of islam - so what?

All this proves is that you,

Yadda, moses etc share something in common with these terrorists: you all have a misinformed, distorted understanding of islamic doctrine - an understanding that the vast majority of muslims reject.

No gandalf.

I have another, an alternative opinion.

In barefacedly refusing to acknowledge the obvious [that moslem violence is explained by ISLAMIC texts inspiring moslem violence duh! duh! duh!]
you are;

#1, off the planet.
#2, you are simply demonstrating typical moslem duplicity [in 'explaining' the inexplicable].

i'm going for #2

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #248 - May 16^th, 2013 at 12:15pm

I look at it a different way Yadda:

Most muslims do not engage in violence, nor support it.

For me this is evidence that muslim NON violence is explained by islamic texts, inspiring muslim non violence duh! duh! duh!

I am certainly happy to acknowledge that I am not from the same planet as you Yadda.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Brian Ross Gold Member Offline Representative of me Posts: 44327	Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism? Reply #249 - May 16^th, 2013 at 12:19pm I'm not! Yadda seems to have descended from the Dungeon Dimension - all arms, legs, mouths, hungers and no brains backing the lot, just instinct!
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Yadda

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #250 - May 16^th, 2013 at 12:36pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 16^th, 2013 at 12:15pm:

I look at it a different way Yadda:

Most muslims do not engage in violence, nor support it.

That is merely a claim on reality.

Not a fact.iHere is a fact;

A moslem, is a moslem.

"Allah is my god, and Mohammed is his prophet."

[i.e. the Allah, and the Mohammed, as described in the Koran and Hadith]

By declaring;

"I am a moslem."

;

.....a moslem, every moslem, is directly associating themselves with the 'religious' violence which ISLAM justifies, legitimises, promotes and encourages [as a philosophy].

And every moslem is thereby associating >> themselves << with those violent acts which are purposefully being done, 'in the name of Allah'.i

Quote:

For me this is evidence that muslim NON violence is explained by islamic texts, inspiring muslim non violence duh! duh! duh!

yadda said.....
Quote:

.....in those places where moslems do not have authority, sowing and nurturing confusion, and avoiding being pinned down to making direct definitions, and prolonging delays in 'coming to knowledge'......seem to be the main order of business.

Dictionary;
obfuscate = =
1 make unclear or unintelligible.
2 bewilder.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #251 - May 16^th, 2013 at 1:10pm

Yadda wrote on May 16^th, 2013 at 12:36pm:

That is merely a claim on reality.

Not a fact.

Oh good - at least we're back on topic now.

Just to jog your memory Yadda - its *YOUR* claim that mainstream muslims promote violence - a claim that you still, after 17 pages, have yet to substantiate. It is not my job to disprove your own baseless claim. As FD would say, I can't prove a negative.

Therefore in the absense of any evidence to support your claim, we default to the position that mainstream muslims do not in fact promote violence.

Indeed if 1.5 billion muslims really did go rampaging around committing or promoting violence - I can't imagine there would be much of this world left.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Soren

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #252 - May 16^th, 2013 at 1:49pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 16^th, 2013 at 11:23am:

Soren wrote on May 16^th, 2013 at 10:46am:

ARe you really trying to tell me that Muslim terrorism is not inspired and explained and justified on Islamic grounds by those who carry out and support or condone or excuse those terrorist acts?
That they are shouting allahu akhbar by a mysterious and inexplicable coincidence?

Now where did I say that?

Muslim terrorists absolutely believe they are acting on behalf of islam - so what?

All this proves is that you, Yadda, moses etc share something in common with these terrorists: you all have a misinformed, distorted understanding of islamic doctrine - an understanding that the vast majority of muslims reject.

If there is no recognised, common authority both you and the terrorist accept (as all muslims here on this forum and around the world never tire to remind the rest of us) - - how do you know that the terrorists are wrong about Islam. Maybe you are wrong.

More to the point, how do I know that they are wrong and not you?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #253 - May 16^th, 2013 at 2:59pm

Because the terrorists are in the minority?

Thats it in a nutshell. If you are taught and practice islam through the mainstream channels, (as I have), you won't be taught the message of violence and intolerance. As I pointed out right at the beginning of this thread with the MI5 study - you have to go *OUTSIDE* of mainstream islam to get radicalised into supporting violence and extremism.

Just to take a single example of how off the extremists are: how can you believe in suicide bombing if the Quran *SPECIFICALLY* condemns suicide? Does it say anywhere that only some suicides are forbidden? No - all suicides are forbidden. So how can it possibly be justified? Answer - only if you are a loony extremist.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #254 - May 16^th, 2013 at 6:33pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 16^th, 2013 at 2:59pm:

how can you believe in suicide bombing if the Quran *SPECIFICALLY* condemns suicide? Does it say anywhere that only some suicides are forbidden? No - all suicides are forbidden. So how can it possibly be justified? Answer - only if you are a loony extremist.

Yes the quran does forbid suicide does it forbid martyrdom operations?

Typical muslim horse manure on the subject from unreliable wiki with Islam-
www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahid

Quote:

Thus despite attempts to discredit martyrdom operations by the modernists,by those who seek to pacify and tame Islam, and by those who align themselves with the kuffar,It is clear that martyrdom operations are justified and lawful, according to Islam.

Link-http://www.web.archive.org/web/20040823223253/http://www.muslimcreed.com/index.p...

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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